Fuck Sexism

[Mr Bekkler]

Lord J: No, but I have an Aunt Terry and my female boss's name is Kelly. Like I said, it's a weird name. And for some reason it's now popular to name female babies my name. It rhymes with a big hotel chain.

[Lord J Esq]

Milton!
Madison!
Godel 6!

[alfadorredux]

Evidently Lord J and I are thinking of the same hotel chain... My guess is "Marion".

[Mr Bekkler]

It's  . You were very close. And I go by  . Please stick to the Mr Bekkler name on the forum though!

[FaustWolf]

You go, gamers!

Is it a sign that Western society is progressing?

[Truthordeal]

Yes, I remember reading that earlier today.

I've just got to wonder, sexism aside for the moment...why did EA think it would work, or that they wouldn't get blasted for this?

[FaustWolf]

Either EA's advertising department is run by depraved lunes, or they knew it would backfire in this exact way and give them more publicity in the media (in which case EA's advertising department is run by depraved lunes).

These trade shows either need to get rid of "booth babes" or maybe put in some "booth studs" who are at least equally treated as meat racks. Women have money too, and therefore sexism in the sense of one-sidedness cannot survive forever in the free market.

[Thought]

But it would appear that Booth Babes over Booth Studs is economically sound:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/LIVING/personal/07/24/o.women.watching.porn/index.html

Okay, I feel bad for referencing something from Oprah.com, but to be fair, CNN did it first.

Of particular note is the following section:

Even more compelling were the results of a 2004 study at Northwestern University that also assessed the effect of porn on genital arousal. Mind you, a copy of "Buffy the Vampire Layer" and a lubed-up feedback device isn't most girls' idea of a hot night in. But when the researchers showed gay, lesbian, and straight porn to heterosexual and homosexual women and men, they found that while the men responded more intensely to porn that mirrored their particular gender orientation, the women tended to like it all. Or at least their bodies did.

Which is to say, Booth Babes as sex figures seems like they target the widest portion of the population for the least amount of money, as they might work on women too.

Though even if Booth Studs were added in, I'm not sure how effective it would be. Dante, Gambit, or Malcom Reynolds, while stunning figures of masculinity, tend to have a fair bit more clothing than the classic Laura Croft or Black Widow.

[Radical_Dreamer]

For what it's worth, I have occasionally seen booth studs at E3, but it's been years since I've gone.

[Lord J Esq]

It's because all the raging hot man flesh at these events cannot be confined to mere booths.

[Zephira]

Sexism, in games? I don't know, I quite like hot chicks in my video games. It'd be nice if they had good characterization and personality, and they usually do (in old games at least). The small, timid, modest, plain and completely clothed girls tend to be a bit boring, and the more flamboyant ones generally get better roles. I suppose that in itself is sexist, or at least some form of stereotype, but I'm not complaining as long as they're written well.

Example: Nina of Breath of Fire 3. She's pretty, she's a princess, she has breasts, but she's also an amazing mage and has wonderful lines. She helps you out of lights of tight spots in the game. Is it sexist if the girls like her too?

[FaustWolf]

Is it sexist if the girls like her too?

I never thought of BOF3 Nina as a particularly sexistically (!?) written character, though I never had her in party (BOF2 Nina, on the other hand, rowrr! -- uh, even though I've never played BOF2, just seen the artwork and sprites). I always had Momo in when I felt the party needed some estrogen content because Momo had a bazooka, which beats any other weapon.

Whether something is still sexist if the sex typically targeted by the supposed sexism (say it three times fast!) is a fantastic question. There seems to be a consensus among most feminists that a pro-life stance is automatically sexist even if women espouse pro-life views; I'd be willing to bet that pro-life women have an even harder time trying to self-identify as legitimate feminists than straight men do. It is a common attitude that the Islamic hijab is sexist even if women find a humanist interpretation in it and embrace it (though by no means a consensus, with a sort of cultural relativism seeming to become more mainstream in Third Wave feminism). A second wave feminist might pronounce makeup marketed to women sexist, even though third wave feminists like Jessica Valenti embrace it.

In short, it probably depends on who you ask, as feminism is such an attitudinally(!?) fluid movement. I think it's certainly possible for a woman to promote things that are counterproductive to women's rights, just as a few African Americans have owned slaves in US history. I seem to remember a quote from Queen Elizabeth I to the effect that women's rights were somehow not necessary in her day and age, but now I can't find it -- was it apocryphal? I could have sworn it was in a history text I read in high school.

But as for the specific issue of judging whether a videogame character is sexistically(!?) written, I think it depends on whether the character tends to make players of either gender respect the character or dismiss the character as either a ditz or the bauble of a hero more central to the plot. Despite all my sensibilities about Tifa's appearance in Final Fantasy VII, I admire her for her inner emotional strength and perseverence more than any other single videogame character.

I like making up new words. Hopefully they're grammatically correct if not semantically correct.

[Truthordeal]

Well guys I took some of y'all's advice and decided to read up a little on sexism, and I ran into an interesting little bit that I thought I would ask your opinions about.

The issue I found was called "benevolent" sexism, which is opposite to the more common misogynistic "hostile" sexism.

Basically "benevolent" sexism is, not to make light of it, chivalry, while "hostile" sexism is misogyny or objectification(spellcheck says that's a word, while, ironically enough, "spellcheck" isn't a word.)

So, females and feminists, what do y'all think on the matter? Is "benevolent" sexism actually sexist? And if it is, is it necessarily a "bad" form of sexism or is it one that will push feminism?

I dunno. Have at it.

[Zephira]

I think benevolent sexism means you'll be polite and hold doors open for women but not men (or vice versa, depending on sexual preferences). There's nothing wrong with being polite, but it's pretty stupid to be polite only towards one gender.

[FaustWolf]

I have to agree with Zephira here, the implication IMO being that in the case of chivalry, it's the male gender that's being poo-poo'd upon while women receive preferential treatment. Not that the male reader should try letting a door slam in his girlfriend's face next time they're on a date, but rather that he should hold the door open for her and the next person(s) in close proximity. Or let her open the door for him and the next person(s) in close proximity, when she wins the race to the door.

However, as a recovering ultra-chivalrist myself, I still grieve for the fact that some types of women have never benefited from this so-called chivalry. Maybe most types of women throughout world history never have.

That man over there says that women need to be helped into carriages, and lifted over ditches, and to have the best place everywhere. Nobody ever helps me into carriages, or over mud-puddles, or gives me any best place! And ain't I a woman? Look at me! Look at my arm! I have ploughed and planted, and gathered into barns, and no man could head me! And ain't I a woman? I could work as much and eat as much as a man - when I could get it - and bear the lash as well! And ain't I a woman? I have borne thirteen children, and seen most all sold off to slavery, and when I cried out with my mother's grief, none but Jesus heard me! And ain't I a woman?