Author Topic: Fuck Sexism  (Read 98402 times)

ZeaLitY

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #405 on: August 03, 2009, 03:19:09 pm »
As for myself, I met a very good friend of mine through Youtube. Since she lives in the Czech Republic, nothing of the sort would have happened had it not been for the Internet.

Well, you lucky bastard. I just had my heart broken by a Slovak.

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #406 on: August 03, 2009, 06:31:52 pm »
Well, you lucky bastard. I just had my heart broken by a Slovak.

Hm, having friends online is one thing, but I swear to god, this is the last online relationship I will EVER have. I don't care if a new guy comes along, if he professes his love for me and won't move, I'm not even going to do it. Part of the problem with my current boyfriend is

I have one other question. Can you tell me exactly how I have experienced sexism in my life? I'm just curious. Like I mentioned earlier, I find it perfectly acceptable if people think sexist things about me, but as for actual treatment, I can't really think of a time in my like where "sexism" has ever bothered me. Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean that sexism is a battle I find worth fighting for. For me, it isn't. I make an exception to women in 3rd world countries, however. I wish that more could be done about that, especially women in Arab countries.

I have participated in environmental conservation awareness and war protests, but never sexism. I understand that *some* women, and men for that matter,  in this country feel like it is an important issue, but overall the mainstream media as well as most people do not value the important of "gender equality". I know that I don't. As a "masculine" woman, you'd think that I'd be inclined to, but I'm not. I haven't seen sexism affect anyone I have ever met and so it is very abstract to me. I am not an abstract thinker. I am very practical and I don't appreciate philosophical discourse either... So I'm not really denying sexism exists, if that is what you're going to accuse me of next, I just don't think that it is an appropriate battle for most people to be fighting. Try living in Saudia Arabia or something. My dad used to say that to all my communist friends. Try living in the Soviet Union if you want a taste of "communism". Your perspective will really change...

That is really my gripe with a lot of social movements. We can say all we want, but there is a very large difference about how things work in theory and how things are in practical sense. We can cry "GENDER EQUALITY" all we want, but I really don't like that term nor do I think we need to pursue it. Instead, we need to make things as equal as we can between the genders but ALWAYS understand that there are fundamental aspects of gender and society as a whole that will never be easily mended... Baby steps, I suppose. I am generally satisfied with "gender equality" in the US. I don't like that the glass ceiling exists and a woman received 80 cents to every dollar(is that the most recent statistic) that the man receives, but this kind of information must be taken with a grain of salt. Many companies will pay men and women equally based on their work experience and which position they have. General statements like "women are earning less money" are not very logical to me because there are extenuating circumstances that really must be factored in before we can prove that it is really sexism at work .

ZeaLitY

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #407 on: August 03, 2009, 06:57:59 pm »
Explaining how sexism has affected you is like explaining how the invention of electricity has affected you, or how the existence of cars has, etc. it's incredibly interwoven with everything in the world, and affects everything. You're probably looking for some specific example, but I'm talking about living an entire life against a backdrop and environment of events that are determined with sexism in the equation.

I use this sometimes when talking about religion. If I imagine my ideal world, religion isn't a part of it, and people embrace the natural world and the scientific method. Less wars and religious strife = less defense spending, more domestic tax revenue, and more domestic investment and wealth. More scienctific search = greater advancement and understanding of the universe and greater edification. More reason = more skepticism towards homeopathic medicine or prayer-based healing, and thus more health and vitality. More derivation of meaning from present life instead of "heaven" or moral codes = greater attention to life on earth, pursuit of ethics and meaningful happiness, and experience. Less sexist diatribes and commandments drilled into kids as part of religious instruction = less sexism, more empathy, and more considerateness.

All of these factors would produce a magnificently better world. How would it affect me, an atheist? Everything would affect me. Inventions, programs, a more intelligent and enlightened populace...it'd all make my life better, just how the age of the Roman Empire was a step up from the Bronze Age. It's the illumination of humanity.

The same goes for sexism. I may not be female, but a world without sexism would be a far better world than the one I'm living in, and it would directly affect me. If you want the micro-ways it'd affect me, just look up sexist problems, like that huge list already posted in the thread.

Quote
before we can prove that it is really sexism at work.

It is, by definition, sexism, and the fact that it happens so much that a statistical average can be produced from so many lines of work renders it a widespread problem not limited to some industry like welding.

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #408 on: August 03, 2009, 07:08:18 pm »
Well I guess that's more of a personal difference. I am also atheist but I don't think that eliminating religion will really do anything to better the human condition, same as I believe eliminating sexism will better American Society. It's not entirely that sexism and religion is so ingrained into society, it just really isn't possible to expect the world to be a better place if certain harmful aspects of society were removed...

ZeaLitY

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #409 on: August 03, 2009, 07:12:42 pm »
Ha, but that's how we've gotten this far. From this world, we've already removed worse sexism, worse abuse, worse religion, worse torture, worse exploitation, worse usury, worse laws, worse conditions, and worse ideas. Human nature may be unchangeable in the short term, but we've gotten this far because we've chosen to change and create a better world, just as a person without religion would choose to make better use of his or her time than a religious person deciding to pray. We're ever on the cruise upward to farther heights, and the speed at which we go rests on the passion and ideals of dreamers and doers of progress.

:1999

Truthordeal

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #410 on: August 03, 2009, 08:04:09 pm »
Eh, just to counterbalance that point Z, we've also brought in a lot of worse things with the good. We've brought in a lot of corruption, weapons, diseases, depravity, etc. Mussoulini brought in good change when he became dictator, but his brown shirts brought in the violence that made that possible.

But I more than agree with you that things are better now than they were 50 years ago, especially for women, minorities and Jews.

But there is a difference between progress for the sake of progress and progress for the sake of bettering society. If we find an economic model that benefits the government, people and businesses, should we change that, simply for the sake of progress? Or if we find a societal balance that keeps both atheists and religious people and those in-between happy, should we change that also?

Then there is the difference between good and bad change. You and me, being ideological opposites, have very very different ideas about how to exact good change and bad change. To use an extreme case, the KKK would classify "good change" as another Holocaust, something you and me would both despise(hopefully, lol).

Now, what does this have to do with the topic at hand? You and Zaichi have extremely different ideas about how to progress against sexism.

Her's is a rather practical one: Get rid of the more concrete symptoms of a sexist society, i.e., the "glass ceiling," wage disparages, domestic violence.

Yours is much more abstract: Getting rid of the aspect of sexism.

To a practically minded person, your change seems overzealous and myopic, where as for you guys, it seems that her change is ineffective and unambitious.

The point is not whether each change is too much or not enough, but rather which change will benefit society as a whole more.
« Last Edit: August 03, 2009, 08:06:42 pm by Truthordeal »

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #411 on: August 03, 2009, 08:14:04 pm »
^ Very well put : ). I don't even know how feminists these days go about challenging sexism. Are we making a difference, what needs to be done? These are somewhat abstract questions and ones that can't easily be agreed upon. There is no one answer to counteract sexism, racism, or religion. There is no way to make the bad things in the world disappear so we're stuck with only baby steps.

I sometimes do read The Angry Beaver, but I don't agree with so many viewpoints on that site and I more read it just to be aware of the sexism that does exist and how feminists have responded to it.

Do you guys remember one of the classic blogs on that site? This one woman wished she had an abortion because one of her sons just wouldn't stop masturbating no matter how much she punished him? *sigh...* There are some really ugly aspects to feminism....

ZeaLitY

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #412 on: August 04, 2009, 01:57:13 am »
Quote
Yours is much more abstract: Getting rid of the aspect of sexism.

Oh, come on.

Quote
Do you guys remember one of the classic blogs on that site? This one woman wished she had an abortion because one of her sons just wouldn't stop masturbating no matter how much she punished him? *sigh...* There are some really ugly aspects to feminism....

How is that feminism? That sounds like religious fucking idiocy over masturbation, and even if it's just garden variety insanity, there's no link to feminism.

Quote
so we're stuck with only baby steps.

Quit being such a defeatist. I've enrolled in a women's studies class and have begun independently teaching myself about sexism and thinking of things that can be done. And there is huge arsenal against sexism, and many people like me who are older and already well established in fighting it, just as there are already prominent atheists such as Dawkins and PZ. When I've established my career, I want to help however I can, whether it's participating in a humanist foundation, having my own efforts, or even using my public speaking skills to noble ends. The sky's the limit.

It doesn't help to say "eh we can't do much." Jesus, what a downer. Try telling that to a girl wishing she could be a CEO and depressed that only 6 out of the Fortune 500 companies are led by female CEOs, or innumerable other examples. Change cannot come fast enough.

So to everyone reading this thread who's thinking it's better to pour water on the personal fire and let others shoulder the burden of change, or to all those who thinking of shying away from fear to act on the common sense that's telling them sexism is wrong, don't. Every passing day is another that women are discriminated against and oppressed, and another day lost in the lives of those who are injured. There are tons of ways to help, but the first step is educating yourself and others. Fight the power. Unleash your spirit for the betterment of humanity. You can help change things, just as I can. Fight. Fight. Fight. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise, and don't let anyone put limits on your dreams.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 02:07:35 am by ZeaLitY »

Romana

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #413 on: August 04, 2009, 02:09:46 am »
People can't say "I think this is impossible, there's nothing that can be done, oh well." There is no such thing as "impossible". With the will to fight and passionate determination you can achieve anything. Sexism is just one more obstacle to destroy on the way to equality.




And to those who call this path "delusional", so be it! It's time to open up your minds, every one of you, and think about this. What do you want to do? What are you going to fight for? And are you going to do everything you possibly can to see it fulfilled?

ZaichikArky

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #414 on: August 04, 2009, 02:58:52 am »
I am happy that Truth and I are the only ones who stand up to Z's ideological propaganda >_>.

I'm not a defeatist, I'm a realist. There is a big difference.

I sometimes stand up for what I believe in, I'm glad that Z tries to stand up for sexism. I refuse to do it, though. I guess the rest I can say is sorry that I don't feel like I should, but then again it's only people like Z who are sorry about it... not the rest of us : (.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #415 on: August 04, 2009, 06:26:41 am »
Quote from: Equality
Men and women should be treated equally.

Yeah, that's real "propaganda". I must be a veritable lie machine for standing up in service of a silly ideal like that.

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #416 on: August 04, 2009, 02:22:46 pm »
Quote from: ZaichikArky
I don't even know how feminists these days go about challenging sexism. Are we making a difference, what needs to be done? These are somewhat abstract questions and ones that can't easily be agreed upon. There is no one answer to counteract sexism, racism, or religion. There is no way to make the bad things in the world disappear so we're stuck with only baby steps.

Very true that challenging an age-old ideology that's been ingrained within us possibly since Cro-Magnon times seems a daunting task, and with feminism spefically, the movement is so multivariate that it seems there's no one leader. There's no Martin Luther King Jr of feminism; and only generalized goals, because getting a sex-positive feminist in a room with a 70s style bra burner and asking them to develop a concrete plan for eliminating sexism could turn out like an attempt to get North Korea and the US to agree on nuclear weapons policy. In that way, it seems we are limited to baby steps, and perhaps floundering uselessly, our feeble efforts even contradicting one another and canceling each other out.

But it's not useless. It seems to me that once a movement like anti-sexism or anti-racism picks up a certain amount of steam and acceptance, it's up to society in the aggregate to deliver the deathblow and move humanity forward. Each of us is part of the aggregate, and therefore each of us has a powerful role in moving this process forward. When you raise your hand at the start of a women's studies class to show that you, too, identify as a feminist; when you say to your friends, "You know, a legislature dominated by men telling the common woman what she can and cannot do with her body is really messed up"; when you voice the opinion that Sir Ian McKellan is no less of a Gandalf for being gay; when you refuse to shell out a single penny for a product like Dead or Alive: Extreme Beach Volleyball, you are doing something important for the feminist cause.

A lucky few of us stumble upon huge opportunities to become famous artists or policymakers whose voices are heard by millions, but that doesn't mean the common person can't contribute. Were it not for my witnessing common women and men voicing feminist opinions, I wouldn't have turned out to be a feminist myself. Helping to shape a fellow human being's philosophy is not what I would necessarily call a "baby step."
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 02:41:07 pm by FaustWolf »

Truthordeal

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #417 on: August 04, 2009, 03:21:20 pm »
The main problem that history shows us with the womens' rights movement is that they will gain some footing, make some progress, and then suddenly stop.

The Sierra Falls Convention had a lot of promise back in the 1840's, but nothing but solidarity was really gained for it. Although, the Civil War might have had something to do with it.

The 1870's, women started running for office and several of the western states began allowing women the right to vote. Then they stopped moving forward.

The 1910's saw the passage of the 19th Amendment which granted suffrage to all women. Then they stopped until the 1960's when the more radical feminists starting sprouting up.

Of course, maybe this strategy of stopping than proceeding works better than the other strategies adopted by minorities. Gender relations today are far better than race relations.

I'd also like to think, for the time being anyways, that an intelligent white man can sympathize with and represent their female constituency as easily as some women can. Look at yourself, Lord J and Z for an example of this. More women will come to power over the next few decades, so maybe that will prove me wrong. Until then, I'm optimistic.

As for DOA: Extreme Beach Volleyball, I don't find that any more exploitative than any other style of porn. My reasoning for this is that sex, even with yourself, serves a vital biological function. I don't consider it sexist because if you're a heterosexual male, you're only attracted to females, and vice versa. There's a certain specific thing that arouses you and there's nothing sexist about only being attracted to a certain gender. There's also plenty of male-featured porn out there as well, so its not exactly unequal.

Zaichi, common sense dictates that if feminism is something you're not passionate about, or even feel yourself adverse to at times, then there's no reason for you to support it or the way it's being pursued. There are plenty of other, dare I say, more pressing, issues that require the attention of intelligent men and women. I think at the moment, feminism has a great deal of support with guys like Z, J and FW.

Race relations, the environment, the wars overseas, imperialism versus isolationism, economic growth and theory, cap and trade, health care, tort reform, media bias or degradation, privacy rights, abortion, gay rights, gun control, corruption in the government, faith based organizations, education, copyright law, the right to pursue a hobby, taxes, conservatism vs. liberalism vs. libertarianism, capital punishment, corporeal punishment, parental rights, nuclear proliferation, genocide, judicial activism, prejudices of any kind, political correctness, censorship of the media, illegal immigration, drug laws, drug lords, the drug trade, religion, school security and the Evil Disney Conspiracy, just to name a few.

Z's posts are usually around 80% rhetoric, 20% Springtime of Youth, but that doesn't mean you necessarily have to fall in with his rhetoric to admire his passion and drive in pursuing his rhetoric.

There are plenty of topics to get fired up about. Find yourself a niche, educate yourself on it, and make your opposition your bitch. Most of all, don't fall in with the already set-in-stone ideals of governance, morality and jurisprudence, unless you're satisfied completely with the status quo. Certain aspects I am, certain aspects I'm not. The one's I'm not, I'm setting out to change by whatever means become available to me.

Make the world your own, and set it aflame with your own Springtime of Youth! And don't let anyone tell you that you can't do it, or that you'll be mulched if you stand in opposition of their preconceived motivations, because this is your world too, and you can't let the jackasses have all the fun, now can you?
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 03:27:53 pm by Truthordeal »

Thought

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #418 on: August 04, 2009, 04:38:40 pm »
Still, I wonder just how distinct "adult" relationships are from the "high school crush & bust"? What criteria should we use?

Intent and definition seem like they might be good criteria. These are essentially the same, though. The individual who defines themselves by their relationship status inherently seems to be immature in their relationship perspectives. They are "dating just to date." It would be horribly imprudent to take this too far and say that adult relationship are those in which people date to be married. However, the adult relationship has significant and intentional elements of relationship development, which there can lead.

To use an analogy, I like to draw. But my attempts at it are rather immature because I draw as the fancy strikes me and to no particular end except to draw. What separates me from a mature artist is that the artist draws regardless of fancy and with the intent of making something beautiful.

I don't even know how feminists these days go about challenging sexism.

I don't know what official feminists do these days to challenge sexism, but it is curious that in response to a simple practical question, so few practical responses were given.

1. Be the best human you can be. This seems rather after-school-specially, but one of the best ways of addressing issues of intolerance, particularly in a society where there is a sense of social justice, is to be better than your opponents. I take my inspiration from a misheard lyric: one should be "more human than a human." When basically good people are confronted by great injustice, they will awaken and behave properly. The challenge is in getting them to wake up.

2. Be vocal. This doesn't mean talking about feminism, it means talking in general. Being the best doesn't matter if other people don't realize that you are the best. Self-advertisement is the key. People like the idea of being humble and saving the world, but if you are the best, then the world will get saved along the way.

3. Get involved with your community. For example, be a Big Sister (or Big Brother): helping children is a way to help stamp out prejudice while they are young. But perhaps you'll march in a local parade, become an intern for the mayor, etc. This puts you, as a woman, in a leadership role which is needed in society.

4. Hold society's feet to the fire. If you see negative sexism, make sure everyone and their mom knows about it. Write to congress, write to the president, write to the supreme court, write to newspapers.

5. A distant fifth would be to speak or write academically about feminism. Enough has already been said and written on the topic, now is the time when action is needed. But failing that, it can't hurt.

I'm sure those who have more experience in feminism than myself could give more specific examples, and more.

Quote from: Equality
Men and women should be treated equally.

Yeah, that's real "propaganda". I must be a veritable lie machine for standing up in service of a silly ideal like that.

Meh. A better word might be "equivalently." If a clerk in a clothing store asked me for my bra size, I might punch them in the face, but it is far more acceptable if they asked that of a woman. Mono-genderism is not the solution to sexism.

ZaichikArky said that men should worship women. To an extent, that is true. The feminine form is something that ought to be praised in verse and film, but with the caveat that the male form also, and that women should do the praising as well. Where there are differences, differences aught be acknowledged and individuals praised for those differences, but never limited by them.

Though I may be an idealist to believe that differences can exist and be acknowledged without prejudice based on those differences.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 04:40:35 pm by Thought »

FaustWolf

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Re: Fuck Sexism
« Reply #419 on: August 04, 2009, 04:50:55 pm »
Quote from: Truthordeal
I'd also like to think, for the time being anyways, that an intelligent white man can sympathize with and represent their female constituency as easily as some women can. Look at yourself, Lord J and Z for an example of this.
I, too, would like to think that a Wise White ManTM has this capability. But first off, I'll nitpick a bit just to make a point: there's no specific claim on these boards to my knowledge that Lord J and I are even caucasion, and we're implicitly asking others to take our word for it that we're even male. Such is the Internet -- and that's probably why threads like the "Pictures" thread here have some merit.

But assuming Lord J and I, like ZeaLitY and numerous fellow Compendiumites, are white males, we are burdened by the precedent of Wise White MalesTM in positions of power failing time and time again over centuries to get it right, with some sterling examples to the contrary. Historical precedent strongly suggests that more variety in our government's makeup will bring progress at a faster pace, in addition to the benefit of providing role models for a variety of people. The African American man, seeing his kind devalued either explicitly or implicitly in every kind of medium -- this is a problem noted even in novels like Toni Morrison's fantastic work Beloved -- especially has had to look far and wide for decent role models, and these shoes have finally been filled in the most unlikely of places: the White House. Hell yeah.  


With respect to DOA: Extreme Beach Volleyball, since I've found the topic of sexuality in pop culture particularly fascinating since taking a women's studies class last year...

There's ultimately going to be a significant tug of war as our society, now shaped increasingly by feminism, tries to iron out more humanistic sexual norms. For thousands of years women were taught to cover as much of their bodies as possible, as if the feminine form was somehow inherently sinful, which was anti-humanist; now that the sexual revolution has taken place we're bombarded by images of bare skin, particularly within the context of marketing, and I would argue that this, too, is anti-humanist.

It's anti-humanist from a male perspective because both extremes are predicated on an underlying assumption -- that men have absolutely no self control over natural urges. Dangle a little flesh in front of a guy and he's supposed to enter a salivating, wide-eyed animal frenzy, and he'll become dumb and pliable enough to shell out money for whatever product is associated with the sexual imagery.

I'm pissed about this in the same way that Native Americans are pissed at how they're oftentimes portrayed in movies; the pop culture artifact is defining who they are as people, how they behave. And what really sets me off is that it's probably the least questioned aspect of Western pop culture. For all the problems and rampant sexism that infected the years leading up to the sexual revolution, at least the focus of some pop culture artifacts was placed on men's capacity to feel love and desire emotional intimacy. Take a look at the lyrics of a popular sixties song:


Quote from: The Beatles, "I Want to Hold Your Hand"
Oh yeah, IŽll tell you something
I think youŽll understand
When I say that something
I wanna hold your hand
I wanna hold your hand
I wanna hold your hand

Oh, please, say to me
YouŽll let me be your man
and please, say to me

YouŽll let me hold your hand
Now let me hold your hand
I wanna hold your hand

And when I touch you i feel happy, inside
ItŽs such a feeling
That my love
I can't hide
I can't hide
I can't hide

Yeah you, got that something
I think youŽll understand
When I say that something
I wanna hold your hand
I wanna hold your hand
I wanna hold your hand

And when I touch you I feel happy, inside
ItŽs such a feeling
That my love
I can't hide
I can't hide
I can't hide

Yeah you, got that something
I think youŽll understand
When I feel that something
I wanna hold your hand
I wanna hold your hand
I wanna hold your hand.


Contrast this with the lyrics of a popular 90s song:

Quote from: The Bloodhound Gang, "The Bad Touch"
Ha-Ha! Well now, we call this the act of mating
But there are several other very important differences
Between human beings and animals that you should know about

I'd appreciate your input

Sweat baby sweat baby sex is a Texas drought
Me and you do the kind of stuff that only Prince would sing about
So put your hands down my pants and I'll bet you'll feel nuts
Yes I'm Siskel, yes I'm Ebert and you're getting two thumbs up
You've had enough of two-hand touch you want it rough you're out of bounds
I want you smothered want you covered like my Waffle House hashbrowns
Come quicker than FedEx never reach an apex just like Coca-Cola stock you are inclined
To make me rise an hour early just like Daylight Savings Time

Do it now
You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel
Do it again now
You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel
Gettin' horny now

Love the kind you clean up with a mop and bucket
Like the lost catacombs of Egypt only God knows where we stuck it
Hieroglyphics? Let me be Pacific I wanna be down in your South Seas
But I got this notion that the motion of your ocean means "Small Craft Advisory"
So if I capsize on your thighs high tide, B-5 you sunk my battleship
Please turn me on I'm Mister Coffee with an automatic drip
So show me yours I'll show you mine "Tool Time" you'll Lovett just like Lyle
And then we'll do it doggy style so we can both watch "X-Files"

Do it now
You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel
Do it again now
You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel
Gettin' horny now

You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel
Do it again now
You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel
Do it now
You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel
Do it again now
You and me baby ain't nothin' but mammals
So let's do it like they do on the Discovery Channel
Gettin' horny now

I guess "The Bad Touch" is purposely satirical now that I look at the opening lyrics:

Ha-Ha! Well now, we call this the act of mating
But there are several other very important differences
Between human beings and animals that you should know about


This preface is broken down by the refrain, which raucously proclaims that human beings are nothing more than animals. And that's the most horrific message I've ever, ever seen. But what the Bloodhound Gang did was useful from an academic standpoint because it explicitly brings to light the implicit assumption of products like DOA: Extreme Beach Volleyball, i.e., that like his animal forebears, a man is driven by desire for sex with little regard to forging intimate emotional and spiritual bonds. Even dolphins and bonobos are presented as having more capacity to form caring, enriching, emotion-driven bonds than that curiosity, the human male.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 04:59:24 pm by FaustWolf »