Author Topic: Fuck Sexism  (Read 98414 times)

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #930 on: May 07, 2010, 04:47:51 pm »
Hahahaha, I can't stop laughing after watching this. My only regret is that it is all so terribly true.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NKXNThJ610

Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #931 on: May 07, 2010, 05:32:25 pm »
That's awesome.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #932 on: May 08, 2010, 10:06:44 am »
In response to this post from the Frustration thread, where ZeaLitY wrote:

Ugh, tired of hearing that it's "women's choice" to wear hijab in France, in regards to the possible ban. It was not their choice to be born into a Muslim family in which, as children, they had no real choice but to accept and be conditioned by the religion of their parents. A brainwashed "choice" is an oxymoron. I would only debate the ban in terms of how effectively it will erode religion and whether it will have any counterproductive effects. Otherwise, it's a smashing attack on religion, no matter if it's partially motivated by xenophobia.

Big matter that it's partially motivated by xenophobia. When you find yourself in pursuit of a worthy cause but are attracting the alliance of villains, it's extremely important to own the terms of the debate and to explicitly distinguish the good motives from the bad. If bad people are on your side, you can't help that, but you can do the cause a lot of hurt by ignoring it, downplaying it, or excusing it. I am categorically against blurring the line between humanistic and xenophobic motives for banning the public use of the veil. You need to remember that in terms of world power structures the more dangerous people are still the Christian fundamentalists, not the Muslim ones.

At any rate, because this is a very difficult issue for Western sensibilities, I offer some more explanation beyond what ZeaLitY hinted at. But first I point out that his use of the word hijab is incorrect. This popular misuse of the word is perhaps allowable from the position of ignorance, for the meaning is understood, but to use it this way deprives us of the correct word for other aspects of Islamic dress. A more correct word would be niqab, which means "mask." More to the point: France's ban, and the remainder of this post, pertain to face-covering veils. While face-covering veils tend to be a part of hijab, the reverse is not true. I tend nowadays simply to call it "the veil," which is both accurate in conveying the meaning and sufficiently generic as not to avoid misrepresentation of any specifics. Now, then, on to the topic at hand:

Usually when we talk about the evils of sexism, we're talking about the violation of people's dignity, safety, and opportunity. But to conceal a human face, which is an essential source of cues to anyone with eyesight, is a deeper violation, for it dehumanizes the individual to whom that face belongs...and a person without a face is a person without an identity. To be conditioned into wanting to wear the veil does not change any of this. To make such a choice, and to be allowed to make such a choice by society, is not empowering. It is a function of freedom, but only the freedom to live in oppression by embracing a familiar prison. Being able to execute the choice may or may not subjectively improve the quality of a person's life, but such improvement would only be possible if her spirit is already bent or broken, or if her worldview is severely warped because of the religious dogma. As far as I have been able to explore, there is no credible line of logic whatsoever in support of encouraging or forcing a person to wear the veil in order to "protect" the religious virtue of both her and any males who might see her. This premise in Islam is totally without external justification.

In France the main rationale for banning the veil in public is that it deteriorates social cohesion, but for me that isn't a compelling line of argument. Though I appreciate the risks to social cohesion, I'm much more concerned about the wellbeing of the people behind the veil. I've read about self-determining Westerners, some right here in my own city, who, as adults, converted into Islam and took to the veil. Such a decision baffles me completely and speaks to the corruptibility of human character, but presumably it is a choice made freely and with some information. Yet these are the minority, as most freethinking adults are not sick enough, fool enough, or under pressure enough that they would ever seriously consider such a self-limiting act. In stark contrast, it simply isn't the case that children reared under the heel of fundamentalism are likely to be able make an informed decision about the veil when it comes time for them to wear it. They don't have the information. They don't have the objectivity. They don't have the maturity. But what's worse is that they may not even have the ability, the mental competence, to chose against what they have been conditioned to need. We would talk about it in terms of psychological disorder, but what it amounts to qualitatively is a broken spirit. Adults who "choose" to wear the veil under such realities are not really making a choice. They are obeying their programming. And I'm not even talking about those even poorer souls who don't have a choice at all, the ones who would face serious retribution by not wearing the veil. Even in France there are those for whom family and community ties are so strong that the will of these local interests supersede the liberty to which we assume all citizens of the developed nations have ready access.

Thus, whenever I see someone wearing the veil--more often in the news than in person--I know there is a strong likelihood that they never had the opportunity to make an informed decision. I also understand that they may no longer be fit to reevaluate their circumstances. These factors, I think, are much more relevant to the justification of a public ban on the veil. What I am arguing, essentially, is that the decision to wear the veil is seldom made freely, with good information, and sound mind. Together with the fact that the veil is physically so deleterious to an individual's humanity, because of its identity-erasing power, I cannot in good conscience support the right to wear it in public. This kind of absolute ban is very hard for me to support, but the conditions are such that I end up supporting it very strongly. In my view, this is a freedom not worth having. Even those who would lose nothing that they are not knowledgeably willing to lose, should not be able to wear the veil in public, simply because it is so destruct for so many people. The argument about social cohesion is but an exclamation point to all that.

It's an ugly thing to indoctrinate children for the purpose of breaking their spirit. There are many evils within Islam so profoundly deplorable that each one of them alone would discredit the entire religion. Among these great evils is the power to erase identity and break spirit: the veil. Niqāb.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #933 on: May 08, 2010, 06:26:37 pm »
What do you all make of this excerpt from Tanmeet Sethi's Essay "Ladies Only"?

Quote
The burkha is a black, amorphous cover, leaving only the eyes visible. It drives most western women crazy. For some reason, they always ask me how I feel about it, even though I am not Muslim. I supposed to them I look close enough.

Today I sit in a café with two Western women who are disturbed by the burkha. I explain to them that it is a tool of oppression in some countries and in others, some women choose to wear it . They shudder at this thought as they sip their lattés. One is encased in makeup and wears a tight shirt with capri pants. Another wears a midriff shirt and jeans with her hair flowing over her neck and around her face. I explain that many women in the world use the burkha as a symbol of power, a statement of their value system. Women who wear the burkha refuse to be judged by their body or face. They want to be seen as another being, not as a sexual object. In this way, a burkha can be a tool of empowerment.

The women across from me listen with blank faces and confused stares. They argue that it is their right as women to wear what they want and how they wish to wear it. I agree and feel that this is precisely my point. I realize that these women in front of me are oppressed in many ways by society’s perception of what a beautiful woman is. They respond to the abundant images of barely clad women with “perfect” bodies and fine-tuned makeup. They sit before me as conformists to their own cultural values. They sport the latest fashions and revel in their sun-soaked glows.

I pity them; their oppression is so subtle they cannot even recognize it.

There's certainly no small amount of smugness on the author's part in judging her makeup-wearing peers, but reading this awhile back gave me some pause, and forced me to reconsider this issue. I can now see one compelling rationale for allowing women (and men, for that matter) to don the veil, and that is as a radical protest against a hyper-visual society in which people are judged on the basis of their appearance and not the power of their ideas or their utility to society. The idea of going incognito to escape snap judgment is a compelling motivator; this ideal is something I find particularly attractive about Internet discussion, and I'm probably not the only representative of such thinking.

To borrow one of J's ideas and twist it a bit, if he'll allow: the veiling of a face will rob some people of their identity; but contrarily, it is the face itself that robs others of their identities, thanks to prevailing norms, and perhaps our very evolution, which has rendered us a visual-centric species.

I would agree that the veil did not begin as, and currently does not exist as, a meaningful widespread protest in the way I describe. The circumstances surrounding its origin and continuation smack of both misogyny and misandry. However, I would stop short of insinuating that some mental problem necessarily lies at the heart of a decision to take up such dress, in the same way I would stop short of insinuating that a mental problem necessarily lies at the heart of decisions to wear Goth makeup, engage in violent bondage porn, or turn oneself into a Tiger.

Sure, I have reservations about the middle example, but if there's one thing I've learned here, it is the pre-eminent importance of bodily self determination. If there is one thing that is "holy" in feminism, it must be this concept. I would not wish to force a famous orchestra conductor's body to be attached to another human being to keep the conductor alive (unless the benefactor volunteered). Any marginal gain in communicative efficacy from forcing off a veil can only pale by comparison to that sort of thing, and this is the genius of JJ Thomson's orchestra conductor example.

The concern I have with the veil, much like my concern about pornography, is the difficulty of distinguishing participants who are doing it because they feel compelled to conform in some way from those who find it truly empowering, or have taken it up in the name of meaningful protest. That I have a similar conflict with both is no accident, because I feel they come from opposite ends of the same patriarchal spectrum. But I could not support a complete ban on either at this stage in my development.

For one thing, have we ever known a complete ban on anything to work? And let's say we do ban the veil -- how is it likely to be enforced? A $50 fine levied on every woman caught wearing one, while the men and women who forced that upon her get off scott-free? The people we need to be concentrating on here are the family members who burden women with the veil in the first place. Re-socialising these people is a slow and painful process, and it will suffer its setbacks, but I feel it's about the best we can do.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2010, 06:47:13 pm by FaustWolf »

Kodokami

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #934 on: May 08, 2010, 10:58:38 pm »
Quote
Women who wear the burkha refuse to be judged by their body or face.

A burkha is not necessary for this kind of achievement. There are more productive ways of being in control with one's own identity and not vice-versa.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #935 on: June 05, 2010, 06:34:39 am »
http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/cbhuf/its_impossible_to_be_sexist_towards_men/

God, reddit is full of dumbass males. Only in a technofuck place like that is an example of an idiot extrapolated to women at large and given 1600 upvotes.

Dice.

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #936 on: June 05, 2010, 02:20:29 pm »
http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/cbhuf/its_impossible_to_be_sexist_towards_men/

God, reddit is full of dumbass males. Only in a technofuck place like that is an example of an idiot extrapolated to women at large and given 1600 upvotes.

I'm not 100% on how the site works (I don't know what an "upvote" is or why you think the article is good/bad).  But interesting find nonetheless.  Poor guy, actually.  There's a problem in a good majority of women that, wrong or right, will always take the side of other women.  Ladies are good to be stupidly emotional at the worst of times, and can be quite irrational.  Or at least, the women on that forum take the "all female" deal quite seriously (forget someone in need).

Truthordeal

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #937 on: June 05, 2010, 03:40:26 pm »
I attempted to find the forum from the OP to see what he found objectional(because the post in the forums makes it clear that the "no boys allowed" rule is the least of his concerns) but apparently the site has been knocked offline. I'm assuming that the reddit story has increased traffic too much for their bandwidth.

Either way, I'll try again later.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #938 on: June 05, 2010, 06:08:25 pm »
In the original thread captured in the pic, the guy quickly resorted to misogynistic language, which hardly helped his case. His point that he was being discriminated against was valid IMO, but he really put his foot in his mouth there.

I don't usually welcome the kind of separatism on display in that mother's forum - indeed, I find it counterproductive in many cases - but the fact that the regulars there directed the topic starter to other forums where he could get his concerns addressed got me thinking that a valid purpose other than misandry might underlie their separatism. They probably do it to preserve a sense of emotional safety and security, a place where women can just be women (or, if they prefer, "womyn") and not have to worry about gender dynamics creeping in. I mean, seriously, if I were a woman trying to talk to other women about breastfeeding and stuff, it's understandable why I wouldn't necessarily want a dude suddenly barging into that environment.

As for the "impossible to be sexist against men" quote from the site admin there, it seems she's conflating sexism with patriarchy. I'm not sure what's up with that, unless she's trying to make a point about historical trends in the direction of sexism and its effects on women.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2010, 06:34:57 pm by FaustWolf »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #939 on: June 05, 2010, 06:35:47 pm »
There's a problem in a good majority of women that, wrong or right, will always take the side of other women.  Ladies are good to be stupidly emotional at the worst of times, and can be quite irrational. 

This is true of both sexes; it is a human weakness, not a female one, and such sexist generalizations don't help anybody.

I mean, seriously, if I were a woman trying to talk to other women about breastfeeding and stuff, it's understandable why I wouldn't necessarily want a dude suddenly barging in.

If anyone is going to have a sex-segregated forum, it ought to be handled by a manual registration approval process. Allowing males to register for a female-only forum is just asking for trouble and is needlessly offensive.

As for the "impossible to be sexist against men" quote from the site admin there, it seems she's mistakenly conflating sexism with patriarchy.

You're probably right, but, even if you are, she's still wrong. Even patriarchy has a deleterious affect on males. Like most if not all systems of institutionalized bigotry, the group of people whom the bigotry is designed to benefit are subjected to its delusions like anyone else.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #940 on: June 16, 2010, 01:38:57 am »
I wonder...

A lot of feminists nowadays raise issues with criticizing cultural institutions or practices in other countries. They cite the abuses of imperialism and the failure of second wave feminists to connect with women in other countries; instead, they say, second wavers simply shook their finger at other cultures and acted superior. Some go on to say that we, Western feminists, must respect other cultures and experiences, as there is no universal standard for human living and what's true for us may not be true for them. Where imperialists of old coerced other peoples, we will use diplomacy.

And then these same feminists turn around and use American and International law to coerce all kinds of subcultures—conservatives, rednecks, Southerners, pedophiles, the religious, and misogynists at large—into obeying their ideals. It seems that when it comes to a feminist's own country, the line about respecting and engaging others is off, and we get back into serious, hellraising, coercive reform. We subjugate the wills of others to move towards a more illuminated and progressive humanity.

But similar attitudes are vilified in other parts of the world. An American pedophile is utter scum, but a practice of child brides in an Asian country must be respected and diplomatically engaged. Sexists here are dude-ass bastards who fucking ruin humanity and need to fucking submit to higher principles, while abroad, they're the unfortunate practitioners of outdated customs that must be shaped by sharing experiences and finding common ground.

There's a disconnect here, even with the argument that Western feminists coerce their own people because they know whats best for them. Humanity and the human condition are not so disparate and complex that common sense ethics and rights cannot be applied to different cultures, and neither should culture be exempt from intelligent criticism. Because of this hijab debate, I keep hearing people say, "we don't know what's best for Muslim women. We should let them choose." Yeah? Well I think it's fucking obvious that 1) the ideal of freedom to choose clothes and bodily freedom is good, and that 2) fallacious religious conditioning and social bullying/brainwashing is bad. The second element can be removed without the first, as demonstrated by a French punishment for any man who forces a woman to wear hijab (how to catch and prosecute such is another problem, since the woman will likely be retaliated against in her community). There is no fucking arguing in favor of choice—as a product of religious belief, not simple style or function, like sunblock—without deigning to my second point. That line of thinking cedes grounds to brutal practices and horrible sexism.

I understand that it pays to be diplomatic. But too many people are believing this academic boon of diplomacy so much that they're actually respecting these cultural practices and losing sight of common humanity. That religion still must be respected in this world is probably responsible for a lot of the blame. Coercing one's own culture into submission but playing the role of a hands-off diplomat for other cultures is basically boiling things down to nationalism. Well, human ideals and ethics don't need borders, and neither does the illumination of our civilization. Be pragmatically diplomatic, and idealistically unforgiving.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 01:42:05 am by ZeaLitY »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #941 on: June 16, 2010, 02:35:44 am »
That's the first thoughtful thing you've written here in weeks. Of course, you would expect me to say that, since it's almost exactly a restatement of my own position. As a reasonably well-informed freethinker, unobstructed by religious faith or specious logic, it's quite straightforward for me to perceive the hypocrisy in multiculturalism whereby our own bigots are held to a higher standard than those belonging to other cultures on the grounds that our Western culture must respect the autonomy of other cultures. I'm not an "imperialist" in the old colonial sense (which gave imperialism its present-day bad reputation), but I am imperialist in the humanistic sense that I insist that every person should be afforded a basic equality of opportunity by their society to make cultural judgments for themselves as they pass through adolescence and into adulthood, even though I am fully aware that many cultural values are incompatible with the social infrastructure necessary to provide individuals with both the knowledge and power to make these judgments--thereby necessitating that such values be overruled if not outright suppressed. This describes secular humanistic empire. The human condition--specifically our curiosity and desire for self-determination--outranks national boundaries, or political boundaries of any type yet devised. It may be arrogant to say that freethought knows better than tradition, but it's the truth, and it justifies an imperialist stance. I hinted at these considerations in my speculation as to why Western liberals would side with Islamic fundamentalists in their opposition to the democratic Israeli state, which you of course failed to recognize because you're too dogmatic for your own good. But it's good to see that your blind spot is rather narrow, and that you can appreciate this multiculturalism problem at least from the point of view of sexism.

I noticed that your conclusion, "Be pragmatically diplomatic, and idealistically unforgiving," is uncharacteristically weak, to the point of uselessness. What we need to do is convince multiculturalists that they are fundamentally in error to presume that the secular humanist has no justification to infringe on other cultures. This is a purely internal challenge, and it can be confronted through debate and persuasion with other "Westerners" who are quite like us. That's a remarkably easy order when compared to the fight against sexism that lies beyond. However, I don't count you among this "we," as I no longer trust you as a standard-bearer for imperialism. You're not a freethinker but a dogmatist, your style has become increasingly hateful, and you have always been deficient in empathy. As far as I'm concerned, your energies are better spent on combating sexism in our own country, since in this enterprise you will always have strong institutional guidance for your policy thinking. Nevertheless, I leave it to you to decide what to do with yourself. It's a free country, after all, and you will continue to be useful until you're not.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #942 on: June 16, 2010, 03:37:37 am »
As a pragmatist I find myself most drawn to the question of what practical methodology would produce positive change most efficiently, and I think jumping straight into this and bypassing the question of whether foreign cultural institutions need to be "respected" is one tactic you might want to try when encountering the attitudes you mentioned, ZeaLitY.

I could be wrong, but it's my impression that the great majority of women who are forced into child marriages, suffer clitoridectomy, etc., instinctively know they've been given the short end of the stick somewhere along the line, by virtue of their basic humanity. Western women were able to begin the process of throwing off sexism's shackles with their own gumption and elbow grease, and I'm sure many in these conservative cultures would jump at the soonest opportunity to do likewise. Supplying them with education and helping them build organizational infrastructure doesn't sound too much like infringing imperialism to me, the main caveat being that the women suffering the oppressive institutions in question -- and not their Western benefactors -- get to determine where their movement goes once they get a helping hand. I think many a Western feminist concerned about "imperialism" should find such an arrangement amenable.

What I'm still iffy about is what to do in the most heavily fortified societies -- the West literally had to bust into Afghanistan to start producing change there, and I fear the Taliban's militancy will stifle any budding feminist movements there the moment we leave, regardless of educational opportunities Afghan women have started taking advantage of since we entered. I once thought Iran would be a perfect place to target with the "helping hand" methodology, but the government's use of bullets there has got me wondering how much longer it's going to be before the younger generation is able to topple that bastion of conservatism.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #943 on: June 16, 2010, 03:40:51 am »
However, I don't count you among this "we," as I no longer trust you as a standard-bearer for imperialism. You're not a freethinker but a dogmatist, your style has become increasingly hateful, and you have always been deficient in empathy. As far as I'm concerned, your energies are better spent on combating sexism in our own country, since in this enterprise you will always have strong institutional guidance for your policy thinking. Nevertheless, I leave it to you to decide what to do with yourself. It's a free country, after all, and you will continue to be useful until you're not.

You're welcome to leave the Compendium anytime, soursport.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #944 on: June 16, 2010, 04:53:38 am »
I could be wrong, but it's my impression that the great majority of women who are forced into child marriages, suffer clitoridectomy, etc., instinctively know they've been given the short end of the stick somewhere along the line, by virtue of their basic humanity.

I wish you were right, but I've come to better appreciate just how thoroughly a person's desires and frustrations can be rubbed out of their conscious awareness. Perhaps it's a survival mechanism; subjugated humans have a remarkable capacity for total surrender. It's sad.