Author Topic: Fuck Sexism  (Read 98387 times)

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #450 on: August 06, 2009, 12:56:19 pm »
I am an anthro major and though I really do care about certain social issues, I just feel like most social issues will just keep getting better and better as society progresses.

*gasp* You're a... a... MODERNIST!

But putting academic exorcisms aside for the moment, there is no guarantee that society will constantly improve. For example, the Middle East was once more scientific and open to intellectual development than the West, but now the two have switched. Humanity moves forward because people work at it diligently, but it is a fragile thing. Stray but a little and we could fall.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #451 on: August 06, 2009, 04:59:41 pm »
But putting academic exorcisms aside for the moment, there is no guarantee that society will constantly improve. For example, the Middle East was once more scientific and open to intellectual development than the West, but now the two have switched. Humanity moves forward because people work at it diligently, but it is a fragile thing. Stray but a little and we could fall.

I disagree with you here--not with your statement of the obvious, but with your example. Progress always occurs in fits and starts, and sometimes its line of continuity is geographically or sociologically discontinuous. Some "fits and starts" last for thousands of years, others a week, but much of what was originally created, or not original but allowed to flourish in the ancient Islamic world, has survived and is flourishing again today. Sometimes specific ideas or knowledges are lost for good, and we'll never know if we rediscover them independently because the originals have vanished from history; but I would say it's a fair bet that many if not most of the key innovations from that era are still with us.

If you draw a line from the dawn of civilization to today, the results are indisputable. At the dawn of civilization, even the expectation of being alive next year was not a commonly held mindset. If you have ever lived in fear of poverty or want, or of some medical condition, you know what it's like to feel unsure about your future. That used to be the way it was for everybody. Material need was rampant; our population was controlled like that of any other animal primarily by environmental factors and only minutely by our own willpower. Education and learning as we know them did not even exist yet. Liberty? Art? Thousands of years away...no one had ever conceived of them yet.

Today, acknowledging the disparities in quality of life around the world, a single individual can visit every continent on the planet in a single month, can posit self-awareness and the doctrine of the categorical imperative, can study geometry, can listen to enormous varieties of music, can communicate in languages with tens of thousands of everyday words...it's not even close to where we began.

You're right: There are no guarantees. In fact the future is fraught with mortal dangers to our whole species and even the sum of life on Earth. But history up to this point is pretty clear on the general trend of our continued existence: upward. I don't know if you're one of those Christians who believes that taking credit for our accomplishments is hubris; if you're not, then I think you can agree pretty readily on that point, and, if you are, then I suppose I can understand if you cannot.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #452 on: August 06, 2009, 05:50:18 pm »
Oh I'm a post-post modernist. Which is to say, humans are generally improving, but there are setbacks thrown in. Sort of like the stock market. The modernist perspective, however, is that there are no setbacks.

I think you're already aware of all this, so forgive me for the repeat. But if not:

The Classical perception of History was that it was a circle (or possibly a spiral downward). Things might change, but humanity wouldn't really go anywhere.

The Medieval perception of History was essentially a flat line or a dot. Humanity's always been wearing codpieces and floppy hats. Togas? Laurel wreaths? Never heard of them.

The Modern perception of History is that of an upwards sloping line. Humanity will always be better tomorrow than it is today. Always.

The Postmodern perception of History is that it is essentially a moose. It is silly to even discuss it, because, it’s a moose! How do you track progress or regress like that?

The post-Postmodern perception of history is that it has an upward trend, but "for every two steps forward, we take one step back."

To go back to my example, if I had to guess, I would say give the Middle East another 100-300 years and they're culture will be fairly similar, in terms of social justice, as most western cultures are today (though I may be overly conservative in my estimates; I would have said 600 years, but with the advent of the printing press and internet, I fully expect it to take less time for them than it did for the West).

The only thing that will prevent us from being in a downward slow instead of an upward slope is our own actions.

As for taking credit for our accomplishments... I actually don't know. On one hand, we have come a long way compared to where we started. But on the other, we are capable of so much better that it seems almost premature. It's sort of like complimenting the chef on the wonderful cake when he is still sifting the flour for it.

mmm... cake. I have some waiting at home for me.

Sorry, got distracted there.

So I suppose I would generally qualify any praise (but I tend to qualify most things, like this sentence). "Good job, but we can do better."

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #453 on: August 06, 2009, 06:04:23 pm »
No disagreement, but I would share with you my emphasis on rewarding the intention and the process as well as the outcome. The final product isn't going to be good if it's made poorly. And if you're going to commend the final product, why not acknowledge the steps it took to get there while you're at it? Predicting the outcome of various trends in motion today is harder than predicting how a cake will turn out, but I'm sure there are plenty of things people like you and I could agree upon as being productive, counterproductive, or distractive, or neutral, and so forth.

Uboa

  • Acacia Deva (+500)
  • *
  • Posts: 587
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #454 on: August 07, 2009, 04:31:44 am »
With regard to these kinds of graven gender ideals, I don't see men as being any more favorably or progressively represented than women.

That depends on the medium. Look at how John Wayne was pictured next to Miss Kitty in the old cowboy movies.

Or of course, there's my favorite old comparison: On Spike TV, you have women scantily clad if at all. On Lifetime, you have men portrayed as monsters(mostly the good looking ones).


With regard to John Wayne, perhaps his was a more favorable depiction, but given the gender norms of the day one could say that John and Kitty were portrayed equally favorably.  I'm thinking now that I shouldn't have used the word "favorably" in my post.

Granted, men are more often portrayed as strong and self-assured to a somewhat ridiculous degree, and women are more often portrayed as vulnerable on channels like Spike, and even Lifetime, oddly(?).  My point in my previous post was more along the lines that nobody can really take either of these common caricatures too seriously.  As far as gender role models go, no matter what the differences between the myriad of portrayals of men and women in various entertainment mediums, many fall disappointingly flat as both realistic mirrors and as healthy or exceptional visions of human potential.

Edit:  Changed "most fall" to "many fall" in the last sentence.  (I've been enjoying some good TV series lately.)
« Last Edit: August 07, 2009, 04:38:16 am by Uboa »

Romana

  • Springtime of Youth
  • Zurvan Surfer (+2500)
  • *
  • Posts: 2749
  • Fight the Future
    • View Profile
    • Tumblr
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #455 on: August 07, 2009, 01:04:40 pm »
http://entertainment.uk.msn.com/movies/galleries/gallery.aspx?cp-documentid=149011173&Gt1=61502&ocid=today

Quote
Boys, turn off Fight Club and put away the Xbox.

is this fucking serious

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #456 on: August 07, 2009, 01:14:38 pm »
Yeah...that's not happening. Don't get me wrong, there are a few chick flicks that I actually enjoy, but I am not sitting through another moronic Zach Braff movie.

Scrubs is over, give it up dude.

Thought

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • God of War (+3000)
  • *
  • Posts: 3426
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #457 on: August 07, 2009, 01:35:54 pm »
They missed the point. People have beloved things that they desire to share with their significant other. True, sometimes these are "chick flicks" and guys should watch them. But the reverse is equally true. Probably about the first year of my marriage, my wife and I primarily watched movies that the other loved. She saw things like Transformers the Animated Movie, Spaceballs, and Robin Hood: Men in Tights, while I saw Bridgett Jones' Diary and ... um... other movies that I can't remember because I'm a horrible person (but only a few of them would qualify as "chick flicks").

Watching such movies is part of building a healthy relationship. However, if one wants the other to watch the movie in hopes that they'll claim the Matrix of Leadership or become Mr. Darcy, then that relationship needs more help than movies can provide.

Indeed, one might well say that the relationship should "transform" or one of them should "roll out."

EDIT: Count of Monte Cristo! That was another movie my wife got me to watch.

FaustWolf

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8972
  • Fan Power Advocate
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #458 on: August 09, 2009, 08:54:36 pm »
Good Christ, there is this huge mysoginistic undercurrent in Western society I never even knew existed until the George Sodini episode (Pittsburgh LA Fitness gym shooting). Just take a look at this blog entry, the two linked blogs mentioned, and some of the comments on those blogs. Try not to hurl.

According to these sexist jerk-offs, Western society had this awesome (read: putrifyingly sickening) "contractual obligation" through the 1950s that basically rewarded the working man by implicitly robbing women of their own freedom -- I guess the rationale is that women who make half as much as men or are trained to be homemakers are forced to get married for their own sustenance -- and now men like George Sodini are victims of feminism, because society no longer guarantees every good working man a woman. Well, boo-effing-hoo. Some of the people who frequent these blogs have gone so far as to call Sodini "courageous" and taking "a last stand" against feminism. This is for real. A horror movie screenplay could not make this stuff up.
 
What unifies all these blogs is that they represent facets of the so-called "seduction community." They're the same people who say men need to fear long-term friendships with women (because a platonic friendship isn't giving men what they supposedly "need") and separates men into winners and losers based on whether they're getting any. These guys are corrosive on men's psyches; they're equivalent to the medieval scam artists who thought it possible and desirable to create magic love potions, and scientists who are trying to imbue products with pheromones to create attraction where it otherwise wouldn't have existed. I guess what they're ultimately aiming for is total control over one's life, but control over one's life should stop at the point at which you're just trying to reduce other people to marionettes meant to serve you.

The fact is, there's a statistical probability you're going to end up single in a society marked by the social freedom of both sexes, even if you don't tack on specific requirements like, "oh, he has to be 5'10," or "oh, she has to have an athletic build." The fact also is, George Sodini could have led a wonderful life marked by humanist accomplishments even with his single status. According to some reports he was sitting on approximately $250,000 thanks to his singleness if not an incredibly lucrative job, and that is not a small sum. He could have commissioned unemployed artists less fortunate than he was, or even started a potable water generation project somewhere in Africa. Instead, he bought into all this weird sexist mumbo-jumbo (that mainstream pop culture does have a hand in creating, as I've opined elsewhere) and it corrupted him into this horribly emo, "I'm going to blame society because I'm not getting my wishes fulfilled" kind of guy.

A more feminist worldview and a dash of the Springtime of Youth might have saved this man, and the women he killed. I think a couple people in this thread have wondered what feminism needed to accomplish next, or if our society even really had a need for feminism any more. I'd suggest that we start uprooting the "seduction community" by teaching people there's a fundamental value to the freedom of all human beings, for starters. I'm worried because the media has just totally dropped this story without really examining the deeper societal issues that might be at play.

EDIT: Out of curiosity, is there a seduction community geared toward single women out there? Or is this an overbearingly male-dominated facet of Western society's underground subcultures?
« Last Edit: August 09, 2009, 09:47:08 pm by FaustWolf »

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #459 on: August 09, 2009, 10:24:09 pm »
I've looked into this "seduction community" thing, FW, and the most I can get from it is the movie "Hitch," or the show on VH1 "The Pick Up Artist." Is that what you're talking about? It seems a bit less...diabolical than what I had in mind when you were talking about it.

As far as Sodini and his mates are concerned, its not so much a societal problem as it is a few nuts being nuts.

It's much like the KKK, Black Panther Party or some of the more (in)famous eco-terrorist organizations in that none of these groups really represent the mindset of the typical member of our society.

All of their values and ignorance should be ignored and left to fester with the rest of the antiquated sexist and racist dogma. However, their actions are another story. Just like the FBI does with the KKK or Black Panther Party, I think they should start monitoring some of these groups too. Hopefully this will prevent more Sodini's from making headlines.

Lord J Esq

  • Moon Stone J
  • Hero of Time (+5000)
  • *
  • Posts: 5463
  • ^_^ "Ayla teach at college level!!"
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #460 on: August 10, 2009, 12:33:28 am »
As far as Sodini and his mates are concerned, its not so much a societal problem as it is a few nuts being nuts.

No, you are entirely, exactly wrong. Your dismissal of people like him as an extremist fringe is part of the problem of sexism, and I find it more than personally offensive: It is dangerously naive. People kill females every single day for similar reasons, in this country. Sexist murder is up there with war--gang war, religious war, guerrilla war--as one of the highest causes of murder on Earth. What he did was uncommon--not even "rare," merely uncommon--only because he killed several females at once, not because his resentment led him to murder.

And that's "only" murder; there is a whole world of lesser hurt done, on a daily basis, to millions of females in this country...by people just like him--by all those who people buy into the notion that the sexes are fundamentally different and that males are superior and therefore entitled to control females. FaustWolf has already pointed out that this murderer's actions have attracted considerable sympathhy. That's because a significant percentage of our society agrees with him--not necessarily with the act of murder (although most often the only thing stopping them is their own cowardice), but with his resentment against sexual equality and against female rights.

Such resentment leads to many things, including murder. Don't you dare pretend there is no connection, because obliviousness to the obvious is as odious as sexism itself. It is the supposedly "normal" people like you who, in providing sexism with even the tiniest escape route by saying that "extreme" forms of it are somehow different from the rest, even when the underlying motivations and mindsets are exactly identical, enable sexism to flourish popularly and enable the murderers and rapists of our world to be dismissed as alien when in truth they come from us. You are talking out of your androcentric ass to call this an issue of fringe extremism. Sexism is the most deeply entrenched prejudice in the entire human civilization; it's everywhere, at every level of society, in every culture, all the time. In many other countries, people with mindsets like his are the ones who write the laws and keep the peace! Even in America until recently, people like him could speak openly without facing any significant backlash. Sexism is not defeated; it's not even on the ropes; not even in San Francisco and Seattle, your favorite punching bags of unfettered liberalism. All we have managed to do to this very day is to blunt the obscenity of sexism's worst excesses out of our legal system, and even that narrow victory has been partial. And when I say "we," I exclude people like you who think feminism is some kind of blight.

The relationship between resentful attitudes and oppressive or vindictive behavior is so glaring, and the sociological evidence of it so overwhelming, that I would more easily be persuaded that triangles have four sides. What kind of idiot are you to make excuses so idly, without even realizing the nature of your idiocy? Do you give no thought at all to the consequences of actions and to the progressions of ideas? Do you think you exist in some special place of awareness, knowledge, and information that entitles you to talk about these things which you clearly know nothing about? Do you think your own opinion is so important that it outranks your irrefutable ignorance on this topic? Would it have been so hard for you to admit to yourself--not even to the rest of us but simply to your own mind--that you don't really know about this stuff, and that intuition cannot create truth?

I've noticed with some approval that, even if you still manage to be wrong most of the time, you're at least somewhat open-minded. Well, consider this: Hold your tongue. Be quiet. The things you say have consequences that you don't realize, and to talk when you don't know what you're talking about is worse than embarrassing to you; it is dangerous to other people--not necessarily directly, but indirectly, in the spaces where sexism thrives: Your attitude will shape others; it is the interconnectedness of sexist attitudes which produces the occasional sexist murderer. When it comes to other people's lives and wellbeing, you're either a responsible human being who speaks only what he knows, or you're a disgrace and a a failure and an enemy of progress. It's that simple. Think before you speak, or don't say anything. And, by gawd, if you post "TLDR," I swear I'll kick your arse so hard you kiss the moons.

Let me leave you alone now and speak more generally...

The "fringe" is those people who are truly devoted to sexual equality; the vast majority of humanity is not interested in sexuality equality. They are interested only in picking the degree of sexism that is most comfortable to them, with their preferences typically resulting from their personal upbringing and sources of influence in society.

Did you know that air conditioners don't actually produce a net cooling effect? They produce more heat than cool, so the heat has to be vented outside the building. If you've ever walked past an air conditioner exhaust fan outside, you're familiar with the blast of hot air they put out. One of the reasons that I cannot condone ZaichiArky's fondness for "benign" sexism is that it's not benign. It's like running an air conditioner inside a room but not venting the heat outside: That little bit of cool air is quickly overpowered by the larger output of heat, and the room's overall temperature rises.

The only counterbalance to sexism is sexual equality. Absolute equality between the sexes. I cannot emphasize that enough. If you want to make a difference, you have to understand for yourself that all sexist thinking is interconnected, and that the vast base of "moderate" sexism is what sustains the extremist fringe: The two are not disconnected; the extremists are like mountain peaks on the landscape: Don't tell me they float in the sky simply because they're tall. You should always strive to refrain from sexism yourself, and you should usually oppose it or at least point it out in others. Why "usually" and not "always"? Because, for example, if I lived in Saudi Arabia I could be put to death for writing this. One must usually temper their activism so as not to get themselves or others needlessly killed or stripped of their sole livelihood. But that's it. Everything else is fair game. If you want to make a difference in this life--if you want to do your part to destroy sexism--there is no end of reward in doing so, but you'll have to accept that you'll be committing yourself to making other people uncomfortable.

FaustWolf

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8972
  • Fan Power Advocate
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #461 on: August 10, 2009, 12:38:55 am »
Yeah, that's exactly what I was referring to Truth. I view some of their underlying assumptions and arguments as anti-humanist. I mean, just look at the attitudes one might run into within this community:

Quote from: the previously linked blog
Well, ladies, you want to spurn the betas of the world [...]? Fine. But the price you must pay is the risk of having a bullet fired into your brain by unstable lunatics like Sodini. And this doesn’t cover the millions more men who will dump their chivalrous pretensions and disrespect you in a thousand tiny ways, like letting doors slam in your face. You could stop this madness tomorrow by [...] actually liv[ing] up to your claims of wanting nice guys – but I doubt you will. You’ve made your bed, ladies – now sleep in it.
Words typed in poor taste by this guy omitted. This is diabolical, because it's implying that women have to bear violent acts for the simple freedom of choosing who they want their significant others to be, or to have no significant others at all.

These "seduction community" people claim to be all about self improvement, and certainly self improvement and gaining confidence are wonderful things. However, their goal is tainted by the following considerations:

1.) They promote unhealthy expectations of direct control over the actions of fellow human beings.
2.) They employ language that implicitly -- if not outright explicitly -- denies the worth of people who remain single voluntarily or otherwise. Given that books are being sold over this whole phenomenon, I suspect they do this to generate a sense of urgency amongst single men (singles often accumulate $$ after all) and thereby increase sales.
3.) In playing up the "nice guys finish last" trope, they're presenting women as these trashy people who purposely victimize men who actually respect them, which is patently ridiculous on its face.

I wouldn't be as concerned if I weren't worried these communities are drawing from larger themes and motifs present in mainstream Western society. And as with numerous other issues regarding men's psychological health, this isn't discussed, dissected, and treated in the open. Or at least not to my knowledge. And again, women may very well be subject to the same pressures, or analogous pressures.


I'll give you that Sodini might have suffered from some kind of psychosis that prevented him from processing his emotions properly. However, I thought his particular interest in young women (as opposed to women his own age) was a sign of clear psychosis at first, but whaddaya know. Turns out R. Don Steele is probably making all sorts of money by encouraging this sort of thing.

I fear there could be another explanation here, one the media has dismissed from consideration all too hastily: that certain aspects of our culture -- aspects related to sexist attitudes and preconceptions of proper living -- encouraged Sodini to immerse himself in a subculture which counterproductively devalued him, and encouraged him to devalue himself, and that this situation warped his attitude over time. If this is indeed what happened, it's possible that in a society less defined by gender norms, he might have sought help from a professional psychological counselor, friend, or family member rather than trying to "take it like a man." That's ultimately what I'm getting at in the end, and why it applies to this thread.


However, all said and done...I think the main reason Sodini never secured a date is that he was... really bad at hand-shaking.

Now, this is a real handshake.

EDIT:  Ninja'd voluminously by Lord J.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 12:53:36 am by FaustWolf »

Uboa

  • Acacia Deva (+500)
  • *
  • Posts: 587
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #462 on: August 10, 2009, 02:12:44 am »
Thank you, FW, for bringing this madness to our attention. 

There are so many things running through my head right now with regard to these revelations.  I can't help but wonder about the events and factors in a person's life which might make them embrace this kind of attitude.  Now I know that there is a community which condones (or at least accepts as normal) this kind of thinking, but what would make a person pick up on this mindset and react so positively?  It almost sounds like something that one would have to be a victim of some form of child abuse to readily accept, to need to exercise that kind of control and simultaneously want to alleviate alienating pain and loneliness.  Is it more acceptable that a man should adopt an attitude like this than accept that kind of pain?  Is that why people are driven to this?

Also, why is it that for many men sex is always the quintessential end goal?  Why is this singular act readily accepted as the division line between success and failure?  The men who share this point of view don't seem to want a happy marriage, or a family, or anything like that.  It's all a matter of guaranteed sex, which is such a juvenile fantasy.  I guess it's one of those things that can just "stick" in a person's head, like it's the most important thing in the world.  But it's a pity that people really can't see beyond it.  Like FW said, Sodini could have been a hero if he had wanted to be, with the resources and the diligence which he obviously had.  Instead he couldn't see beyond this one silly matter in life.  What a waste, what a shame.

To tie this back into my wondering why people are drawn to this mindset, it seems that Sodini had some issues with his mother -- he called her "very dominant" in his blog.  (Apparently she was also the last person whom he called before the shooting...)  It's absolutely no excuse, but it's just a bit of an insight.  I wonder what else from his past may emerge and shed some light on this.  Would those who offer any defense of his actions be willing to accept that they are beholden to similar traumas?

FaustWolf

  • Guru of Time Emeritus
  • Arbiter (+8000)
  • *
  • Posts: 8972
  • Fan Power Advocate
    • View Profile
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #463 on: August 10, 2009, 03:34:28 am »
Thought provoking questions! I'm interested to see what everyone else's insights are on these.

Quote from: Uboa
...what would make a person pick up on this mindset and react so positively?  It almost sounds like something that one would have to be a victim of some form of child abuse to readily accept, to need to exercise that kind of control and simultaneously want to alleviate alienating pain and loneliness.  Is it more acceptable that a man should adopt an attitude like this than accept that kind of pain?  Is that why people are driven to this?
Well, as far as my claim, "They promote unhealthy expectations of direct control over the actions of fellow human beings" goes, it's probably not an overt consideration on the part of the "seduction community" members; their ideal is probably that the target of seduction will realize all the wonderful, fantastic attributes of the seducer after giving him a chance, and thus it's not really control at all in their minds. But I'd argue it's a sort of implied control, because the seducer is in the mindset that he can literally trick someone into being attracted to him, if only his "game" is good enough. It just smacks of the fairytale love potion all over again to me.

I think it's entirely possible Sodini grew up normally and just snapped inside somewhere after negatively obsessing over his singlehood long enough (his exorbitant expectation of dating women much younger than himself certainly didn't help things), but I could see where an inability to experience empathy would contribute both to Sodini's shooting spree and to some of the attitudes one finds in the more alarming corners of the seduction community. If a man's unable to empathize with someone he finds romantically desirable, it might not cross his mind that she's simply exercising control over the course of her own life, and that her decision not to date him is still a desirable outcome. I'm sure a number of us have been faced with the choice of returning someone's advances just because they're making advances; in essence, granting that person's wish. And those of us who have actually gone out on a limb and done that might report more often than not that the results were disastrous for all involved. The only time it's actually desirable to pair up with someone is when the feeling is really, truly mutual, and both partners are inspired to give it their all. Anything else just doesn't cut it, but a "me, me, me, my loneliness, my pain" mentality would prevent someone from seeing the flipside of the situation, so to speak.


Quote from: Uboa
Also, why is it that for many men sex is always the quintessential end goal?  Why is this singular act readily accepted as the division line between success and failure?  The men who share this point of view don't seem to want a happy marriage, or a family, or anything like that.
Supposedly we're wired this way evolutionally, but nowadays I tend to think that's a convenient excuse for doggedly reinforced stereotypes. I'd venture that women probably like sex as much as men do; and that men like romantic emotional connection just as much as women do. Or if there is a real difference forced by evolutionary brain wiring, that the difference is less important than we typically make it out to be. However, in our gender norm-heavy society, these dual wants, which naturally go hand-in-hand, can only be expressed acceptably in a lopsided manner.

Sodini may have simply felt lonely and distanced from others on an emotional level, but felt that his masculinity would be threatened if he confided in someone meaningfully about his feelings. So instead, he does the societally acceptable thing and tries to improve his chances of getting laid -- possibly with hopes of eliminating the emotional loneliness in a continuing romance. Again, all conjecture on my part. It's possible to take Sodini into more American-Psycho-friendly directions and say that his fixation on younger women specifically reflects some Freudian thing that happened to him in his teens or twenties. He becomes reminiscent of Humbert Humbert in Lolita when viewed in that light.


Yeah, it was interesting that the media picked up on the whole mother thing and brought on psychologists who emphasized that as an explanation for his actions. I guess I suspect the media of trying to brush aside real hard-to-tackle societal issues by labeling Sodini a simple crazy, but I can't deny that there could very well be something to it. I hope low-level media interest in this story continues long enough for this to be addressed. It just seems like the media sensationalizes these things for a day or two but doesn't address the deeper issues at play; however, I'll give the press credit for dealing at some length with school bullying after the Columbine massacre.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 03:37:51 am by FaustWolf »

Truthordeal

  • Dimension Crosser (+1000)
  • *
  • Posts: 1133
  • Dunno what's supposed to go here. Oh now I see.
    • View Profile
    • Youtube Account
Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #464 on: August 10, 2009, 03:53:58 am »
I did read all of your post this time, and the one thing that really stuck out with me is you telling me to shut up and stop expressing my opinions on this forum. You used far more words than that, but the overall message made it undeniably clear that you felt that me presenting a worldview different from your own was dangerous and supported sexism.

So, allow me to be blunt, when I say in the nicest way possible, screw you, it ain't gonna happen.

You said before that there was only one legitimate side to the sexism debate: to stop it. Fair enough. Makes sense. However, while I agree with you on that point, and several others regarding sexism, I disagree with your overall view of the sexism debate and the lopsidedness with which you present it.

Perhaps its because I'm not as educated, or perhaps even then I'll still think you're wrong. Either way, as my worldview begins to evolve and even before then, my discourse is no more destructive than yours or FW's.

Quote
it's not even on the ropes; not even in San Francisco and Seattle, your favorite punching bags of unfettered liberalism.

I've had this feeling for awhile now, and this statement finally proves my assumption. This vibe kept telling me that you and Z considered me, a conservative-leaning Libertarian, to be the same as Sean Hannity. You need to stop that. Your prejudices against him seem to be rubbing off on me, and that in and of itself is unfair. I have not once spoken against either of those cities for their "unfettered liberalism." I might compare California, a very liberal state, to South Carolina, a very conservative state, when debating a point, but nothing more than that. I hold no disdain for either of you for being liberally minded. I generally disagree with you, but I don't hate you.

I don't consider feminism a blight. I consider extremists, man haters and people pushing for a gynocentric world a blight on feminism.

Now, onto the actual discussion of feminism.

This Sodini guy was clearly off his rocker. The men who support his ideals are not going to gain any footing in the policies of the United States of America. The difference between the US and Saudi Arabia on sexism is that the general society of the US condemns these people rather than put them in positions of power. Society itself its pushing these people to the fringes, and the more belligerent groups should be monitored just like other violent groups are to ensure perfect safety.

Now, if these men do gain footing, and the public starts sympathizing with them, then, yes, there is something wrong. If that is indeed the case, then perhaps you should look elsewhere than the misogynists for the root problem, simply because they don't speak for the majority of Americans. FW mentioned pop culture, and I definitely think that's the first place to look. However, as it stands now, I doubt these men will get any sympathy and will recede to the Internet to spout their beliefs.

The seduction community always struck me as a tad...creepy. But, there are some good points to it that I can't begrudge them. Speed dating, for example, is a well-meaning endeavor that has a decent trend. It introduces people that would otherwise never meet and that's not an entirely bad thing.

The crux of the seduction community seems to always be about sex, which can be a very very bad thing. In this way, its practically the same as prostitution, except with the degree of control and the statistical chance that you'll still lose.

Hopefully, these practices will fail horribly and be driven back into the shadows. If they aren't though, then something is definitely wrong, and we'll need to fix it. Fast.

This whole ordeal has brought me to realize that FW and Zaichi were right: way too much emphasis is put on being in a relationship in American society, and people in turn, will rush into relationships blindly just to be a winner, or to not be alone. That's not good either.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2009, 04:14:11 am by Truthordeal »