Author Topic: Cease & Desist Letter  (Read 122940 times)

Dark Serge

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #330 on: May 12, 2009, 10:11:27 am »
So, all we need to do is raise $150,000 and we get the hack?   8)

I think they really mean that if they release it, they will be fined $150,000 for the damage done, and probably all copies on the internet and on the creator's PC's would have to be terminated as soon as possible.

There is a chance, but who's gonna pay 150,000 bucks for CE?

knuck

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #331 on: May 12, 2009, 10:23:02 am »
Dunno why people are still talking about this. You people know what needs to be done. Begging for some lawyers to allow you to use SE's IP won't do shit.
Until the day comes when a fangame says "fuck you" to C&Ds, this will keep happening. When/if that day comes, SE will realize that it's more profitable to work with the fans (Valve anyone?) than simply sending C&D letters.
We need fans with balls. Fans who don't care about being recognized and are willing to never be credited for a fangame, just because they believe in the dream of making the fangame become a reality. If you're not willing to do that, you shouldn't be called a real fan. :P

mav

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #332 on: May 12, 2009, 10:51:57 am »
First off, this wasn't necessarily an issue about taking credit for the mounds of work that was done, it was an issue in professionalism. How would SE act more like Valve if all their fans kept everything secret? In truth the C&D letter that the CE team received sent a shock wave to Chrono fans and ROM hackers alike. And with this C&D letter the team has been given the chance to offer up some sort of rebuttal or counterpoint. Honestly, these guys are taking a huge jab for ROM hackers worldwide, by acting professionally and put their gigantic balls out on the line.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #333 on: May 12, 2009, 10:52:09 am »

Thought

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #334 on: May 12, 2009, 11:08:30 am »
if there wasn't a possible $150k involved, I might agree. but no. theres money.

While I could be wrong, it sounded like that was per instance (once for each proptery infringed upon). Legalese is never clear, but that letter was particularly so, it seemed. As such, it could be $450K, once for CT, once for CC, and once for RD. Or it could be more, if individual components are protected.

Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it: when the same exact thing happened 5 years ago with Chrono Resurrection, me and others noted that this kind of project should be kept secret with no way for the corporation to get you. Anonymous style.

Anonymity is a fantasy. What keeps the internet largely anonymous is laziness and lack of resources.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 11:36:29 am by Thought »

IAmSerge

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #335 on: May 12, 2009, 12:22:16 pm »
if there wasn't a possible $150k involved, I might agree. but no. theres money.

While I could be wrong, it sounded like that was per instance (once for each proptery infringed upon). Legalese is never clear, but that letter was particularly so, it seemed. As such, it could be $450K, once for CT, once for CC, and once for RD. Or it could be more, if individual components are protected.

Those who ignore history are bound to repeat it: when the same exact thing happened 5 years ago with Chrono Resurrection, me and others noted that this kind of project should be kept secret with no way for the corporation to get you. Anonymous style.

Anonymity is a fantasy. What keeps the internet largely anonymous is laziness and lack of resources.

yes, they did say per article...

...however, I think most everyone here just keeps referring to it as "150000"... and if we are going to go big onto specifics then it would be a number that is between 200(I dont know base number) and 150000, that could possibly be multiplied by unknown integer N....

But yes, per article/whatever it is indeed.

Vehek

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #336 on: May 12, 2009, 01:07:13 pm »
Looks like Nightcrawler had a majority opinion of one person in closing the Personal Projects forum thread, because the C&D feels fake to him.

Look at what he's saying now:
Quote from: Nightcrawler
By the way guys, if you ever actually get a real person's name and contact information confirming the C&D, please let me know. I'm still waiting...

All these calls you've made confirming this and you can't provide any actual facts. I have half a mind to ban you from the site for this stunt. It really makes us look bad. We're supposed to be a credible source. Thanks for wasting everybody's time.
Is there anything that can be done to convince him?

ZeaLitY

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #337 on: May 12, 2009, 01:16:39 pm »
Looks like someone has a case of the srs bsns. Let him think what he wants.

Chrono'99

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #338 on: May 12, 2009, 01:22:47 pm »
Yup, who cares? Making him "look bad" is the least of our problems, really. Most people agree it's true on all the other forums.

placidchap

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #339 on: May 12, 2009, 01:25:52 pm »
if there wasn't a possible $150k involved, I might agree. but no. theres money.

While I could be wrong, it sounded like that was per instance (once for each property infringed upon). Legalese is never clear, but that letter was particularly so, it seemed. As such, it could be $450K, once for CT, once for CC, and once for RD. Or it could be more, if individual components are protected.

I believe it is 150k per each hack that is considered "one work", not each property.  So Prophet's Guile could be considered one and Crimson Echoes could be considered another or they could be both considered "one work", as in they are both hacks of CT, so they could be considered one work (compiliation) of hacking CT.

Everyone is focused on the maximum 150k, but the probability of that occurring is not very high.  The court decides the fine which in this case is between $750 and 150k, since it is considered willful.  If it was not mentioned that it was a willfull breach of copyright, the fine would have been between $200 and 30k.  A case could have easily been made that it was an unwillingly breached, considering SE's lack of action regarding Prophet's Guile.  

150k is a scare tactic.  This hack will not cost SE 150k.  Or it might indirectly if people are pissed enough not to buy SE products after this debacle.
The hack is based on the SNES version, not the DS one.  If people want the new content or a portable version of CT, they will get the DS version.  If people already have that or just want a new CT game...they can only go to one place since SE is seemingly not doing anything with the IP.  I suppose it is understandable if they have a new Chrono game in the pipes, but I wouldn't hold my breath.  CT:CE would have only bolstered suppost for the series, possibly even boosting CT:DS sales with desire to relive the original + new content.  Instead they chose aim and fire at their own feet.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2009, 01:47:04 pm by placidchap »

ZeaLitY

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #340 on: May 12, 2009, 01:29:06 pm »
There's another catch with criminal prosecution, though. Ramsus read the entire fair use provisions the other day, and there's a provision in there about distribution...something like, certain thresholds for number of people an infringing work is distributed to that add extra damages, including possible jail time.

KebreI

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #341 on: May 12, 2009, 01:35:08 pm »
So you guys are removing Temporal Flux as well? Damn it.

placidchap

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #342 on: May 12, 2009, 01:44:42 pm »
I don't believe they would apply, but then again I am not a copyright lawyer.

"S 506. Criminal Offenses.  (two sections after the fines and penalties)

Any person who willfully infringes a copyright shall be punished as provided under section 2319 of title 18, if the infringement was committed
(A) for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain; (no financial gain involved)

(B) by the reproduction or distribution, including by electronic means, during any 180-day period, of 1 or more copies or phonorecords of 1 or more copyrighted works, which have a total retail value of more than $1,000; or  (since this is not competing with CT:DS sales, I would say N/A)

(C) by the distribution of a work being prepared for commercial distribution, by making it available on a computer network accessible to members of the public, if such person knew or should have known that the work was intended for commercial distribution.
(commercial distribution?  no)"

Though you might be responsible for SE's costs and attorney's fees, at the courts descretion. (section 505)

Roth Mantel

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #343 on: May 12, 2009, 01:50:14 pm »
I am very sorry to hear about this as I had been looking forward to the release for some time now. It's unfortunate, but compliance with the letter is probably a wise choice. As someone with an intellectual interest in IP law, I would be very interested in seeing all the arguments made and resolved because this is really an unusual claim that SE is threatening to bring. I would not, however, want to finance it, so I can't blame the CE team for exercising their discretion.  One of the more interesting arguments (well, to me anyway) is that, at least with regards to a potential civil copyright infringement claim, it should arguably be barred by laches due to an unreasonable delay in asserting their rights. There's currently a split in the federal circuit courts about whether the laches doctrine can apply to copyright infringement claims with the 6th, 9th, 10th, and 11th circuits having held that laches may apply in "unusual" circumstances, and the 4th circuit holding that laches can never bar a copyright infringement claim brought within the statute of limitations.

If this had occurred a couple of years later, then perhaps I could have been of some practical assistance, but under the circumstances I can only offer my moral support for your continuing efforts to advance the series we all love.

Disclaimer: nothing in this post is legal advice or should be used as a substitute for legal advice, no attorney-client or other relationship is intended to be formed, etc...

Vehek

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Re: Cease & Desist Letter
« Reply #344 on: May 12, 2009, 01:50:20 pm »
Yup, who cares? Making him "look bad" is the least of our problems, really. Most people agree it's true on all the other forums.
I guess Nightcrawler will probably look more worse if Square-Enix publicly confirms the C & D than accepting "false" news.