Dalton and the Blackbird

[maggiekarp]

Yes, but HOW did he get an army? How did they get so powerful? How was he able to convince them to attack Guardia when they were seemingly peaceful with one another? What happened to Guardia's army and technology and super powerful items?

[Thought]

Your right, but remember Dalton had an entire army. Why wouldn't they all have elements?

Because elements would have been a non-issue.

They come from El Nido, which is protected by FATE, which had the specific goal of preventing El Nido from aversely influencing the Timeline. Either Elements were significant enough to change the timeline, in which case FATE wouldn't have let them out of El Nido, or they were insignificant enough to not change the timeline, in which case it wouldn't matter if Porre's army had them.

Elements might have been involved in the fall of Guardia, but they logically could not have played a significant role. At best, they were the rainbow sprinkles on Dalton's Sunday of Victory.

[Acacia Sgt]

Yes, but HOW did he get an army? How did they get so powerful? How was he able to convince them to attack Guardia when they were seemingly peaceful with one another? What happened to Guardia's army and technology and super powerful items?

Well, it's possible Porre was already half-way through all that, and Dalton just used that to his advantage once he arrived there, or in the case they didn't planned any military campaign, after Dalton arrived he was responsible for their military rise.

[Dark Serge]

Yes, but HOW did he get an army? How did they get so powerful? How was he able to convince them to attack Guardia when they were seemingly peaceful with one another? What happened to Guardia's army and technology and super powerful items?

To know that, you'll have to wait until Square announces Chrono Crusade: The Rise of Porre

@ Thought: I don't think FATE would (or could, for that matter) stop people from taking elements outside of El Nido. And their significance; we've seen first-hand how significant they are, right? I doubt the lvl 1 Elements would matter much, but an army with lvl 5+ Elements equipped VS people who don't know magic...

[Acacia Sgt]

Even if FATE could stop it, I don't think that's what it wanted. After all, it let Viper and the others go to the mainland during the war. Guardia's fall was important if that allowed making an exception to the rule.

[Thought]

@ Thought: I don't think FATE would (or could, for that matter) stop people from taking elements outside of El Nido. And their significance; we've seen first-hand how significant they are, right? I doubt the lvl 1 Elements would matter much, but an army with lvl 5+ Elements equipped VS people who don't know magic...

It was mind controlling the entire populace of El Nido. It could prevent them from selling Elements to Porre and it could have controlled theives to steal any that the army managed to get. A handful might have been able to get out into the wide world even if FATE didn't want them to, but not enough for an army.

Even if FATE could stop it, I don't think that's what it wanted. After all, it let Viper and the others go to the mainland during the war. Guardia's fall was important if that allowed making an exception to the rule.

Exactly! If FATE wasn't worried about the Elements leading to the Fall of Guardia, then that was either because the Elements couldn't tip the scales or because the Fall of Guardia happened before the Time Crash (thus not being an event Fate needed to prevent), which meant that there was a timeline in which Guardia fell without El Nido existing in the world (thus, a fall sans elements). If Porre didn't need elements then, it wouldn't need them now. And if Porre did need them then, they wouldn't have had access to them now.

[Dark Serge]

Mind controlling? FATE instructs the El Nido inhabitants via the Records of FATE, yes, but I doubt it's mind controlling. Think of all the inhabitants who join up with Serge and end up fighting FATE.

In the 1005 AD of Keystone T-2, Chronopolis has been there since 12,000 BC. I don't think it's possible to say if the Fall of Guardia happened in the Lavos timeline or not.

Or, FATE just didn't care about the Fall of Guardia and let it happen.

[Acacia Sgt]

Of course that in the Lavos timeline it didn't happened.

It's in Keystone T-1 where an El Nido-less world witnessed the Fall of Guardia.

[Dark Serge]

Of course that in the Lavos timeline it didn't happened.

It's in Keystone T-1 where an El Nido-less world witnessed the Fall of Guardia.

Yeah that's what I meant. How can you be so sure about that?

[Acacia Sgt]

Because in the mainland things went the same in both Keystones (at least until 920 AD). But I don't think that makes that much of a difference to make Guardia not fall in T-1.

[Dark Serge]

Well, if Guardia didn't fall in T-1, it means that Porre defeated Guardia thanks to El Nido's existence. Looking at it like that, it does seem like a long shot.

Argh, this gives me a headache

[Acacia Sgt]

Actually, RD confirms it, since it's a variation of T-1. Guardia still fell to a militaristic Porre. They don't need El Nido.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Dalton and his cronies had the know-how how to make the Epoch flyable.

[Thought]

Well, if Guardia didn't fall in T-1, it means that Porre defeated Guardia thanks to El Nido's existence. Looking at it like that, it does seem like a long shot.

Except Guardia couldn't have fallen thanks to El Nido's direct influence on the outside world. True, FATE didn't control the residents like mindless zombies, but it was able to utterly change people's lives by causing them to give up or take up this or that activity. Preventing them from shipping Elements to the outside world is hardly much of a stretch of its capabilities.

This isn't to say that Elements could have been the cause, certainly, but as it stands, elements are a very unlikely cause. A different area of investigation is more likely to be profitable.

[V_Translanka]

I'm sure he had at least some advanced knowledge of engineering in like we would if we traveled to a somewhat backwards culture and told them junk they might not know like, "Did you know you can make limestone from gunpowder?" (where my juggalos at? lol)...but I highly doubt he just happened to have the Blackbird blueprints on-hand when he went through his failed summoning...there's also that Magical prowess he would have over everyone...or he could just burp/fart at them...>_>

It may or may not also be interesting to note that the Level 7 yellow summon Element is Golem...Though idk if it's the same word in both Japanese versions making it an actual reference or if it was just a generic word used to call it in CC that happened to be the name of those bosses from CT...*shrugs* They don't really look especially like one another...


(Golem left, ThundaSnake right)