Fuck Sexism

[IAmSerge]

I like relationships for the relationship, not the sex.

Helllll yeah! A dinner and a conversation with an attractive person of the opposite sex (or preferred sex for that matter) is a dinner and a conversation with an attractive person of the opposite/preferred sex, and it's completely worthwhile the way it is. The supposedly scary "friend zone" fosters human development just as all friendships do, and it's great just being able to spend time chatting with people of all genders without further expectations or goals attached.

Im not sure if youre supporting me or... iddunnoo...  I think youre on my side (thank you) but I have NO idea the point you're trying to pass with this statement (sorry!).

Serge, you should see a "compatibility view" button right next to the page refresh button on IE8. The posting system works normally for me when I use that. Just be sure to copy what you've posted so far into the buffah before clicking on it, because the option will erase anything you've typed already.

Thank you, good sir! it works! it really works!

[FaustWolf]

I wasn't being facetious at all. What I was trying to express was the fundamental worth of platonic relationships with members of the opposite/preferred sex. I sense an undercurrent in Western pop culture to the effect that being in the "friend zone" is somehow useless and should be feared, but I say only inasmuch as any other friendship is useless and should be feared.

[ZaichikArky]

That's something I've always noticed. Guys like to bitch about the friend zone alll the time but I've never met a girl who felt sad because she was in the friendszone. I guess for guys, there is some stigma about being left in the friend zone due to some reasons. I'd rather not share what I think the reasons are because it's pretty sexist XD; I'm glad that some men don't mind being in the friend zone, though. I've never met a guy who wanted to be my friend and not fuck me or at least date me at some point. There's been really only one friend I've kept who at first wanted to do that with me, but quickly accepted it wouldn't happen anyway. We've been friends since 2003. That's a record for me.

[Truthordeal]

This is something I attempted to explain with the good boy/bad boy topic earlier, but failed to do so. The stigma with sex and men, especially men my age, is freaking unbearable at times. If I'm not actively pursuing a lay every night, then I'm failing as a man. Its stupid. At this point, I'm just not looking to get any. Hell, I'm not even looking for a relationship, as I've got papers to write and no money in my wallet. I don't even know half of the female students here yet, and I'm not about to hit on a stranger.

Moreover, as I've said earlier, the whole picking women up thing never really suited me. Enough about me personally though.

But try explaining that to a group of guys, and of course, you're instantly gay.

Furthermore, I've never understood why being gay was such an insult for anyone over the age of 15, particularly for men.

[FaustWolf]

I think the automatic expectation on the part of men that Zaichik mentioned is a factor in the sort of nebulous but ubiquitous oppression this thread describes, and once again, it hurts both sexes. While there's always a certain amount of sexual tension that exists in friendships with the preferred gender, it's wrong to frame the relationship completely within that context. When you've got "ZOMG! Potential mate!" firing off in the back of your brain constantly and you let that distract you or guide your behavior, you're missing out on cultural trade with another human being and hampering your own development. IMHO anyway.

But try explaining that to a group of guys, and of course, you're instantly gay.

This. Homophobia and sexism are so intertwined in our society. Sometimes I wonder if fear of being labeled "gay" drives men to seek sex prematurely in an effort to prove themselves to other men, at least on a subconscious level.

Furthermore, I've never understood why being gay was such an insult for anyone over the age of 15, particularly for men.

For once I'm going to go out on a limb and be completely blunt on this, and suggest that the stereotypical depiction of gay men engaging in "sodomy" is part of this, but it's only my theory. The (somewhat) lax persecution of lesbians in comparison to gay men seems to suggest this. But I'm probably skimming over very real instances of persecution against lesbians, and furthermore, if I'm right, feminists have pointed out that it's really a slap in the face to lesbians because it's tantamount to denying that they're even capable of sex.

[ZaichikArky]

Ok, I just randomly ran into this article a couple mins ago. Not only did it make me laugh, but it has to be one of the most sexist and false things I've ever read. Go Askmen.com!

http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_150/162_dating_advice.html

I ESPECIALLY loved:

But men are different. Since we aren’t saddled with psychologically crippling emotions, we aren’t burdened with the senselessness of separating friendship from sex. In fact, for us, it’s just the opposite: When a man likes a woman, he naturally wants to express his feelings by drilling her deep into the mattress. This is natural.

[Lord J Esq]

Thanks for sharing your story, Uboa.

[Uboa]

Ok, I just randomly ran into this article a couple mins ago. Not only did it make me laugh, but it has to be one of the most sexist and false things I've ever read. Go Askmen.com!

http://www.askmen.com/dating/curtsmith_150/162_dating_advice.html

I ESPECIALLY loved:

But men are different. Since we aren’t saddled with psychologically crippling emotions, we aren’t burdened with the senselessness of separating friendship from sex. In fact, for us, it’s just the opposite: When a man likes a woman, he naturally wants to express his feelings by drilling her deep into the mattress. This is natural.

I can't remember the last time I laughed so hard while reading something so deplorable.  From a satirical angle, this would be brilliant work.  Word for word I could almost imagine this being a Stephen Colbert commentary, if Colbert was one to make light of these kinds of issues.  
 
It's a shame that this is, instead, presented as supposedly sound advice.

Edit:  J, you are welcome.  I'm just happy, in a way, that I gained some valuable insight.

[FaustWolf]

Oh, no. Waitaminute...that was serious advice on AskMen.com? Like...seriously?

Just look at this:

If she‘s just not into you, you have a choice to make: Either stay as her friend or blow her off for more productive territory.

More "productive territory?" What the hell is not productive about simply enjoying the company of a person of the opposite sex, no strings or expectations attached?

I mean, I get what they're saying -- but they're making an assumption about the goal any man is going to have when in a woman's company. And in doing so, they're implicitly emasculating the male reader who doesn't conform to this cultural stereotype, trying to make him feel ridiculous somehow for acknowledging to himself what should be obvious. Sure, the author left open the possibility "Either stay as her friend or..." but it's clear from the overall tone of the article that the author thinks the male reader should go with the "or."

Not to mention this part:

How to avoid it
Is there any way to escape the Friend Zone? It’s not easy, but not impossible. Here are a few tips.
...
Start treating her like a girlfriend
Ask her out on dates. Take her to romantic places. Put your arm around her.

O RLY? So the male reader is suddenly entitled to the body of a female friend now? Which century did this writer spring out of?

What the hell. I see in that article the very pop cultural message that poisoned George Sodini over the years and corrupted him into a misogynist.

[Uboa]

What the hell. I see in that article the very pop cultural message that poisoned George Sodini over the years and corrupted him into a misogynist.

I was actually thinking the same thing, and I have to speculate on just how many men take this kind of crap seriously.  I don't want to think that this kind of nonsense is actually prevalent in male culture, and yet I'm not without reason to assume the worst.

The whole askmen.com website reads like a ridiculous male pop-psych parody.  When I visited the main page I really had to decipher whether or not it is meant to be taken seriously.  Unfortunately, it looks like it is, which makes me wonder just how many men do or would take it seriously.  I actually want demographics on this.  Not to sound paranoid or anything, but I'd really like to know the scope of this madness.

[IAmSerge]

I wasn't being facetious at all. What I was trying to express was the fundamental worth of platonic relationships with members of the opposite/preferred sex. I sense an undercurrent in Western pop culture to the effect that being in the "friend zone" is somehow useless and should be feared, but I say only inasmuch as any other friendship is useless and should be feared.

Would someone please explain what this alleged "Friend Zone" involves/ is defined as?  I only understand the concept partially

That's something I've always noticed. Guys like to bitch about the friend zone alll the time but I've never met a girl who felt sad because she was in the friendszone. I guess for guys, there is some stigma about being left in the friend zone due to some reasons. I'd rather not share what I think the reasons are because it's pretty sexist XD; I'm glad that some men don't mind being in the friend zone, though. I've never met a guy who wanted to be my friend and not fuck me or at least date me at some point. There's been really only one friend I've kept who at first wanted to do that with me, but quickly accepted it wouldn't happen anyway. We've been friends since 2003. That's a record for me.

I never just want to F*** a girl when I meet her.  The furthest I ever think is "She looks good, I want to meet her" or "She has a nice body".  Yes I know that it is inherently and inadvertantly sexist (because I don't think about guys bodies and how they look or if id like to meet em), but is it wholly bad?  "I would like to fuck her" is definitely sexist and bad, because its treating her like an object.

I have never straight up become a friend with a girl so I could fuck her (partially because I don't do that).  I try and become a girls best friend if I like them, but thats just to get closer to them and get the more comfortable with me.

Also... I'm assuming you don't count internet friends in that catagory?

When you've got "ZOMG! Potential mate!" firing off in the back of your brain constantly and you let that distract you or guide your behavior, you're missing out on cultural trade with another human being and hampering your own development. IMHO anyway.

If I'm persuing a friendship/relationship with someone because I have the idea that she's the kind of person I would marry, does that mean I'm doing something wrong?

But try explaining that to a group of guys, and of course, you're instantly gay.

For once I'm going to go out on a limb and be completely blunt on this, and suggest that the stereotypical depiction of gay men engaging in "sodomy" is part of this, but it's only my theory.

From my point of view, being called homosexual is only a problem because of the connotations that it has.  It connotates that I like men, and either wish to: marry a man or sodomize with him.  As a person, I am insulted because its a misdescription of me, and because the majority of the time it is thrown specifically as an insult.

Its kindof like someone calling me a muslim, because it connotates I have different beliefs that i actually hold and it is probably thrown as an insult.

In a general sense, I have no problem with either gays or muslims.  Its kinda disappointing that their ideals can be thrown as insults, too.


I would quote and reply to more posts but the general concensus would be that askmen.com is a sexist website with improper assumptions, about both sexes and even I am insulted.


now, when I say i dont want sex thats true, but...
I would go into it further but... this website is neither 4chan (where everythings disgusting) nor the Bruce Lobby (where everything can be talked about openly without consequence) so I decided against it.

[Uboa]

By the way, IAmSerge, I didn't mean to imply you were afraid of rejection when I posted that XKCD comic.  I just thought that since you are an XKCD reader you might have been unconsciously referencing it.

[ZaichikArky]

I never just want to F*** a girl when I meet her.  The furthest I ever think is "She looks good, I want to meet her" or "She has a nice body".  Yes I know that it is inherently and inadvertantly sexist (because I don't think about guys bodies and how they look or if id like to meet em), but is it wholly bad?  "I would like to fuck her" is definitely sexist and bad, because its treating her like an object.

I have never straight up become a friend with a girl so I could fuck her (partially because I don't do that).  I try and become a girls best friend if I like them, but thats just to get closer to them and get the more comfortable with me.

Also... I'm assuming you don't count internet friends in that catagory?

Yeah, being someone's best friend at first and then partner later works well in principal, but often doesn't work in practice. Actually, it did for me, but it started off on the internet and kind of grew from there.

No, I don't include internet-only friends. Most of the guy friends who I've been friends with for a long time hit on me and we talk about sexual things all the time with each other, but a lot of them don't think of me in that way too. I think that this is because they've never met me >_>;. And no, it's not because I'm some really hot sexy chick. That's not it at all. I don't think I'm hot or sexy, but most guys who meet me and get to know me really do think so and I really don't get why. I'm not sure why I even come across that way, but I just think it's cause they're lonely and somehow they feel that because my bf isn't around, it's a good enough excuse to hit on me.

And also, some guys also have to realize that sometimes a girl really does like a guy, but she's trying not to show it for whatever reason. Like, I was so horny the entire time I was in Australia and totally wanted to do my friend, and he felt the same way, so it took a lot of control between us not to go to the next level. It seems like some stupid dating advice just spells out "Oh guys can't help acting like pervs because they're guys and they wanna have a ton of sex". A friend of mine is really, really sexual and she argues the opposite. That every guy she meets doesn't want to have sex with her, no matter how sexy she is (and she has a really great body and really comes on strong to guys). It's just sexist and I don't like that. Even though guys hitting on me is annoying, I also don't like it when guys are portrayed as creatures who can't control themselves at all in front of a girl they think is hot. They can control themselves just fine if they want to, the problem is that a lot of the time, especially when involved with a girl they like,  they don't feel like controlling themselves, and end up looking like asses.

My advice to guys would be to control themselves at first and if she seems interested, move on from there. Sometimes, a girl can come onto a guy real quick, and sure, if she's into you, go for it :p.

[ZeaLitY]

A little hint; "I want to be a girl's friend, not fuck her" may sound deep and noble, but it's pretty low on the chain of being a good person or very romantically aware. Leave it in the dust and stop worrying about comparing yourself to pick-up artists.

[IAmSerge]

By the way, IAmSerge, I didn't mean to imply you were afraid of rejection when I posted that XKCD comic.  I just thought that since you are an XKCD reader you might have been unconsciously referencing it.

Nah, thats actually how I feel, and yes I have read that one comic before >.<

No, I don't include internet-only friends. Most of the guy friends who I've been friends with for a long time hit on me and we talk about sexual things all the time with each other, but a lot of them don't think of me in that way too. I think that this is because they've never met me >_>;. And no, it's not because I'm some really hot sexy chick. That's not it at all. I don't think I'm hot or sexy, but most guys who meet me and get to know me really do think so and I really don't get why. I'm not sure why I even come across that way, but I just think it's cause they're lonely and somehow they feel that because my bf isn't around, it's a good enough excuse to hit on me.

I thought not! =D haha.
Also... A girl's body is not all that plays into it.  Most of the time, all my thoughts based on someones first-sight looks are extremely shallow, very unintentional, and are forgotten about 5 seconds later.
I honestly have to meet someone and know them before I can become interested in them.  So basically, a college semester for me is like a whole bunch of first dates with lots of girls: I basically just get to know them well and determine if i wish to take it any further.  Its not an actual first date, but it plays one of the roles that a first date does.

And also, some guys also have to realize that sometimes a girl really does like a guy, but she's trying not to show it for whatever reason.

I'm really freaking bad at taking hints... both the good and bad ones V.V

A little hint; "I want to be a girl's friend, not fuck her" may sound deep and noble, but it's pretty low on the chain of being a good person or very romantically aware. Leave it in the dust and stop worrying about comparing yourself to pick-up artists.

I honestly don't know how to take your post, but it overall sounds like a hit being thrown at me.  probably not your intention, cause you do have a habit of being blunt sometimes.  Z: Also, just because I dont wish to have sex with a girl doesn't mean I don't wish to become physically close.  I do, I definitely do.  However from my point of view sexual relations of any sort is just too far.  From my point of view, sex is sacred.  Honestly if I were to have sex with someone who I don't end up marrying, it will be a big deal to me and haunt me the rest of my life.  Go ahead and ridicule me and throw your "LoL abstinence"s at me, but w/ever, its not going to change my perspective.  It will just harden it.