Author Topic: Fuck Sexism  (Read 98393 times)

Sajainta

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #720 on: October 10, 2009, 04:14:54 am »
Faust, thank you so much for providing that link.  I'm a bit too tired and muddled to write a coherent post at the moment, but I will later once I get the chance.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #721 on: October 10, 2009, 04:20:21 am »
To be fair, I've read some of that professor's previous work and public speaking transcripts, and some would be quick to point out perhaps overprotectionist overtones and appeal to emotion in his previous writings and speeches. But that specific article is pretty much telling it straight; it's not like he's cherrypicking extreme examples. All this stuff's available online, often for free because it's been leaked (even porn industry executives are pulling hair out over digital piracy). The author's probably improved in form over time in order to clarify the message. And that message: as long as pornography is an industry dominated by men who cater mostly to men who enjoy images of misogyny in practice, things will be seriously effed up.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 04:43:23 pm by FaustWolf »

MsBlack

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #722 on: October 10, 2009, 12:08:00 pm »
Wasn't sure whether to put this in the link megathread, but decided upon here.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/8300463.stm

:picardno

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #723 on: October 10, 2009, 02:07:26 pm »
Yeah, I saw that on the news yesterday. I think it brings up a question of how virtual porn differs from physical porn. There's probably hentai out there featuring Marge Simpson being subjected to the same things the actresses in the article were. While I'd be quick to criticise that on the exact same grounds I've criticized physical pornography, in some respects I know I have to bite my tongue -- we're subjected to images of simulated violence and death all the time in our PG-13 entertainment.

However, the violence differs in that at least it's portrayed in a wider context: the heroes and anti-heroes who resort to weapons in mainstream entertainment are typically engaged in some kind of great struggle against what seem to be insurmountable odds. It would be heroic for all of us, like Ellen Ripley, to take up a pulse rifle in defense of a child victimized by brutal space aliens. The Red Shoe Diaries (has that even been on since the 1990s?) and other story-based porn notwithstanding -- and that example doesn't represent mainstream porn any longer, or at least not the most accessible porn -- a significant amount of hard core pornography frames the activities in no context, with no message other than that women are meat for men, and that men are themselves insensitive lumps of flesh.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2009, 06:25:43 pm by FaustWolf »

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #724 on: October 10, 2009, 08:25:55 pm »
Since the pro-sex side of feminism, or at least the brand that defends all pornography, hasn't been adequately represented here aside from Zephira's brief defense of consensual pornography, I thought I'd provide this article and engage in a sort of schizoid dialogue with the author, Wendy McElroy. Hopefully this will give others a fairly good idea of where each side is coming from in the debate.
http://www.secularhumanism.org/library/fi/mcelroy_17_4.html

In one section of her blanket defense of all pornography McElroy responds to the charge that pornography is degrading to women.

Quote from: McElroy

Degrading is a subjective term. I find commercials in which women become orgasmic over soapsuds to be tremendously degrading. The bottom line is that every woman has the right to define what is degrading and liberating for herself.

The assumed degradation is often linked to the "objectification" of women: that is, porn converts them into sexual objects. What does this mean? If taken literally, it means nothing because objects don't have sexuality; only beings do. But to say that porn portrays women as "sexual beings" makes for poor rhetoric. Usually, the term sex objects means showing women as body parts, reducing them to physical objects. What is wrong with this? Women are as much their bodies as they are their minds or souls. No one gets upset if you present women as "brains" or as spiritual beings. If I concentrated on a woman's sense of humor to the exclusion of her other characteristics, is this degrading? Why is it degrading to focus on her sexuality?

True, "degrading" is a subjective term. But nevertheless, there's got to be a few things most or all feminists can agree are indeed "degrading." Can we agree, for example, that the Book of Genesis, with its claim that the first woman was fashioned out of a spare rib, degrades the value of the first woman in that story? Why should this be so? I believe it to be so because it reduces the first woman's humanity by presenting her as a thing to be molded by and for third parties. I feel comfortable enough with this bare bones definition of "degradation" to use it as a basis for interpreting what I see in pop culture.

Eschewing sex and all its complications for a moment, let's see what happens when we do concentrate on a woman's sense of humor to the exclusion of her other characteristics. We'll probably end up with mental visions of Ellen Degeneres, Joan Rivers, Roseanne Barr, or another randomly selected comedienne. Is a comedienne going to tell a joke she herself doesn't believe to be funny? Ah, yes -- we're focusing on her -- her what? Sense of humor. We are not focusing on the audience's sense of humor, but her own. When she tells a joke, regardless of whether we think it too baudy and distasteful to our own sensibilities or if we laugh right along, we expect that the joke reflects her unique, perhaps quirky brand of humor. And that furthermore, she takes internal pleasure in telling the joke and making others laugh. Even though she gets paid to do this, she is still sharing something that is hers and no other's.

Let's step back and qualify this observation with a definition of "humor." I think most of us would agree without too much quibbling: it's that certain unidentifiable something that makes us laugh.

Now let's turn to sexuality. Let's work backward and ask ourselves first what sexuality is. Again, we could probably produce varying definitions, but we could probably agree that sexuality is at least that certain unidentifiable something that gives us sensual pleasure.

So to reduce a woman to her sexuality is to focus on her -- her what? Sexuality. For a pornographic actress to take immense pleasure in confidently showing off her amazing, goddess-like curves for the enjoyment of both men and women is possibly no bad thing. For a pornographic actress to take immense pleasure in any number of sex acts for the enjoyment of both third party men and women is possibly no bad thing. Since the pleasure is internal to herself, it is her sexuality being shown off. Hundreds of thousands of people, feminists and non-feminists, conservatives and liberals, may think she's weird or unscrupulous for doing this, but maybe it doesn't matter because she really enjoys all this. And viewers can take heart that what they're seeing is this woman's sexuality.

But if we may examine critically what's actually happening in this industry for a moment: not all women enjoy the same things; female sexuality is incredibly complicated and varied, probably moreso than male sexuality. We have conflicting reports about whether women enjoy specific sex acts. For example, some women may very well enjoy ingesting various bodily fluids; and yet, at the same time, there is a curious report according to which "...few women praise the taste..." of a certain bodily fluid consumed in the great majority of today's hard core pornography (take a wild guess, again, NSFW factor just for written content -- no pics).

We don't have to go into all this grodiness; in many cases we can use our own senses to evaluate what the actors and actresses are participating in, inasmuch as we share basic aspects of humanity with them. For example, JM Productions' "Donkey Punch" featurette -- referenced earlier on the previous page -- involves the penetrating actor striking the back of the actress' head during intercourse. I don't know about anyone else, but I don't particularly like being hit. We usually call that "abuse," or even if it's consensual, "harm." It's not sensual, unless the person receiving the injury happens to associate injury with arousal.

So, we might give JM Productions the benefit of the doubt and think that they have a fantastic research team capable of locating masochists for their "Donkey Punch" featurette. But would a masochist reflect on her participation in that production with the following quip?

"Donkey Punch" was the most brutal, depressing, scary scene that I have ever done.

I don't think any of us who are generally willing to support the existence of pornography in principle expect a pornographic actress to undergo a brutal, depressing, scary experience. Those things were not in the basic definition of sexuality I offered earlier. Even a masochist at least wouldn't be depressed, seeing as he or she should be aroused and exhilerated by the pain and frightening shocks by very definition of being a masochist.

I think we can reasonably conclude that the woman involved in that specific porn shoot wasn't living her own sexuality -- she was being shaped to the sexual preferences of her viewers. True, as Wendy says, in a humanistic sense it is impossible to have a "sexual object." Yet a nonsexual physical object can be used to foment the pleasure of another without experiencing any of its own. Thus, I believe it fair to say that many of the men and women who participate in pornographic sex acts are reduced -- "degraded" -- to nonsexual objects inasmuch as these scenes aren't accurate representation of what really pleases them.

We shouldn't need to deconstruct every single scene like this; we know intuitively that, because most of these men and women are being paid for what they do, sensual pleasure -- and therefore sexuality -- is often times immaterial to their decision to carry on with the work. There are a number of motives that could be at play behind any pornographic depiction: money, real physical or psychological coercion, etc. It's sad. It's sad not because women are being reduced to their own sexuality, but because in many cases women are being reduced to the sexuality of people who are not them. And in that way, yes, a widely agreed upon definition of degradation is possible within the context of pornography, and probably happens far more often than a pro-sex feminist should be comfortable with.


I'm probably outstaying my welcome at this point and I'd just be repeating myself in most cases by highlighting McElroy's paper point-by-point like this, so just a few more brief observations:

Quote from: McElroy
Pornography benefits women...
*It gives a panoramic view of the world's sexual possibilities....

*It allows women to "safely" experience sexual alternatives and satisfy a healthy sexual curiosity. The world is a dangerous place. By contrast, pornography can be a source of solitary enlightenment.

*It offers the emotional information that comes only from experiencing something either directly or vicariously. It provides us with a sense how it would "feel" to do something.

...Perhaps it is flattering to imagine a particular man being so overwhelmed by her that he must have her. Perhaps she is curious. Perhaps she has some masochistic feelings that are vented through the fantasy. Is it better to bottle them up?
How can these observations about women's empowerment possibly justify the defense of JM Productions (the producer I've personally been haranguing on most as an example of mainstream porn)? Can I really sit back and say, "Hmm...I wonder what it would be like to be hit in the head. I wonder if I'd feel aroused by it. Hey, you! Yeah, you! Stand there and let that guy hit you! You're being paid for it of course...ouch, oh, that did look painful. I guess I wouldn't like that after all."

This thought experiment is nothing short of sheer victimization for my curiosity, especially when the person I'm addressing lives in a society in which economic and social pressures constrain their choices. Compared to a life of poverty, getting hit in the head for money might not be so bad. The person being struck might find the prospect of being left out in the cold so horrible that he or she even signs a legal contract tossing away his or her right to sue the production company for harm. I might very well have some lurking curiosity about masochistic possibilities, but I'm not willing to make someone act those out just to satisfy those curiosities. There are certain minimal things it is okay to bottle up. For those that need to be bottled up, it is better to spend money seeing a psychologist than spending money on vicarious fulfillment of violent curiosities.

The sheer fact of the matter is, as the industry currently exists, much of the material does little to promote the empowerment goals McElroy is claiming in order to shield the entire body of the world's legally produced pornographic library. A woman having two men on top of her doing who-knows-what, shouting sexist obscenities at her, flinging things at her we wouldn't normally want flung at ourselves, does nothing to teach women what their sexual possibilities are. The only information we're getting is often what the audience is looking for, or often what the producers think the audience wants.

Pro-sex feminists shouldn't feel forced to offer blanket protection to productions that may or may not be degrading to women depending on the actresses' own subjective experience; to offer blanket protection to pornography isn't Pro-Sex as much as "Pro-what-may-or-may-not-be-Sex-depending-on-the-specific-circumstances." Given the amount of abuse we know to happen within the porn industry, we should feel no compunction with excising those aspects of it most feminists can agree upon.
 
I feel the major failing of the "anti-Porn" movement within feminism was its decision to band together with the political Right instead of having a constructive dialogue with self-identified Pro-Sex feminists. From that point forward, Pro-Sex feminists have probably suspected "anti-Porn" feminists of trying to subvert women's freedom under a new guise, and "anti-Porn" feminists have probably refused to admit the valid considerations Pro-Sex feminists offer.


Where this all becomes so truly heartrending is that I think both McElroy and I, though we identify more with opposite sides of the divide this post attempts to highlight, would quickly reach an agreement that JM Productions' "Donkey Punch" featurette was blatantly abusive. We would also probably, eventually, maybe agree that a lot of pornographic actors and actresses go through things that aren't really sex even by the actors' and actresses' own subjective standards of pleasure, and that other factors are producing real coercion.

Because, even though we give full credit that women in this society are responsible for themselves and their own bodies, and exercise sole decisionmaking responsibility over their lives, we know this not to be yet the perfect world we're going for. Hundreds, maybe thousands of women are pressured every day into having abortions against their will, or prevented from having abortions against their will. Hundreds, maybe thousands of women are successfully coerced into unwanted physical contact with men. Why is the pornography industry any different from other male controlled aspects of society? Why treat it with kid gloves? Just because we want women to exercise control over their own lives, we ignore the damage that results from women daily having things thrust into them, and thrusting things into themselves that they don't really enjoy? What kind of screwed up feminism is this?

What's even more heartwrenching is, as things stand, if I or even a more authoritative figure like Prof. Robert Jensen (who wrote the commentary I linked toward the bottom of the previous page expressing his concerns) were to stand up and call for a raid on JM Productions, JM Productions would invoke the First Amendment and Wendy McElroy would come to their aid. How many more "donkey punches" must be delivered to (probably underpriveleged) women on film before we wake up and start taking our collective humanity back?

And that's the major problem with the current feminist movement. Because we're not willing to compromise and reach agreements on basic standards, we spend more time fighting one another than fighting sexism.

How exhausting.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2009, 03:51:03 am by FaustWolf »

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #725 on: October 11, 2009, 01:08:43 am »
Sorry sorry sorry sorry -- just one more and I'll let it rest, but I wanted to provide a link to a female voice on the "anti-Pornography feminism" side just so everyone can get a taste from a woman's perspective, lest I give the impression of somehow trying to paternalistically claim anti-pornographic attitudes solely for "teh enlightened dude" or something. As always, NSFW. Very NSFW this time. I honestly hope that isn't stopping a whole lot of people, but it is what it is and there's often rules we can't cross for our own safety. Without further ado -- Dr. Gail Dines.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5003155114018800220&hl=en#

It starts off pretty dry, but gets more and more interesting as it goes on -- I'm still watching/listening. I'm not sure I'd go to a British person to learn about how the porn industry began in the US, but hey -- it's not like I was alive in the US in 1952 either. It's about an hour long.

I don't necessarily agree with all the points she's making; she may understate the role of women in actively running the porn industry, for example, at least that's what we might find if we did a big line-up of all the producers and solo do-it-herself artists out there. Also, I think she unfairly undermines the value of and insight of Third Wave Feminism. But as with a Michael Moore documentary, she gets at some pretty deep, very pertinent, and on some level very true issues.

EDIT: At least fast forward to the Jenna Jameson section starting at 31 minutes in and start there. This is where it gets really good. When she gets to a discussion of modern-day porn, her facts are absolutely straight. Dines isn't cherrypicking; this stuff is out there, it's mainstream, awards are won for it, and 11 year olds are watching it.

My only criticism of Dr. Dines is that she leaves out statements we could say about the degradation of men in mainstream pornography, and the consumption of mainstream porn by women. I know some women watch this stuff too, possibly as often as men. Couples probably watch this stuff. Little schoolgirls watch this -- remember my mentioning of the coprophagiac porn my fellow fifth graders were discussing? That was a discussion carried out within mixed company. Fifth grade boys and girls.


EDIT: Here's a panel speaking on the social science aspect of studying popular pornography as it exists today. When Penn & Teller called bullshit on Dr. Dines in their "Bullshit" show and then showed soft porn as an example of how harmless porn is, they were guilty of deflecting what should be a crucial issue for a movement that means to stamp out manifestations of misogyny. NSFW for language; no pics. It's an hour long, and adds some statistical basis for what Dr. Dines was talking about. I should have provided this earlier, and I apologize for failing to do so.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4489853897776743667#


We could probably argue about whether a positive, healthy, and/or feminist pornography is possible (I think most of us would agree that it is), but nevertheless the issue of men jerking off to misogynistic images should give us serious, serious pause if we mean to call ourselves feminists.

Maybe it doesn't spill over into outright rape; but it nevertheless has some impact on how men view women in our society. It's been my experience that the language being used in mainstream porn leaks into wider society, and causes men exposed to this kind of thing to typically start segregating the women they interact with on a daily basis into categories with various levels of humanity: wives are wives, friends are friends, but strangers are just screwable. See an attractive woman? She's no longer "cute" but "a ho." This is a problem.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 01:39:44 am by FaustWolf »

Thought

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #726 on: October 12, 2009, 03:05:44 pm »
It will take ages for me to fully process all that info, FW. But until that future date...

We might give pornography a pass on this, thinking that it's meant to satiate the desire instead and thus deflect the pursuit of "rough" or "dangerous" practices.

It may indeed satiate in the short term, but a problem arises from how the human body works over the long term. Why do some people drink 5 cups of coffee a day? Did they wake up one day and just start having that many? Or rather did they drink one cup a day for a good long while. Then, things were a little rough one day, so they upped it to two. They were more willing to up it to two again after that, and in time two became the standard. Then three, then four, and so on.

Porn might satiate in the short term (though as you pointed out, it can merely lead an individual to seek out the reality rather than go for release), but with each satiation there is the possibility that the appetite for it will grow. Let us compare this to food; if you watch an hour of the Food Network every day, chances are you'll increase your calorie intake. It makes you hungry and you eat. Appetite stimulated, appetite satisfied, but keep doing that and you'll gain weight. One might claim that worst comes to worst, under such an example you are just hurting yourself. But a curious precursor to diabetes is insulin levels. A pre-diabetic might be driving along, their blood sugar starts to crash, and they become a more dangerous driver. The brain doesn’t do well with wild fluctuations.

Humans are very malleable creatures. What we see, what we think, what we do now directly influences how we will see, think, and do in the future, and thus we must closely guard the present. While it is possible to undo a bad habit once formed, it is far easier to never have developed a bad habit in the first place.

While I'd be quick to criticise that on the exact same grounds I've criticized physical pornography, in some respects I know I have to bite my tongue -- we're subjected to images of simulated violence and death all the time in our PG-13 entertainment.

To be fair, there is also a matter of focus. I'm currently playing Marvel Ultimate Alliance II with my wife (it was a post-doctoral-defense gift). That involves a lot of harming human-like beings and killing them. But that isn't the goal of the game, rather an obstacle to achieving a different goal (leveling up, getting through the level, seeing more of the story, etc). Other games include violence as the goal, rather than the form, of play. Manhunt, for example. Violent, degrading sex is the goal of some porn, and because it is the goal it affects us more. It is the end game, the positive-reinforcement.

Can we agree, for example, that the Book of Genesis, with its claim that the first woman was fashioned out of a spare rib, degrades the value of the first woman in that story?

Not at all! That particular story of creation follows creation up a ladder, from least impressive to most impressive. If "man" is the crown of creation, this story places a woman as the crown-jewel. A gem is beautiful and complete by itself, but a crown without its jewel is just tacky. In a different society, the genesis story could have very well been taken as an exaltation of women.

I do not make the claim that the story was ever interpreted this way for any significant number of individuals, but just that the degradation isn't inherent in the story but in ourselves.

Anywho, being a bit more on-track, regarding your comparison of a comedian to a sex-actor, one should point out that certain forms of comedy are indeed looked down upon, discouraged, and even prohibited. Racist jokes are the quintessential example of this. Thus, while it might be arguable to say that some pornography could be valid, it is equally valid to then say that bad taste is still bad taste, no matter the form.

What's even more heartwrenching is, as things stand, if I or even a more authoritative figure like Prof. Robert Jensen (who wrote the commentary I linked toward the bottom of the previous page expressing his concerns) were to stand up and call for a raid on JM Productions, JM Productions would invoke the First Amendment and Wendy McElroy would come to their aid.

Ah! Such abuses of the First Amendment pain me. I still maintain that pornography cannot be called art, but much less so can it be called speech! Where are the ideas that it conveys, the concepts? Even if we assume that it could legitimately be called speech, the freedom of speech brings with it the responsibility to speak well; if we ignore the responsibility, we abuse the freedom and deserve to lose it. To restrict cruel pornography restricts a person's freedom of speech about as much as putting safety railing on the Golden Gate Bridge. It prevents a particularly undesirable act, but the thoughts and meanings are still free. We cannot and should not prevent people from thinking about and talking about jumping off the Golden Gate, but we can very well prevent them from doing so, all without infringing on their rights.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #727 on: October 12, 2009, 08:09:08 pm »
On the matter of racist jokes, one of the better tactics the small anti-Porn feminist movement has adopted is highlighting racist overtones in pornography, and linking that to the possibility of overt sexism. Right after Don Imus' infamous comment a porno came out bearing the exact same name, but you didn't hear a peep out of the media over that one. Double standards much?

BTW, found an academic paper on the analysis of porn content, authored by the panel in the last video I posted.
http://www.allacademic.com//meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/7/2/3/8/pages172388/p172388-1.php
« Last Edit: October 12, 2009, 09:44:40 pm by FaustWolf »

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #728 on: October 14, 2009, 04:55:02 am »
Quote from: Thought
Not at all! That particular story of creation follows creation up a ladder, from least impressive to most impressive. If "man" is the crown of creation, this story places a woman as the crown-jewel. A gem is beautiful and complete by itself, but a crown without its jewel is just tacky. In a different society, the genesis story could have very well been taken as an exaltation of women.

I do not make the claim that the story was ever interpreted this way for any significant number of individuals, but just that the degradation isn't inherent in the story but in ourselves.
This is an incredible point I missed at first in my search for a basic definition of what makes something degrading versus non-degrading, and I only just realized it after studying Dr. Jensen's writings in further depth. I still feel a compulsion to cling to my definition that degradation occurs when something is done for a third party and not for oneself, but my definition can easily become problematic (what does it say about various forms of altruism, for example?).

Let's examine "degradation in the mind of the observer," then. Interviews with the observers of hard core porn have revealed a lot of quips like, "[Insert common porn act here] is like a dog marking its territory." And "[Insert common very harsh porn act here] fulfills a guy's desire to get back at bitchy women in real life." We can always make the reverse assumptions about the smaller market for "femdom" porn, where men could be degraded through whipping and being urinated upon, etc.

What makes the degradation sexist, then, could be the extreme imbalance of female degradation vs. male degradation in mainstream pornography. If every act of a woman gagging on who-knows-what were followed by the leading lady lunging onto the erstwhile aggressor and viciously yanking at his uvula until he tossed his lunch, perhaps it would be less sexist, and at least depict reciprocal sexuality and thus a full sexual cycle. She'd really have to choke him with a crowbar for complete reciprocation though; you can't really feel what a hard core porn actress is feeling until your epiglottis is blocked during the act. But such images would be far healthier for the 10-year-olds watching it, I think, than what's in circulation currently.

As an aside, doesn't the whole..."sex must involve a crowbar-jammed-in-the-guy's-glottis" maneuver seem just a little...misandrystic and cruel? Ex-frickin'-actly. Oh no, the porn industry couldn't possibly abide showing that as part of their gonzo videos. It would unsettle male viewers, and give boys the impression that they'll have to be on the receiving end of this in their relationships later in life! The horror!

But there's also something else telling in the fact that the great majority of our stomachs churned a bit at the thought of crowbars down our gullets: if the porn consumers wouldn't be willing to go through what the sex kitten on screen is going through, she is in a sense degraded in the minds of those consumers; they have a human regard for their own safety and well-being, but no such regard for hers. Even if I happen to have a fantasy about a woman shoving a crowbar down my throat and this makes me aroused, it would be kind of sick for me to pay a dude to go through that extreme practice in my stead, just to satisfy my curiosity. Jensen applies this empathy-related concept to a number of acts seen in porn that carry severe health risks (ATM comes to mind...I'm not going to provide a link -- those who don't know what it is already can just continue thinking of it as "Automated Teller Machine").


But as an analogy to wrap this up and complete what Thought was getting at: whether the Book of Genesis is degrading to women could be construed as a function of how those who aren't women interpret it, regardless of how women themselves interpret it. This is treading thin ice because it suggests that power over degradation and empowerment is being removed from the one who stands to be degraded or empowered. As a further analogy, a feminist thinks it's most important that women feel beautiful on the inside regardless of how others judge them; and yet, should we not still be concerned with the very real phenomenon in which women are judged completely on the basis of their perceived attractiveness? Should we not continue to try to root out these sexist attitudes toward beauty from our society?

I also realize now that the issues of degradation and sexism could potentially be separated. If the Book of Genesis reported that Eve were created from a spare rib God found lying around, and God simultaneously created Adam from a spare boob that just happened to be lying around, we could potentially have egalitarian degradation without sexism, inasmuch as sexism can manifest as the unequal allocation of degradation.

In summation, we could hypothetically eliminate sexism in pornography while still allowing women to degrade themselves if they want, if there are enough crowbars lying around California that can be jammed down men's throats and elsewhere. It would be called "the crowbar shot."
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 01:25:34 pm by FaustWolf »

GenesisOne

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #729 on: October 14, 2009, 01:35:18 pm »

Well put, Mister Wolf.

However, there are those women out there who don't agree with you.

Quote
"Pornography benefits women, both personally and politically." This sentence opens my book XXX: A Woman's Right to Pornography, and it constitutes a more extreme defense of pornography than most feminists are comfortable with. I arrive at this position after years of interviewing hundreds of sex workers.

This is the opening statement to this link:

http://www.wendymcelroy.com/e107_plugins/content/content.php?content.31

Call it a feminist's view of pornography, call it whatever you want.  It just goes to show that not all women think that pornography is degrading, both to the porn actress and the viewer.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #730 on: October 14, 2009, 02:23:46 pm »
Third Wave feminism has articulated pretty clearly and uniformly that women need a public space in which they can be sexual and free of patriarchal sexual norms; I have no issue with that, and the sense that Second Wave feminists want to deny this is part of what's killing Second Wave feminism.

But what's happened in the porn industry is that women are flowing from one end of a patriarchal spectrum right into the other. Patriarchy isn't just men saying women can't have sex; patriarchy is also those same men keeping "flesh on the side" throughout history. Patriarchy is about male control of women's sexuality, one way or the other -- and what could possibly be more patriarchal than a male director or a production company headed by men telling women how to behave sexually in front of a camera, for the enjoyment of other men?

When the porn industry pulls out people like Nina Hartley as an example of why gonzo porn should be defended, it's such a joke: Nina Hartley's kinky "how to..."s are way, way far away from being what the industry is putting most women through, and at least Hartley presents sexuality in terms of some kind of minimal sensitivity and emotion. Even if Hartley's been awarded directorship as a result of previous participation in the industry's mainstream, she doesn't treat the women in her productions the same way she herself was likely treated. Betty Dodson's another example of a sex-positive feminist who defends all pornography, but even she feels some compulsion to create a "new porn" meant to educate within a feminist context.

The fact that hardcore gonzo pornography is as formulaic as it is punishing is telling; these aren't a variety of sex acts freely decided upon, but rather people being paid to perform and pretend that they enjoy things that not 100% of women would enjoy in real life -- and these things are physically punishing to boot. Sex isn't supposed to be physically punishing in most people's minds; the porn industry is becoming something right out of a Marquis de Sade book. I mean, there's a significant portion of men who would not enjoy a crowbar being shoved down his throat by his lusty partner; we would take some issue with this practice being shown in every single scene of the porn most commonly consumed by the greater public.

There are also effects external to the sex industry and these bother me most. Imagine how many relationships will be damaged as more men demand their significant others allow replication of these same acts upon them. Men who consume this stuff in boyhood are liable to think that, because these things happen nearly 100% of the time in what they're watching, and because all the women involved pretend to enjoy it, that this is part of normal sexuality, and women who don't enjoy it or even refuse it are deviant.

And what's worse -- sex ed does absolutely nothing to counter all this. With its focus on pregnancy and contraception it in fact reinforces the patriarchal notion that the main purpose of sex is to produce male orgasm, thus subverting the importance of women's pleasure in relation to men's.

For all the criticism that Andrea Dworkin receives, her genius lay in the fact that her anti-porn agenda was pursued not as something against free speech, but as a women's civil rights movement. If some women's decision to experience punishing sex on screen inhibits the right of other women to enjoy sexual relations that aren't so punishing, then there could be a real legal question at hand.


There's also the fact that porn has become so much more brutal, so much more ubiquitous, so much more readily accepted, and so much more easily accessible since McElroy published that book in 1995. A "Donkey Punch" had not been delivered onscreen until 2005; the fact that it's been done at least twice, and that female porn actresses have had their brains jarred by these punches, is a direct result of the anarchy our society has allowed the porn industry to exist in.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 09:43:20 pm by FaustWolf »

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #731 on: October 14, 2009, 10:01:44 pm »
Speaking of abuses in the model industry:
http://shine.yahoo.com/channel/beauty/was-the-photoshopped-ralph-lauren-model-fired-for-being-overweight-525248/

Did you guys hear about this freakish model photoshopping incident gone awry, and the fact that the model was let go for not following "industry guidelines"?

I think the culture of anorexia in the world of modeling could be a useful analogy to the culture of masochism in the porn industry.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2009, 11:48:49 pm by FaustWolf »

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #732 on: November 04, 2009, 05:50:30 pm »
http://gamecareerguide.com/features/795/reinforcing_the_wall_hegemonic_.php

Unfortunately, it seems that gender norms follow players into virtual worlds, and voice chat may be making it worse.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #733 on: November 04, 2009, 07:52:42 pm »
Thanks for reminding me RD, I need to post this now:


A GameFAQs daily poll from a couple days back. The plurality answer is so surreal. My translation is: "Eh, we're not really concerned with progress or anything. As long as it's just as sexist as anything else, it's fine."

Surreal humor at its best -- and its worst.

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #734 on: November 04, 2009, 08:55:20 pm »
Holy moly. I don't even know where to begin with that one...