Author Topic: Fuck Sexism  (Read 98422 times)

ZeaLitY

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #675 on: September 19, 2009, 03:01:31 am »
According to a Huffington Post columnist, women the world over are less happy nowadays than at the start of the Second Wave feminist movement in the US (note that Second Wave feminism probably still hasn't touched a good portion of the countries surveyed):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/marcus-buckingham/whats-happening-to-womens_b_289511.html

One of the sobering things we're learning in that class is that for all the gains of feminism, there have been many more losses. Whether the losses have outweighed the gains, and whether we're in a worse position than the one we started in is hard to define (I think we're better, even if it's just a tiny bit). One of the main arguments for the preponderance of losses is structural adjustment—that women in third world countries were already bearing a sexist yoke with several duties according to their traditions, but now have to add a lot of work to the mix thanks to economic development, which, when coupled with the "austerity" provisions of structural adjustments, places much of the burden of change on women. Men's lives don't change as much; they work, come home, and so on.

The Indian wife to a UN Ambassador who spoke to us a few days ago also noted how she witnessed a change in India in her own life (she's middle-aged): women are now as ambitious as men when it comes to work. This doesn't translate to career ambition or equality; rather, it's "ambition" in that they want to go out and work to get as much money as possible. This has exacerbated some of the feminine burdens in India.

"What? But ZeaLitY, it's good that women are working to empower themselves!" Well, it's important to note that according to her and a few other Indian feminist authors, this working is accompanied by zero changes in gender roles. Women still expect the man in a household to be the main breadwinner. The wife to the ambassador told the story of a women whose husband lost his job. Unable to deal with the gender role reversal of being the main breadwinner, she quit her job, plunging the entire family into worse conditions. Now, this woman isn't THE "Indian Woman" (her anecdotes aren't necessarily total reality), and likewise, India is so massive that generalizations just won't do. But this anecdote can give an idea of some of the problem. Women already do work an awful lot to rear children and maintain the home, and to add conventional work and survival burdens on top of this makes being female even harder. In the United States, this concept is called "second shift" (as far as I'm aware; we haven't studied it too much). Done with your first shift at work? Time to start your second at home! You need to manage groceries, personal finances, parenting, child appointments and schedules, utilities, laundry, cleaning, etc. all in addition to your own personal appointments and upkeep requirements.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #676 on: September 19, 2009, 03:07:07 am »
So a lot of this may have to do with the work/family stress women are under, and that in turn crops up from women still doing most of the "family" part? What happens when the man in the relationship takes equal responsibility for the family side? Perhaps next time this survey is completed, there should be a control group and an experimental group to test the factor of male household participation.

Also, this reminds me that it would be interesting to compare the happiness level of lesbian women to the happiness level of straight women. Likewise, the happiness level of straight men compared to the happiness level of gay men.


The author seemed to indicate that the data trends extended to single women as well as married ones. If that's true, I'm wondering what other factors may be at play. I suspect the explosion of the mass media and resulting body image issues.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 03:10:12 am by FaustWolf »

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #677 on: September 19, 2009, 03:54:58 am »
According to a Huffington Post columnist, women the world over are less happy nowadays than at the start of the Second Wave feminist movement in the US...

Ladies, do you think he has a point, or is he completely off base? If times seem unhappier for women on average, why is this so?

Well, I'm not a "lady," but I've been itching to reply to your post, and since ZeaLitY stepped in, I'm not not gonna! =P

Of course it remains to be seen whether the columnist's claims are actually true, but, if they are--and I would not be surprised if they are--I think we can actually call it a good thing. Why? Because as females gain rights, education, and social standing, they also gain a wider perspective, opening their eyes both to new problems and to the realization of how very far we have yet to go. This is a problem that also affects people with high intelligence and people with liberal convictions. In the process of learning about how the world really is, you're apt to find it most depressing--even if you're highly privileged and have everything going for you, and all the more so if you're not--unless your psychological temperament or specific knowledge of the world is such that you can digest the injustice as a challenge, or else see the big picture arc of our civilization and identify a positive long-term outcome (but not too long-term; victory must remain within sight). Many people can't do that; they get caught up in the misery and the woe, and woe is them.

Sajainta mentioned recently that intelligence and reason can be curses to a slave; I think that's what we're seeing here. The fact of the matter is that sexism is still hugely entrenched even in our relatively advanced society. Sexism is and remains the deepest, most intractable form of bigotry. There is so much disparity, so much injustice, that, as females are gaining in power and thus are awakening age old ambitions long dormant, they are running into all kinds of problems. Free people have the luxury of opening their mind, and caring, and desiring. This is a tough world for that, if you're female, because you're still obstructed at every turn. You're hit on, objectified, denigrated, and told that you shouldn't do whatever it is you want to do--either because it's male stuff, or because the males are so much better at it. If society and most of those in it keep telling you the same thing, you're likely to accept it.

There's still a great deal of sexual segregation, even within the wider context of integration. Some of it is momentum from the female rights groups: females banding together because that's what's worked for them in the past. But most of it is socially pressured based on our mores and folkways, and the remainder is pure exclusionary practice by males.

The reason I see all of this as a good thing is that, in order to have achieved this new level of suffering, it suggests just how much progress we have actually made. In my mind there is no doubt whatsoever. I am close to certainty as I ever come on social issues that sexual equality and female rights in particular have made incredible steps forward, at least in America and Western Europe, from whatever beginning time interval you want to specify. We're ahead of where we were in the early 1990s. We're way ahead of where we were in the 1970s. We're practically galaxies ahead of where we were in the 1950s.

It may not always seem so, when you look at what passes for literature or art or video games or films or television programs. It may not always seem so, when you listen to the hatred and activism coming out of the conservative side of the nation. It may not always seem so, when you look at the status of female issues in government, both in many states and at the federal level. Nevertheless, all of these things are counterstrokes, backlashes, to the progress that has been occurring and continues to occur at a level underneath everything: the level of the social fabric itself. If females are being denigrated in grotesque new ways on television, and if their rights to medical self-determination and a comparable wage are under political attack, and if people on the street are saying that feminism is over and anything the feminists have left to accomplish is part of some radical anti-male agenda, it's only because females are moving closer and closer to males in everyday life in their exercise of everyday roles.

The backlash is inevitable, and it itself is a bad thing, but the very existence of it is an unambiguously good sign. This is victory, I am sure of it. The only problem is that "victory" will continue to consume decades if not centuries, because, like I said at the beginning, we have so very far yet to go, and all of our gains are relative to that massive chasm of enduring inequality.

Many feminists will not talk very much about these huge victories, because it's vulnerable to being counterproductive when there is such work left to do. Some people don't even see the progress as progress, because the problems which remain are so significant. These people are, no doubt, among the ranks of those who are less happy than their 1970s-era counterparts. I for one think it's crucial to recognize and acknowledge the progress we've made, because this whole enterprise would seem hopeless otherwise. The final victory is outside any of our lifetimes, and that's just here in America. In much of the world, females are living in their own special dark ages, and many countries are backtracking as the result of Islamic, Christian, and Hindu religious extremism. There is plenty to legitimately be depressed about, and those who have the character for it are in their rights.


Women already do work an awful lot to rear children and maintain the home, and to add conventional work and survival burdens on top of this makes being female even harder. In the United States, this concept is called "second shift" (as far as I'm aware; we haven't studied it too much). Done with your first shift at work? Time to start your second at home! You need to manage groceries, personal finances, parenting, child appointments and schedules, utilities, laundry, cleaning, etc. all in addition to your own personal appointments and upkeep requirements.

Ah, so true. Those surveys of how male and female free time changes upon marriage are quite telling! In this society, and most others, males are given every opportunity to transfer menial work to females, and females are given every opportunity to take on this work. Marriage, as it is often practiced, is just one more instrument of inequality.

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #678 on: September 19, 2009, 04:07:08 am »

Well, I'm not a "lady," but I've been itching to reply to your post, and since ZeaLitY stepped in, I'm not not gonna! =P

Of course it remains to be seen whether the columnist's claims are actually true, but, if they are--and I would not be surprised if they are--I think we can actually call it a good thing. Why? Because as females gain rights, education, and social standing, they also gain a wider perspective, opening their eyes both to new problems and to the realization of how very far we have yet to go. This is a problem that also affects people with high intelligence and people with liberal convictions. In the process of learning about how the world really is, you're apt to find it most depressing--even if you're highly privileged and have everything going for you, and all the more so if you're not--unless your psychological temperament or specific knowledge of the world is such that you can digest the injustice as a challenge, or else see the big picture arc of our civilization and identify a positive long-term outcome (but not too long-term; victory must remain within sight). Many people can't do that; they get caught up in the misery and the woe, and woe is them.

Sajainta mentioned recently that intelligence and reason can be curses to a slave; I think that's what we're seeing here. The fact of the matter is that sexism is still hugely entrenched even in our relatively advanced society. Sexism is and remains the deepest, most intractable form of bigotry. There is so much disparity, so much injustice, that, as females are gaining in power and thus are awakening age old ambitions long dormant, they are running into all kinds of problems. Free people have the luxury of opening their mind, and caring, and desiring. This is a tough world for that, if you're female, because you're still obstructed at every turn. You're hit on, objectified, denigrated, and told that you shouldn't do whatever it is you want to do--either because it's male stuff, or because the males are so much better at it. If society and most of those in it keep telling you the same thing, you're likely to accept it.

There's still a great deal of sexual segregation, even within the wider context of integration. Some of it is momentum from the female rights groups: females banding together because that's what's worked for them in the past. But most of it is socially pressured based on our mores and folkways, and the remainder is pure exclusionary practice by males.

The reason I see all of this as a good thing is that, in order to have achieved this new level of suffering, it suggests just how much progress we have actually made. In my mind there is no doubt whatsoever. I am close to certainty as I ever come on social issues that sexual equality and female rights in particular have made incredible steps forward, at least in America and Western Europe, from whatever beginning time interval you want to specify. We're ahead of where we were in the early 1990s. We're way ahead of where we were in the 1970s. We're practically galaxies ahead of where we were in the 1950s.

It may not always seem so, when you look at what passes for literature or art or video games or films or television programs. It may not always seem so, when you listen to the hatred and activism coming out of the conservative side of the nation. It may not always seem so, when you look at the status of female issues in government, both in many states and at the federal level. Nevertheless, all of these things are counterstrokes, backlashes, to the progress that has been occurring and continues to occur at a level underneath everything: the level of the social fabric itself. If females are being denigrated in grotesque new ways on television, and if their rights to medical self-determination and a comparable wage are under political attack, and if people on the street are saying that feminism is over and anything the feminists have left to accomplish is part of some radical anti-male agenda, it's only because females are moving closer and closer to males in everyday life in their exercise of everyday roles.

The backlash is inevitable, and it itself is a bad thing, but the very existence of it is an unambiguously good sign. This is victory, I am sure of it. The only problem is that "victory" will continue to consume decades if not centuries, because, like I said at the beginning, we have so very far yet to go, and all of our gains are relative to that massive chasm of enduring inequality.

Many feminists will not talk very much about these huge victories, because it's vulnerable to being counterproductive when there is such work left to do. Some people don't even see the progress as progress, because the problems which remain are so significant. These people are, no doubt, among the ranks of those who are less happy than their 1970s-era counterparts. I for one think it's crucial to recognize and acknowledge the progress we've made, because this whole enterprise would seem hopeless otherwise. The final victory is outside any of our lifetimes, and that's just here in America. In much of the world, females are living in their own special dark ages, and many countries are backtracking as the result of Islamic, Christian, and Hindu religious extremism. There is plenty to legitimately be depressed about, and those who have the character for it are in their rights.


Can you articulate your point again? I don't really understand. Are you essentially saying that because there is so much sexism in the world, it shows the progress for women?

BTW, I still completely disagree with the mentality that women are so held back and endure so many roadblocks to success. It is true in very certain situations, but as a woman with many female friends, I don't agree that the glass ceiling is as extreme as many make it out to be.

Uboa

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #679 on: September 19, 2009, 04:07:27 am »
According to that article, the decline in happiness is not a result of "second shift" or to any of the other things Z mentioned, which confused me because I wondered, well, what the hell else could it be?  Curious, I looked at the website for the book the guy was peddling, which he insinuated dealt with the real reasons, and yet I'm still confused as to what this guy could possibly be getting at.  Here's the link to the website:
http://tmbc.com/drupal/?q=node/28

Can anybody else glean anything from that?  

At any rate, back to the stats on women's happiness.  If accurate, they are troubling, especially the stats on happiness as women age.  I think Zaichik's account of the stresses women face balancing their career and their family is pivotal in this problem, as well as the situations which Z has familiarized himself.  (I'm not addressing Buckingham's theories until he offers more insight as to what his theories actually are.)  The thing is, there are almost countless other possibilities for the decline in happiness which could pertain to single or married women.  Single?  You have to put up with lingering sexism at your job, and this wears on you over the years.  Married and working?  You could have to deal with second shift and sexism at work.  The responsibility you're expected to shoulder at home could bleed into your work life, and cause you to overwork yourself.  Married and not working?  Perhaps you are staying at home against your will.  Perhaps you want to make a life for yourself like you see other women doing, but cannot due to the expectations of X Y and Z family members.  

I also doubt that women were and/or are properly prepared as girls to manage emotionally at their future career, or in this crazy world in general.  Perhaps it could be that "good girl" mentality impeding them or their educators.  Perhaps girls' parents were/are unaware of the challenges they have to face, and so were/are unable to really prepare them.  How many girls are educated about the prospect of second shift? or about standing up for their rights and dignity at work?  As ugly as it may be to have to warn girls about these challenges, I think it's necessary.  Girls need to understand the nature of the lingering sexism in our society, not to be scared, but to be prepared so that they're able to plan to do what is necessary to find their own happiness.

(I didn't get to address J's post because I didn't read it yet.  J the ninja strikes again.)

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #680 on: September 19, 2009, 05:06:57 am »
Can you articulate your point again?

If this were Tetris, you might say we've made it to Level 7. Level 7 is a lot harder than, say, Level 2. The blocks comes faster and they're stacked higher up. This makes life more frustrating than it was at Level 2. But it's still a good thing, because we're farther along than we were, and the goal is to either beat the game or at least get the points up to 999,999,999.

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #681 on: September 19, 2009, 05:21:30 am »
Yeah, I completely disagree with you, but that's ok. I don't view progress as something that gets worse and worse as it's getting better and better. I guess your logic is kind of irrational to me. It is difficult for me to even accept your viewpoint. We have come so far since the Feminine Mystique that I completely disagree that things are getting worse. I just don't really understand your logic, but I think we should agree to disagree.

What Zeality has pointed out, and I think you and others too, is that feminism is not on the agenda these days when it comes to "important social movements". It really has taken the back burner. I'm sure I'm going to be bitched out about this, but I don't really mind in that I think there are so many more things I care about than the state of women's rights in 1st World Countries. I am very disinterested in the "glass ceiling" for white women in the US, however I am more interested about how women of color and other minorities are treated in the work place and the various challenged they encounter. I have read some things which I find rather unbelievable, but I'd like to know more about it.

Uboa

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #682 on: September 19, 2009, 05:47:10 am »
I don't think that J meant to imply that things are actually getting worse as they are getting better.  The situation isn't that paradoxical.  

The good news about feminism is that the state of women's rights has changed dramatically over just a few decades for the better.  But, as the landscape has changed with regard the freedoms of women, new problems have also been revealed.  These new problems are mostly just vestiges of old standards playing out in new settings, the most obvious being the workplace, but also in the progressed home and in our progressed society in general.  What is insidious about these problems is that they are not readily apparent, so unless one is versed in their nature and knows where to find them they can fly under the radar.  But, as stealthy as they are, they are not without their symptoms, and I think the decline in women's happiness is a pretty glaring symptom of these underlying problems.

Edit:  To follow his Tetris metaphor, it seems we're uncovering these new problems at a faster and faster rate.  This is also a good thing, but it makes dealing with all of them seem more daunting.  Especially considering the difficulty inherently involved in convincing the majority of people that these problems are, in fact, problems, and that they should be resolved to better the quality of life for women.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 05:57:04 am by Uboa »

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #683 on: September 19, 2009, 05:49:30 am »
Can you articulate your point again?

If this were Tetris, you might say we've made it to Level 7. Level 7 is a lot harder than, say, Level 2. The blocks comes faster and they're stacked higher up. This makes life more frustrating than it was at Level 2. But it's still a good thing, because we're farther along than we were, and the goal is to either beat the game or at least get the points up to 999,999,999.
In reality it like Pac-man though, the whole thing dies at the end.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #684 on: September 19, 2009, 06:41:47 am »
Yeah, I completely disagree with you, but that's ok. I don't view progress as something that gets worse and worse as it's getting better and better.

I think you misunderstood me. I think things are getting better, not worse. However, as recognition and empowerment go up, people realize there are problems that they never previously knew were there. These problems, for the most part, were there all along, so there's no "getting worse" aspect.

Well...

There is a special class of problems that are unique to the progression of sexual equality, and in that regard, from one point of view, you might say that things "get worse" whenever totally new problems arise; however, I still see it as a sign of forward momentum, because such problems wouldn't have been able to arise in the first place in a more sexist culture.

What Zeality has pointed out, and I think you and others too, is that feminism is not on the agenda these days when it comes to "important social movements". It really has taken the back burner. I'm sure I'm going to be bitched out about this, but I don't really mind in that I think there are so many more things I care about than the state of women's rights in 1st World Countries. I am very disinterested in the "glass ceiling" for white women in the US...

If you care about other things more, then good for you. But since this is the Fuck Sexism thread and all, I think you may find the audience unreceptive. =)

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #685 on: September 19, 2009, 02:33:09 pm »
Quote from: Uboa
I also doubt that women were and/or are properly prepared as girls to manage emotionally at their future career, or in this crazy world in general.  Perhaps it could be that "good girl" mentality impeding them or their educators.  Perhaps girls' parents were/are unaware of the challenges they have to face, and so were/are unable to really prepare them.  How many girls are educated about the prospect of second shift? or about standing up for their rights and dignity at work?  As ugly as it may be to have to warn girls about these challenges, I think it's necessary.  Girls need to understand the nature of the lingering sexism in our society, not to be scared, but to be prepared so that they're able to plan to do what is necessary to find their own happiness.

And on the other side of the aisle, it seems that men are also inadequately being trained in the arts of housekeeping, familial care, and the deeper nuances of social relations and intimacy. There are obviously families out there that have properly trained children of both genders; I'd really like to see the survey conducted via experimental method, because it really could isolate the causes.

The author of the article and book denies that the "second shift" has anything to do with the data, and yet, when you take the "Strong Life Test" (it's fun and thought provoking) that's on his website, it seems to me that he is testing exactly for "second shift" factors in one's life and psyche.

Sajainta

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #686 on: September 19, 2009, 03:03:01 pm »
I agree with Lord J--the more you know about the world (or, in this case, sexism), the more horrified you become.  Ignorance may be bliss, but I for one would rather be awakened to cold, hard truth then live in a happy little bubble.

And to be completely random--Tetris is one of the best games ever made.

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #687 on: September 19, 2009, 03:28:10 pm »
I'm not trying to steer the topic away, but I just need to rant for a wee bit.

Why do some (read:: many) people think it's funny or cool or whatthefuckever to use the word "rape" to mean "pwned" or "failed" or "I completely won this argument" ?  And since when has it become funny or cool to make fun of rape or molestation or pedophilia?  I'm sorry, I fail to see how such a horrifying, life-altering event could ever possibly be thought of as funny.  And I'm sorry, but I fail to see how using the word "rape" in such an inaccurate and childish manner isn't incredibly degrading.

When people use such heavy words like that, and when they make fun about assault or even talk about it in a joking manner, what they're basically doing is making light of abuse.  They're turning it into something trivial, something that's okay to make fun of.  I don't care what George Carlin said (and do know that I really liked him), there are some things that are simply not amusing.

And yeah, people can call me a raging feminazi or whatever (not like I give a shit...and I know that's pretty unlikely to happen on this thread) or say I'm "too sensitive" (of course I'm sensitive to this, you ignorant fool), but it makes me so angry.

How are we supposed to fight sexism if we are trivializing words that are the direct result of sexism at some of its worst??

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #688 on: September 19, 2009, 04:00:24 pm »
Don't worry, I'm probably the closest thing to a raging feminazi here, at least when it comes to sexual matters. If I can survive comments questioning the penetrative model of human sexuality altogether, then anything goes indeed.

You're right. Maybe our culture's making light of rape is a factor in why men are still doing it. The phenomenon you describe seems like it would build a sense of playful familiarity with rape, and that's horrific once you look at it in that light.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2009, 05:28:47 pm by FaustWolf »

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #689 on: September 19, 2009, 04:21:43 pm »
Yesterday, I was speaking with an acquaintance of mine that is in one of my classes (twas a she). And I, upon the conversation (we were joking around and being funny with each other), found myself rather amused at the stereotypical association with women being a tad more unintelligent or unable than men. I had stated something (jokingly), and she (in a joking fashion) proclaimed, "Why? Because I'm a girl?"

This association struck me as amusing is that factor that the sexism within the world is often taken as a joking factor. Being that the very stereotypical response of "Why? Because I'm a girl/gal/woman?" must, and obviously, is derived from sexist ways, even in a joking manner.

And that, also said, leads to the fact that there is never, "Why? Because I'm a boy/guy/man?.