Author Topic: Fuck Sexism  (Read 98420 times)

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1005 on: September 06, 2011, 08:20:12 pm »
It's worth reiterating that, while neither sex (nor any trans or intersex) should be barred from social activities or behavioral outlets available to the other, the institution of gender was deliberately built for the "feminine" to be inferior. Gender corrupts females into domestic organs for the bearing and rearing of children, servants for the performance of menial labor, and obedient to their male overseers. Count the doubloons of humanistic social endeavor available under the framework of masculinity, and under that of femininity, and see for yourself the two are not even remotely equal. Were it not for the blindness of societies when it comes to recognizing the importance of rearing children, and the coincidental fact that most domestic activities have the potential to be enjoyable, females would have almost nothing.

tushantin

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5645
  • Under Your Moonlight, Stealing Your Stars
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1006 on: September 06, 2011, 08:49:09 pm »
Were it not for the blindness of societies when it comes to recognizing the importance of rearing children, and the coincidental fact that most domestic activities have the potential to be enjoyable, females would have almost nothing.
Just a note: you're heavily misinformed. Society isn't really blind to the importance of rearing a child. Problem with feminism is that if the male care for the women, feminists think they're undermining the gender, and when the males ignore women's labor, feminists think they're blind to the importance. It's a frustrating cycle that most... gahh, what's the word... people like to dance around trying to count winning pointless battles to a petty war.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1007 on: September 06, 2011, 09:03:43 pm »
Just a note: you're heavily misinformed.

No, I am not. You are just particularly stubborn--which I can almost admire because I recognize where that comes from! However, I have very little patience for your selective focus on opposing the proponents of sexual equality, rather than trying to promote sexual equality in your own way. It smells too much like the tactics of sexists.

You have a lot to learn and a lot of personal prides to overcome before you will ever have the opportunity to legitimately tell me that I am heavily misinformed on any matter of sexual equality I undertake to discuss. Approaching me with that kind of a confrontation in the meantime is pointless and self-defeating, not to mention a distraction from your own studies and a burden on whatever time I can afford to spend to correct you.

tushantin

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5645
  • Under Your Moonlight, Stealing Your Stars
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1008 on: September 06, 2011, 09:29:30 pm »
Just a note: you're heavily misinformed.

No, I am not. You are just particularly stubborn--which I can almost admire because I recognize where that comes from! However, I have very little patience for your selective focus on opposing the proponents of sexual equality, rather than trying to promote sexual equality in your own way. It smells too much like the tactics of sexists.
Sigh. That's the problem with people like you humans: pointless generalization that blinds you from achieving absolute truth. For some reason, if a person points out something wrong in your ideology you immediately assume -- wait, did I say assume? -- I mean, you immediately label the person as an opposition or a foe. I've noticed these patterns emerge in various discussions and arguments, regardless of my points, and even you aren't excluded, Lord J. But here's something interesting to note: these generalizations, especially in mode of arguments, actually end up amplifying tribalism factors by ten-fold, which completely defeats the purpose of ridding yourselves of discrimination.

I digress; right now, I'm not even concerned about offenses by either you or me, nor am I concerned about sexists and feminists. Instead, I worry, and I worry about wretched captivity of thoughts. Of course, not just yours.

Anywhos, back to the topic. If you're so concerned about "smells too much like sexist", then believe me, I speak in the very language you folks do here (not the sexist bit, but the general-and-over moral government and judgement).

Also, my pride or yours? All I stated was an honest, straight-forward response from what I observed. Also, that was neither an invitation to a confrontation nor challenge this time, but a simple opinion on where you're being mislead. If you really want to promote gender equality then fix what's wrong with your reasoning and try again, because I'm all for that promotion.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1009 on: September 07, 2011, 01:49:50 am »
Tushantin, I could certainly do a better job of interacting with you here. My own impatience is to blame for that. The rest you will have to amend yourself. I take no responsibility for your ignorance on these gravest of matters or the cocksurety with which you adhere to your hearsay. You are in the company of multiple people who have a great deal to offer you, and you in return have much to offer of yourself, and yet you speak absurdly on issues you clearly understand little about, and remain steadfast when confronted with anything other than abject congeniality.

Most people who aren't broken of will act as though they are justified in whatever view they care to hold. Unquestioning, uncritical, self-validation. It's a form of faith. It poisons the cause of our Civilization, which is precisely to escape from that indefensible stronghold of personal infallibility. You speak with such poise at times when you question the nature of the world and wonder what the consequences of your existence and behaviors shall be, yet your alternations between reasonable inquisitiveness and sheer mookery strain my already deficient patience to a place where I honestly can't find the energy to participate in the conversations we ought to be having.

Any underlying valid observations you might be making--and I can potentially see where you are coming from--are lost in the errancy of your positions. Societies do undervalue the importance of education. If they did not, we would not be where we are. Feminists are not the garbage you paint them out to be. I don't pluck these observations out of the air. I have learned them. While I don't expect you to take me at my word, I know for myself the difference between most valid and invalid comments on subjects like these. I don't engage on subjects I don't understand very well, and I am telling you that you have an awful lot to learn and will benefit immensely from giving up your flippant disregard of good ideas simply because they do not fit your preexisting beliefs. Persist, and you lose your relevance as an agent of progress. You want to be treated like a schmott guy, you gotta earn it.

tushantin

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5645
  • Under Your Moonlight, Stealing Your Stars
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1010 on: September 07, 2011, 08:16:15 am »
Meh, your response was predictable. Anywhos, here goes:

Tushantin, I could certainly do a better job of interacting with you here. My own impatience is to blame for that. The rest you will have to amend yourself. I take no responsibility for your ignorance on these gravest of matters or the cocksurety with which you adhere to your hearsay. You are in the company of multiple people who have a great deal to offer you, and you in return have much to offer of yourself, and yet you speak absurdly on issues you clearly understand little about, and remain steadfast when confronted with anything other than abject congeniality.
There is a lot of insights you folks offer, and I read them frequently. But that "I take no responsibility for your ignorance" statement itself laughable, because I never asked for your support. To top it, you let your "black or white" bias creep into almost every important discussion which simply ruins the potential of perfecting ideas you staunchly support. My point for the initial statement -- and as a brother, no less -- was that if you're a feminist then find flaws in your reasoning and fix them to keep them headstrong instead of ignore them and go about accusing the fleeting wind. The statement you're trying to defend is laughably superficial.

Most people who aren't broken of will act as though they are justified in whatever view they care to hold. Unquestioning, uncritical, self-validation. It's a form of faith. It poisons the cause of our Civilization, which is precisely to escape from that indefensible stronghold of personal infallibility.
Seriously, man. You ought to take your own advise from time to time.  :? You often told me to take criticism as an opportunity to refine my own thoughts, and I have often, but I certainly don't see you doing it; can't believe a simple, open opinion got you worked up so much. So much that I feel the necessity to throw the word hypocrite at you.

You speak with such poise at times when you question the nature of the world and wonder what the consequences of your existence and behaviors shall be, yet your alternations between reasonable inquisitiveness and sheer mookery strain my already deficient patience to a place where I honestly can't find the energy to participate in the conversations we ought to be having.
Yeah, I'm a mook (trying to become a Super-Mook). And so are you. And so is everybody here. And so are the people governing us. Ah, fine, if you think my participation ticks you off, so be it. Apparently, you're not in the right frame of mind to interpret my initial positive opinion or even consider it; very well, I'll cease from replying to crucial topics.

...are lost in the errancy of your positions.
Errancy. *twitches* Errancy.

Feminists are not the garbage you paint them out to be.
My intention wasn't to paint Feminists as garbage (I could have clarified that initially, but I'm trying to keep the phase of language that you people are familiar with); TBH I support them, and often participate in rallies that help cultural evolution that give genders equal rights. But alas, you wouldn't see what I mean, because: remember what I said about the inability to see beyond Black or White? Even you aren't excluded to the rule.

I don't pluck these observations out of the air. I have learned them. While I don't expect you to take me at my word, I know for myself the difference between most valid and invalid comments on subjects like these.
(Falls over laughing)

...I am telling you that you have an awful lot to learn and will benefit immensely from giving up your flippant disregard of good ideas simply because they do not fit your preexisting beliefs. Persist, and you lose your relevance as an agent of progress. You want to be treated like a schmott guy, you gotta earn it.
Firstly, I ask you: who are you to judge what I believe or what I want to be treated like? Can you elaborate on what I actually believe? If so, I'm waiting.

Secondly, I realize I have a lot to learn. Thirdly, I don't disregard good ideas (I'm not such a mook), rather I find flaws in it simply to transform them into better ideas, and that helps me progress faster than an ordinary fellow -- I don't settle with things that just sound good on paper; that's a philosophy I borrowed from a friend, an artist from the Compendium and took it to a whole new level. But your persistent beliefs seem to cloud you from your judgement, trying to paint the opposition in a color and yourself as free of bounds -- that kind of delusion will always drag you back from proper civil, empathetic progress.

Anywhos, as I promised, I'll stay away from discussions like this. Sorry for wasting your time; you're on your own, Josh.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10795
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1011 on: September 07, 2011, 03:23:31 pm »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_to_moderation

The answers to some questions are most certainly black or white.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1012 on: September 07, 2011, 05:33:41 pm »
Responding to one of your old posts, Tush, was on my list of things to do, but it seems that perhaps I should bump up its priority.

But just because you consider a thought does not necessarily make them your thoughts, or views you conform with.

First, yeah, this Thought belong to someone else, so nyah :P

Second, joking aside, if you can think a thought, then can adopt the behaviors that the thought promotes. Thinking about it, then, opens up a potential decision point. Even if you think about an important a hundred times and each time continue to come down on the proper side, others would be remiss if they did not offer arguments and exhortations to encourage that again the right path is chosen. Even if nothing else, it provides information for a potential third party who is not engaged in the processes but who is viewing.

However, to be clear, being able to understand a different thought pattern and world view than your own is a critical ability to have. Being unable to do so dooms a person to ultimate irrelevance: if one can't understand the actual reasons that others have for their differing world views, if you can't understand how these might be persuasive, then you can't convince them otherwise. On one hand, it is dangerous to be able to understand the allure of an idea because, when walking among so many thoughts, there are more opportunities to fall into one. However, the individual who can move around thoughts with ease is also at an advantage because they are less likely to be consumed by whichever one they happen to stumble upon.

Now let me simplify this philosophy. Males and Females, like Yin and Yang, were two sides of the same coin; two equal parts of a complete being, that one without the other simply cannot be. Each gender is like a leg attached to a body, and both equally important. Undermine any one of those legs, whether left or right, and you're crippled. But respect both and you will go far.

While I find such a perspective appealing, it is inherently dangerous. It separates males and females into different conceptual categories, although it offers the panacea that they are still related. On a rational level, this makes a degree of sense since there are physiological differences between them. However, the first step towards oppression is alienation. You might be able to legitimately hold this perspective without it degenerating into oppression, but humanity at large has shown that it cannot: separate but equal is not a stable state.

:| You had me there... *twitch* by about a hundred percent that it's ironic I didn't figure this about myself. When did you exactly predict / deduce this about me?

And don't tell me being romantic is sexist?!

Sorry, I should have been more careful: I meant to say that you are a Romantic (you might be a romantic too, but these are different concepts). That is, you ascribe to Romanticism: despite Z's focus on the Springtime of Youth, you hold to passion and emotion more than he does, at least in your postings here. Similarly, just judging from our postings, you the same would be true if I compared you to Josh, RD, RW, Saj, myself, or anyone else that I can think of off the top of my head. It would be too far to say that you wish mystery to remain in the world, but I think it would be fair to say that you like the mystique in the world.

Now Romanticism isn't itself necessarily sexist, but many dangerous concepts have an air of Romanticism about them. It is both Romantic and romantic to say that males and female complement each other and that together they are more than the sum of the individual parts. Sounds very lovely, doesn't it? Ah, but the logical extension of that, then, is that males and males and female and female wont complement each other the same way: eggs and cheese complement each other nicely when put together into an omelet, but eggs and eggs don't make the same thing, nor does cheese and cheese. Heterosexual couples are thus held as the superior combination, which in turn makes homosexual couples the inferior one. And hey, returning to the omelet analogy, you still have a meal if all you have is an egg, so does that mean eggs are superior to cheeses? Each ingredient has its own properties and it is so easy to start evaluating those properties.

I do not in the least think that you were trying to make a disparaging analogy about homosexuals, but these are the shadows that flutter around such thoughts, just outside the field of vision. Certainly you can understand that, when you approach the edge of this cliff to look down into the abyss, others will cry out "don't fall off!" Or, in some cases case, "only mooks approach the cliff!"

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10795
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1013 on: September 09, 2011, 08:54:59 pm »
r/feminisms/ is eating itself right now because some of the moderators are removing trans-related articles on the basis that they're bashing transphobic radical feminists. (Historically, second wave radical feminists believed gender was a 100% social construction, and felt transwomen were not "real" women; transitioning and gender identity has since been totally proven by science.)  /transgender/ is understandably pissed as hell. I'm completely against removing the articles, but I had to channel my imperious scientific positivism into something more palatable for the inclusiveness and diplomacy that movements require. I thought I'd share my argument here:

I vote in favor of not removing trans posts at all, for these reasons:

A New Paradigm: Inclusiveness is important to the movement, so that it can act as a coherent, politically powerful force. It's also important to avoid dehumanization. I understand the need to be diplomatic and involve others, such as women who may culturally endorse female circumcision (or who have different religious beliefs), or radical feminists who may be transphobic. But there is also value in building new paradigms and being progressive, as to not make the movement simply a consensus of tradition. This should include embracing truth and scientific discovery, and seeking to minimize bigotry within the group.

A Proven Scientific Phenomenon: Transitioning falls squarely under scientific truth and a subject of intragroup bigotry. It is an accepted biological phenomenon of differing brain and gender morphology. It's much like homosexuality. While it's still inviting trouble to be so openly intolerant of religion, transphobia should absolutely not be tolerated. Its proven science puts transphobics in the same lot as religious fundamentalists who claim being gay is a choice. I've read that most of these phobics are Second Wavers who still cling to the disproven idea that gender is a 100% social construction. While it may be anywhere from 98% to 99% of a social construction, that transitioning 1% has, at the very least, been claimed and demonstrated to be biologically true.

Oppression Olympics: I find the concept that transwomen still enjoy privilege or haven't suffered the full oppression of the female condition to be laughable. Transpeople are virtually the most marginalized and hated on earth, and a savagely frequent subject of hate crimes. Transwomen surrender their male privilege and must deal with patriarchy, and then must further deal with transphobia and even accusations that they aren't real women by feminists.

For these reasons, I would like /feminisms/ to represent progress in the movement and a forward-pulling influence. We should promote scientific truth and reduce bigotry. There is a point at which voices and opinions become completely illegitimate and without basis—it's akin to the definition of "hate speech" and the need for laws curtailing it. Given the scientific truth of transitioning and the undisputedly real, true phenomena of gender identities for transpeople, I think transphobia is certainly in that category.

Quote
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1014 on: September 09, 2011, 09:14:55 pm »
Trans issues and sexual equality issues are mostly unrelated, but it's inappropriate and unproductive for a handful of purists to play such an exclusionary game.

ZeaLitY

  • Entity
  • End of Timer (+10000)
  • *
  • Posts: 10795
  • Spring Breeze Dancin'
    • View Profile
    • My Compendium Staff Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1015 on: September 09, 2011, 11:40:45 pm »
http://gendertrender.wordpress.com/2011/09/06/who-are-the-males-who-sneak-into-michigan-womens-music-festival/

Seems this is the other side of the story; trigger for transphobia. My prior argument still stands, but I'm saddened by the stupid quagmire that exists here.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1016 on: September 10, 2011, 02:58:08 am »
My biggest complaint with all legitimate activist movements is that many within them tend to take themselves too seriously, adopt an exclusionary mindset, and place themselves in unwinnable social positions where somebody is inevitably getting hurt. (Coming from me that may sound rich, but if I seem that way it nevertheless is primarily and sometimes exclusively the observer's error, as my conflict lines tend to be very matter-of-fact when I'm engaged in real activism.) The result is that one must treat extremely carefully in activist circles. Otherwise it's "privilege" this and "insensitive" that...

So friggin' beneath people to be the way they are, so often. The weak strive to be weaker...

tushantin

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5645
  • Under Your Moonlight, Stealing Your Stars
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1017 on: September 10, 2011, 03:36:47 am »
@ZeaLitY: Hate to break it to you but being gay is a personal/social choice, but so is falling in love (even though you feel your heart randomly picks your partner for you). Regardless, there's a whole bunch of stuff that influences decisions, including hormones and altering physical structure, so your point stands.

So yes, you have my vote. As much as I feel uncomfortable supporting transgenders and homosexuals (RL incident, trust me, but I mean no disrespect) I'm also in favor of not removing trans posts. I also vote for cessation of hostilities and oppression towards transgenders and homosexuals.

tushantin

  • CC:DBT Dream Team
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5645
  • Under Your Moonlight, Stealing Your Stars
    • View Profile
    • My Website
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1018 on: September 10, 2011, 07:18:45 am »
Saj, I won't debate on this and I admit your point is valid, but you misinterpret what I mean here. So let try to bring some clarity:

Hate to break it to you, but that is not a valid reason for being uncomfortable supporting homosexuals or trans* people.
First of all, though emotions pertain to "choice" they often disregard reason, and if someone's sexuality directly results in another's emotional disturbance then, naturally, one would feel uncomfortable with them as whole (well, usually anyway). But I never said I hated them, because I realize that the community doesn't deserve the consequences brought about by an individual's decision. They are not to blame for my discomfort; the problem is mine solely.

To not support an entire community based on the actions of a few is highly illogical and it IS disrespectful.
Exactly. If you read my previous post carefully then you'd know that despite my discomfort I support the community and their rights, and am against the codes that oppress them.

Remember, I am one that never discriminates on general classes (which is why I often include words like "A lot of realists do this" instead of "realists do this" to indicate flawed individuals taking roots from something rather than the roots themselves being flawed), and my philosophy is strictly against it, especially because generalization and tribalistic attitude brings out moral corruption and introduces grander levels, such as racism and sexism.

It's been rough lately, lots of flashbacks, heart-issues, etc.  I don't think that's a cop-out, I am just very tired lately and do not really have the energy to debate. I just felt I needed to bring the above two points to light.
:(

I'm not so sure what to say to that, but I pray you're taking care of yourself or at least Dee's taking care of you. Here's sincerely hoping you recover soon, regardless if it seems like a fleeting dream with no logical grounds, but whatever it takes to help you get healthier and livelier.

And trust me, I'll make sure to not fall into the very flaws I fear.  :) This Tushant won't be an asshole to anyone who doesn't deserve it, and I promise you that.

Sajainta

  • Survivor of the Darkness
  • Radical Dreamer (+2000)
  • *
  • Posts: 2004
  • Reporting live from Purgatory.
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #1019 on: September 10, 2011, 08:20:34 am »
That makes more sense.  Thank you for clarifying.  And you calling my boyfriend Dee made me smile.  ^_^

I'm still curious as to why you think homosexuality is a personal / social choice.