Author Topic: Fuck Sexism  (Read 98411 times)

Ema

  • Enlightened One (+200)
  • *
  • Posts: 202
  • Truth Filter, Goodness Filter & Utility Filter...
    • View Profile
    • IG
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #510 on: August 13, 2009, 07:02:20 pm »
Quote
Well if one didn't believe in his or her belief, then it wouldn't be a belief, yes? The very fact that one believes in a particular stance necessitates that one also think it is superior to alternate stances. If one didn't believe that a particular stance was correct, then one wouldn't hold said stance.

This is true, but when you tell me your stance on something I don't try to make you feel bad about your stance and try to persuade you.
I don't try to make you believe in my beliefs because I believe in them 'cause of some experiences that I have had that you haven't. And only I believe it because of that particular experience, so it would be useless to try and explain it to you because you haven't been through it. Plus it even goes against my own belief to try and persuade you or convert you.

Quote
I understand where your concern is coming from: You don’t like other people demeaning your religious values or your religious faith. I do sympathize, but I have no patience for your ignorance, stubbornness, or virulent self-defense. Some days you lose the fight. Some days you are the one who is wrong. Some days you need to look up at the stars and admit that you don’t know it all. Some of your peers know better than you do, some of the time, on some things. This is one of those occasions. I urge you to consider it.

Up until now it only has come from people that do not let their ego take the best of themselves. None of the things mentioned in here are strong enough to make believe I lost a "fight".

Quote
The only way to earn that kind of knowledge is to learn this stuff that our ancestors have created and bequeathed unto us…reason, judgment, critical analysis. These tools won’t get you 100 percent of the way to certainty—for certainty has little place in a scientific mindset—but they can easily teach you to recognize flaws in other people’s thinking, and in your own thinking. “Antique conservative ways” are evidently, extensively riddled with illogic, incomprehensiveness, fallacy, inconsiderateness, prejudice, malice, and fear. I understand that there are many conservatives out there, who exist because they were brought up in a society which predisposed them to such a fate, and I admit that theirs is an unfortunate lot—as unfortunate for the rest of us as for them. However, they are what they are, and what they are is wrong—deeply and dangerously so.

Umm...with the swine flu currently infecting thousands of people here in Puerto Rico conservatives, to prevent from getting infected, use masks and gloves. Liberals don't do anything for I saw many of these, and thus they are exposed and have a higher rate of getting infected. Sex, if you have it you're risking your body of getting infected with an STD, so as a conservative I consider abstinence. Sure there's always the condom but it's not like a liberal is gonna lose his chance if he didn't bring the condoms along...Hmm I could keep going but I gotta hurry here so...really please explain to me how being a conservative makes me have an unfortunate fate because simple logic tells me having a conservative way of life (nothing to do with religion or G-d) makes me have a more fortunate fate than a liberal person whose only purpose in life is to feed their ego.


« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 07:03:57 pm by Ema »

Mr Bekkler

  • Bounty Hunter
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2736
  • So it goes.
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #511 on: August 13, 2009, 08:12:22 pm »
Simple. You're talking about a different kind of conservativism. They're talking about the political ideology and you're talking about personal ideals. Very different. Many conservatives in the USA also tend to be huge assholes. That's all I've got.

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #512 on: August 13, 2009, 08:56:36 pm »
Many conservatives in the USA also tend to be huge assholes. That's all I've got.

At the same time, many liberals, libertarians, atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, sexists, feminists, environmentalists, businessmen, CEOs, union leaders, politicians, special interest group leaders, talk show hosts, radio hosts, and journalists are assholes.

Assholery isn't specific to one ideology; its rather universal.

And that's all I've got.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 10:06:15 pm by Truthordeal »

Mr Bekkler

  • Bounty Hunter
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2736
  • So it goes.
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #513 on: August 13, 2009, 09:58:09 pm »
Many conservatives in the USA also tend to be huge assholes. That's all I've got.
At the same time, many liberals, libertarians, atheists, Christians, Muslims, Jews, sexists, feminists, environmentalists, businessmen, CEOs, union leaders, politicians, special interest group leaders, talk show hosts, radio hosts, and journalists are assholes.

Assholery isn't specific to one ideology; its rather universla.

And that's all I've got.

Touchy much? I never said anything about it being specific to that ideology. Ema said he's not from the USA and he wanted to know why somebody was busting his chops for being conservative. I answered his question without bias.

And If you're gonna be that specific, do tell...what's a universla?

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #514 on: August 13, 2009, 10:12:07 pm »
I wasn't being touchy. If I was being touchy, I would've insulted you. I was merely elaborating on your point. And if you were answering without bias, you would've said why people were busting his chops specifically for being a conservative, rather than a liberal. Your answer that "many conservatives are assholes," implies that they specifically are assholes, whereas others are not.

And If you're gonna be that specific, do tell...what's a universla?

My post says "universal," so bleh :P

Mr Bekkler

  • Bounty Hunter
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2736
  • So it goes.
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #515 on: August 13, 2009, 10:13:50 pm »
I wasn't being touchy. If I was being touchy, I would've insulted you. I was merely elaborating on your point. And if you were answering without bias, you would've said why people were busting his chops specifically for being a conservative, rather than a liberal. Your answer that "many conservatives are assholes," implies that they specifically are assholes, whereas others are not.

You didn't read my whole post if that's all you got out of it. I didn't say most or all. I said many. Which is not biased. It's truth. Like the word in your name.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2009, 10:19:40 pm by Mr Bekkler »

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #516 on: August 13, 2009, 10:43:19 pm »
Assholery isn't specific to one ideology...

Assholery, it's a renewable resource.

ZaichikArky

  • Mystical Knight (+700)
  • *
  • Posts: 718
    • View Profile
    • Livejournal
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #517 on: September 03, 2009, 05:05:32 am »
I read this interesting article where this author was trying to prove that the "good girl" image was inherently sexist and detrimental to young girls' development.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32631120/ns/today-today_books/

I tend to be wary of a lot of articles from MSN, but this author brought up a lot of research that shows girls are taught to be less independent, modest, and polite and this causes them to undergo a "psychological glass ceiling". The problem with this article is that I think a lot of what the author herself says is sexist. Actually I had my bf read it and this is what he had to say:

Quote
I do not see why this is something that applies only to women, for one. People who try to be good in general can have a stigma associated with them, certainly in places like highschool where teen dickery is at an all time high.
 But what surprises me is that she seems to automatically assumes girls have an inability to rise above the limitations she thinks they have because they're girls.
I don't know when she grew up, but I am certain we have long grown past that meek, seen-but-not-heard nonsense being forced upon girls. I certainly never saw it.

I like to think that I have risen above the image of the good girl. But the problem is, I was never raised with this "good girl mentality" that the author mentions. I'm not sure if other girls I know were taught to be good and to have the good girl values the author speaks of. How prevalent is this in today's society? I was taught by my parents to be independent and hardworking. I wasn't taught to stand up for what's right and defend others, this is something I developed on my own. I wasn't taught to be modest. I suppose they only value my parents expected me to have growing up was to do well in school (not sexist because that's something most parents want from their kids). My dad is kind of sexist in some ways, and he's very traditional about some things. I would say one of the most annoying things is that he can't stand the way I dresses and says that I'm a girl and I need to dress better because all girls have to dress well and not look like a "shmarovoznik"(I don't even know, some yiddish word maybe).

So anyway, while the author does bring up some good points, I don't think that most of what she's saying accurately reflects our society which is teaching girls to be less modest and more independent and opinionated(though with girls like me, too opinionated is not really great either!).

Comments?

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #518 on: September 03, 2009, 11:39:01 am »
Yes, being the goody-two-shoes type of person is both encouraged by our mentors and discouraged by our peers. There's a lot of stigma attached to it, especially for males. The reason I say especially for males is because of the sex factor. If you haven't lost your virginity by the end of high school, you're a loser, whereas if you're a girl, you're encouraged to wait.

This is typical of just about anything "bad," though. If you don't get wasted at some yahoo's party, you're a loser. If you never get stoned, loser. If you decide that 8 hours of sleep is worth more to you than partying until 4, you're a loser. If you don't smoke, or chew dip, loser. If you actually obey traffic laws, you're a loser(as well as whatever other names they toss at you at a standstill). If you're not actively pursuing a piece of tail every five minutes, you're a loser, or gay. If you try to beat the odds and have a someone stable relationship during your high school years, you're a loser, because you're limiting yourself to one person rather than the entire female student body. If you go to a public school, and try to retain any sort of religious mannerisms(i.e., praying on your meal, praying during the moment of silence) then you're definitely a loser. Far from what people here will tell you, teenagers are being influenced everyday that God is not cool, and talking about him or following His word makes you a loser, even in the Bible Belt where I'm from.

According to this list, being a "good kid" is the most loserish thing you'll ever do, and I'm probably the biggest loser you'll ever meet.

This is but a short list though. I'm sure I can think of more examples than this.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #519 on: September 03, 2009, 12:18:42 pm »
Vaguely interesting, but I am dubious as to how valid some of the author's analysis (as presented by the article) actually is.

For example, following the rules is unrelated, at least in a direct manner, to risk taking. Indirectly I could see an argument that someone who follows rules may be uncomfortable venturing into areas where there are no rules. But as noted, this is not a direct correlation. Gamblers, for instance, are notorious for taking risks while following rules. This ranges from the average poker player to the hardcore gambler with his or her "system." Though perhaps because "rule followers," as opposed to "rule breakers," are conceptualized as more likely to perform their due diligence, their "risky" behaviors are not seen as risky as it might otherwise be?

Then there is the opposite, the "Bad Girl." The author associates critical thinking with being artistic, a rebel, and someone unconcerned with social expectations. First, artistic individuals tend to be conceptualized as the exact opposite of a critical thinker (if this is a valid conception is beside the point for now), likewise being a rebel says nothing of one's mental capabilities (indeed, "social rebels" are often depicted as having street-smarts, which is distinct from critical thinking skills). It is only in being unconcerned with social expectations that she even approaches a real definition of a critical thinker, but someone who is thinking critically may well take social expectations into consideration (they just won’t be ruled by those expectations).

Yet, that is a bit of nitpicking. There is a legitimate theme that the author picks up on: children are faced with social expectations. She does make a mistake in implying that this is unique to girls, but as at least some aspects of it are comparatively unique, it is marginally excusable to do so (most "good boys," for example, aren't expected to have boyfriends, and few "bad boys" would be characterized as wearing "Jelly bracelets," whatever those are). However, humans are social animals; we all have a very compelling drive to fit in. To be thorough, there is the conception that women tend to be more social than men, so if that is a correct conception, I could see the argument that in turn women also are subject to the drive for social acceptance more than men, but that is a pretty big if.

This seems to tap into the larger social oddity. Society expects people to behave in a certain way, but at the same time success often comes by violating those expectations. The book essentially is saying that "good girls finish last," while there has been a similar saying for "nice guys" for quite some time. Success is marked by breaking from cultural norms, but cultures survive because only a few people do this. Social conformity is, to a degree, an evolutionary advantage.

I'd want to read the book myself before passing final judgment, but the article makes it look like the author has a predetermined position and fits the data to that. To be fair, the data already fits relatively well on its own, but it isn't a perfect fit. Instead of fitting a square peg into a round hole, she's trying to fit a decagon into a round hole, as it were.

Random side note: it is interesting that "good girl" and "good woman" seems to bring up different perceptions, likewise with "good boy" and "good man." It would seem that girls get a trifecta of social drives, sexism, and ageism.

ZaichikArky

  • Mystical Knight (+700)
  • *
  • Posts: 718
    • View Profile
    • Livejournal
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #520 on: September 03, 2009, 05:09:49 pm »
Yes, being the goody-two-shoes type of person is both encouraged by our mentors and discouraged by our peers. There's a lot of stigma attached to it, especially for males. The reason I say especially for males is because of the sex factor. If you haven't lost your virginity by the end of high school, you're a loser, whereas if you're a girl, you're encouraged to wait.

This is typical of just about anything "bad," though. If you don't get wasted at some yahoo's party, you're a loser. If you never get stoned, loser. If you decide that 8 hours of sleep is worth more to you than partying until 4, you're a loser. If you don't smoke, or chew dip, loser. If you actually obey traffic laws, you're a loser(as well as whatever other names they toss at you at a standstill). If you're not actively pursuing a piece of tail every five minutes, you're a loser, or gay. If you try to beat the odds and have a someone stable relationship during your high school years, you're a loser, because you're limiting yourself to one person rather than the entire female student body. If you go to a public school, and try to retain any sort of religious mannerisms(i.e., praying on your meal, praying during the moment of silence) then you're definitely a loser. Far from what people here will tell you, teenagers are being influenced everyday that God is not cool, and talking about him or following His word makes you a loser, even in the Bible Belt where I'm from.

According to this list, being a "good kid" is the most loserish thing you'll ever do, and I'm probably the biggest loser you'll ever meet.

This is but a short list though. I'm sure I can think of more examples than this.

I find this interesting. It's like you're saying that girls are encouraged to be good, while boys have a social stigma of not being too good. I saw this a lot at school. The good boys were always made fun of, sometimes in really cruel ways if they were huge dorks, and the bad boys were always the "cool" ones. Also I really HATE that mentality of "Good guys always finish last" where a lot of guys like to bemoan their fates because they're not giant dicks and hence don't get women. I don't understand why guys think that most girls want a bad guy who will treat them poorly. I know myself, and a LOT of women, want a good boy who makes a wonderful partner. The guy I have now is so straight-laced that it's not even funny. Doesn't drink (AT *all, which means has never gotten drunk), doesn't smoke, not interested in recreational drugs, not interested in clubbing or the bar scene, not interested in hanging around other women whatsoever. I guess I tend to go for the nerd/dork type who has social problems. I think they make the best partners because they're quite devoted. That's just my opinion though. I am definitely the jealous type and would possibly be upset if my guy had other girls he liked to hang around with >_>;.

Quote

Then there is the opposite, the "Bad Girl." The author associates critical thinking with being artistic, a rebel, and someone unconcerned with social expectations. First, artistic individuals tend to be conceptualized as the exact opposite of a critical thinker (if this is a valid conception is beside the point for now), likewise being a rebel says nothing of one's mental capabilities (indeed, "social rebels" are often depicted as having street-smarts, which is distinct from critical thinking skills). It is only in being unconcerned with social expectations that she even approaches a real definition of a critical thinker, but someone who is thinking critically may well take social expectations into consideration (they just won’t be ruled by those expectations).

Yeah, that was one of the points I found most flawed in her analysis. There was a list based on a survey that was given to girls and I found that I fit some of the descriptors on the "bad girl" side of the spectrum. I just can't find myself agreeing that girls are discouraged from speaking their minds, especially since the author has emphasized that girls outnumber boys in higher education these days. How can these girls get so far if they have little pride in themselves, do not speak out,  and possess poor critical thinking skills? I really do think that in Western culture, attitudes about sexism are changing, so I think the detrimental qualities of the "good girl" that the author highlights are not completely applicable in this day and age. It's not like schools and teachers ever discourage girls from not speaking out or being poor critical thinkers. In my case, I was almost always the best class participant in class. I always spoke out the most in class and my teachers really loved me for it. I might not have been the *best* student, but I was always the most engaged, and this quality was encouraged by my teachers who wanted more kids to be engaged with the material like I was. When I went into University, I was much more reserved and was less likely to be an active participant. This wasn't because it was discouraged, there was just a lot of other factors to consider. I guess I naturally became a little more reserved, but I didn't attribute it to sexism.

GenesisOne

  • Bounty Seeker
  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1215
  • "Time Travel? Possible? Don't make me laugh!"
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #521 on: September 03, 2009, 05:42:22 pm »

Thank goodness we have "Revenge of the Nerds."

FaustWolf

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8972
  • Fan Power Advocate
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #522 on: September 03, 2009, 06:01:21 pm »
But wasn't "Revenge of the Nerds" just the "nice guys" turning mean? Hah, I'm not familiar with the movie at all though, so I could be way off. We need more pop cultural examples of "nice guys" being successful. It happens in real life all the time.


I saw today that women now outnumber men in the US workforce, or will soon. Does it mean that the average woman is smarter and more productive than the average man in the United States, or are employers just hiring more women because they feel that they can pay them less? One thing is for sure though -- in a capitalist society, those with money (now women by default since men are being hired less often altogether) will be treated better. It's a theory I have based on the struggle for gay rights since the 1990s. More products and pop culture artifacts will be marketed to women, and their social stature will rise because of it, though that probably depends heavily on the nature of their likes and dislikes. For example, if women feel it's fashionable to be ditzy, then they'll buy products with ditz-oriented advertising. But if they're attracted to products marketed via images of Sigourney Weaver carrying plasma rifles and shooting aliens, it'll be a different story.

The age of the Wise White Woman may be at hand, and the eclipse of the White Man in American culture. He may soon join the ranks of the Black Man, who is already bombarded with negative pop cultural impressions that contribute to a cycle of real world negativity.

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #523 on: September 03, 2009, 07:46:33 pm »
But wasn't "Revenge of the Nerds" just the "nice guys" turning mean? Hah, I'm not familiar with the movie at all though, so I could be way off. We need more pop cultural examples of "nice guys" being successful. It happens in real life all the time.

No, you've got it right. A nice guy being successful...

One example that comes to mind is Will Smith's character in "The Pursuit of Happiness," whose name eludes me at the moment. He was never abusive to his kid, despite practically being homeless and having a lot of other BS thrown at him, particularly because he was a nice guy.

But he made it. He didn't have a "Happily Ever After" with a girl on his arm, but he made it.


Quote from: FaustWolf
The age of the Wise White Woman may be at hand, and the eclipse of the White Man in American culture. He may soon join the ranks of the Black Man, who is already bombarded with negative pop cultural impressions that contribute to a cycle of real world negativity.

Bah, don't get me started about racial impressions. You guys think women have it bad.

Uboa

  • Acacia Deva (+500)
  • *
  • Posts: 587
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #524 on: September 03, 2009, 09:23:00 pm »
Was I the only one who got the impression that the article just tried to sell girls another image to live up to?  I mean, it seemed more rooted in practicality, but it still had this air of salesmanship to it.  Real girl is the new good girl, you know?  Put that on your mannequin.