Author Topic: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...  (Read 6613 times)

idioticidioms

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2009, 09:41:59 pm »
actually, the FMV doesn't state that it's NOT the pendant, in any way shape or form, and they could have meant it to be taken by fans that it WAS the pendant. As I said, when something glows/shines like that, it's hard to see what's at the center of it. Not to say that it wasn't easy to mistake it for something else, just that they could have very possibly meant it to be the pendant in the FMV and didn't do a very good job of presenting it as such.

maggiekarp

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2009, 01:52:16 am »
Pendant seems to make the most sense.

I hate using the cutscenes to look for canon, since they have Ayla beat up Reptites with a club, and in the one we're currently discussing, Janus is smiling and calm when he does his death prediction, when in the game he was more upset by the whole black wind business.

FouCapitan

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2009, 03:36:55 am »
Pendant seems to make the most sense.

I hate using the cutscenes to look for canon, since they have Ayla beat up Reptites with a club, and in the one we're currently discussing, Janus is smiling and calm when he does his death prediction, when in the game he was more upset by the whole black wind business.
I know right.  You see him saying that and you just imagine a little kid's voice there.

"Hey I feel a dark evil wind surrounding you, somebody here is gonna die soon, got any candy?"

Maybe if this game was designed by John Carpenter that'd make some sense.

hiddensquire

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2009, 03:42:51 am »
Personally, I had always assumed the sparkle was Crono's soul long before I ever saw the anime cutscene version.  Fou made a sub-par case for it being the pendant, but i.i. was the one who convinced me with his interpretation:

Actually, a different theory that could arise from this is that since the pendant derives it's energy from the Mammon Machine and since the Mammon Machine derives it's energy from Lavos, that the Pendant is infused with lavos' energy, which we all know to be self-preserving. Lavos' Energy gave the Mammon Machine the power to fight back with it's energy, so it's very possible that at the point that Lavos destroys Crono, that the Lavos energy in the Pendant reacts and removes itself from Crono's body so as to survive. This would explain the shining aura around it in both the old version and the new.

And, when something shines like that, it is hard to make out what is at the center of the shine. Honestly, if something I had been wearing around my neck as a necklace suddenly rose up into the air, glowing, I would be pretty amazed at it and prone to stare in wonder.

It makes perfect sense.

I have a further interpretation, though.  What if it's both?  What if Crono's soul entered/attached to/hung around the pendant at the point of his death?  This hypothesis draws its support from the scene where the party wakes up and the nameless man comes in and tells them that he found the pendant inexplicably next them "like a guardian."

Edit: There's another item that mysteriously follows the party around without the party's influence: The Epoch.  Gaspar refers to it as having something of a will of its own, but never elaborates on it beyond that.  I have always suspected is that this is due to Belthasar's spirit somehow being within the Epoch, but I freely admit it could just as easily be a programmed AI.
« Last Edit: March 17, 2009, 04:00:17 am by hiddensquire »

Zephira

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2009, 03:51:19 am »
"Hey I feel a dark evil wind surrounding you, somebody here is gonna die soon, got any candy?"
Janus scaring people with death threats/omens and asking for candy... great, now I can't get that image out of my head. Thanks Captain.

I hadn't actually seen this anime cutscene until CTDS came out. Even so, I never thought of the sparkle as the pendant. I figured Crono gave it back right after they met in Leene Square, and completely forgot about it afterward. I thought the sparkle was some sort of (failed?) spell, perhaps the beginnings of Luminaire. But the sparkle == pendant theory makes the most sense.
Another nail in the coffin: If that sparkle is Crono's soul, then how is he able to stare at it in wonder/awe/wtf? If it already left his body, he should already be dead, or at least a vegetable incapable of surprise/emotion.

KebreI

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2009, 03:59:53 am »
Unless you could live without a soul, a la Robo.

FouCapitan

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2009, 04:06:38 am »
Personally, I had always assumed the sparkle was Crono's soul long before I ever saw the anime cutscene version.  Fou made a sub-par case for it being the pendant, but i.i. was the one who convinced me with his interpretation:

Actually, a different theory that could arise from this is that since the pendant derives it's energy from the Mammon Machine and since the Mammon Machine derives it's energy from Lavos, that the Pendant is infused with lavos' energy, which we all know to be self-preserving. Lavos' Energy gave the Mammon Machine the power to fight back with it's energy, so it's very possible that at the point that Lavos destroys Crono, that the Lavos energy in the Pendant reacts and removes itself from Crono's body so as to survive. This would explain the shining aura around it in both the old version and the new.

And, when something shines like that, it is hard to make out what is at the center of the shine. Honestly, if something I had been wearing around my neck as a necklace suddenly rose up into the air, glowing, I would be pretty amazed at it and prone to stare in wonder.

It makes perfect sense.

I have a further interpretation, though.  What if it's both?  What if Crono's soul entered/attached to/hung around the pendant at the point of his death?  This hypothesis draws its support from the scene where the party wakes up and the nameless man comes in and tells them that he found the pendant inexplicably next them "like a guardian."

That's a stretch with no evidence to support it since we've never seen any cases of dreamstone pendants being able to house human souls.  Your theory also does nothing to explain how he's fine and dandy while lacking his soul after being pulled through the portal with the time egg.  Was his soul just roaming the earth for 14,300 years waiting for his body to pop up somewhere?  Did it pop out of the pendant back into his body without anyone seeing, commenting, explaining or suggesting this in game?

It's just a really long stretch of hypotheses.  Makes no sense.

Janus scaring people with death threats/omens and asking for candy... great, now I can't get that image out of my head. Thanks Captain.

Any time.   :D

Zephira

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2009, 04:22:27 am »
Sparkle == pendant is a stretch of hypothesis too. The sprite used is different than any other time the pendant is seen. When using the pendant to open the sealed door, the necklace sprite is used with a little sparkle effect. Showing just a sparkle instead of sparkle and necklace could either mean that it's just shining brighter than it usually does, or it's not the pendant at all. The old man's "found this pendant, almost like it was guarding you" line is the only piece of evidence for sparkle == pendant. But as there's really nothing else in-game to explain it, it's the only viable hypothesis.

When I saw the cutscene, Crono's surprised face looked kind of like a "wow, I can do weird magic!" expression. He never had Luminaire at this point in my files, so he could tried using a spell he wasn't ready for.
I think I'll join the party of people who don't like using the anime cutscenes for canon.

Another (weak) hypothesis: What if the sparkle is Doreen? When Masa and Mune are out playing around, the Masamune sword loses its form, and perhaps the dream creatures can take on energy forms as well. This could be the same for Doreen and the pendant (assuming she inhabits it). It would explain the pendant's perceived locomotion and will to survive.

Janus scaring people with death threats/omens and asking for candy... great, now I can't get that image out of my head. Thanks Captain.
Any time.   :D
Even worse. Magus demanding candy. At least the death threats are normal there.

hiddensquire

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #23 on: March 17, 2009, 04:25:33 am »
Unless you could live without a soul, a la Robo.

Don't be ridiculous.  Any advanced A.I. worth its snuff always contains this line within its programming:
Code: [Select]
#include <soul>
@Fou: Well, there aren't a whole lot of cases of dreamstone pendants period, so, I don't see how it's reasonable for you to ask me to point out another case.  As for how Crono is fine and dandy when he's rescued, simple; he hadn't died yet, so his soul was still in his body.  The pendant rises and gets all glowy a la i.i.'s explanation regardless of whether a soul bonds to it or not.  In the "original" timeline, though, he was still dead, and I wouldn't be the first person to suggest that souls can transcend space-time, and further, cross into alternate timelines.  I realize this begs the question of whether or not this makes for essentially duplicate Crono souls; one soul in the pendant and one in the rescued Crono.  Wouldn't that be interesting if Crono was basically carrying himself the whole game after that?  Haha, really though, the lost soul would probably just move on to the afterlife after Crono was rescued.

FouCapitan

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #24 on: March 17, 2009, 04:27:34 am »
Sparkle == pendant is a stretch of hypothesis too. The sprite used is different than any other time the pendant is seen.

The first gate.  When Marle steps up to the telepod.  Her pendant starts shining before she is transported into the gate with the same sprite as when Crono dies.

Xenterex

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #25 on: March 17, 2009, 06:40:07 am »
Personally, I just about always had Frog in my party at this point of the game on a new game play through so he could take advantage of the spiffy anti-mage weapons he gets in the ocean palace.  As such, the moment before Crono dies, rather than just say "Crono" like Marle and Ayla do in the linked video, Frog says "Crono, desist!"  So I always assumed then that Crono was resisted and fighting against the power drain that Lavos used on Magus, and in turn, Lavos ends up having to obliterate Crono.  Furthermore,  Crono has a feint white glow during the whole lightning part whereas Magus glows red.

One last thing about the "glowing orb" of question.  Not only does it rise up, but once they leave Lavos' shiny blue realm there, the orb has shifted position, and lands on the ground. The landing would be another indicator the object would be physical in nature, so another point for being the pendant.

placidchap

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #26 on: March 17, 2009, 08:08:30 am »
It was his soul going into a dragonball.

Thought

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #27 on: March 17, 2009, 11:16:51 am »
Let me reiterate: Check out the Pendant and the Telepod thread http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,5156.0.html

That thread discusses the curious nature of the pendant and its ability to move on its own will (specifically in the context of it being dropped when Marle first travels back in time, but much of it relates to this discussion as well). Of particular note is the pendants ability to move on its own.

However, that the sparkle seems to be the pendant is fairly clear from the dialogue:

Quote
ELDER: Oh, this must be yours.

Marle: My... pendant.
   The one Crono held for me.


Lucca: Marle's pendant...
   ...the one that Crono kept for her.

Robo: The pendant from
   Crono's pocket.
   It's Marle's, right?

Frog: 'Tis the pendant Crono
   kept.


Ayla: Look!
   Pendant that Crono had!

The entire party clearly identifies the pendant as having previously been held by Crono. Now, we have what could be a conundrum; Crono was vaporized by Lavos, so how could anything he be holding have survived? Well, we do see a single object depart Crono before he gets vaporized. Might this single item that escaped vaporization be the single surviving item of Crono's that the party finds (aka, the pendant)?

Also, while I could be wrong, isn't the pendant usually represented as a sparkle whenever Schala uses it? And as FouCaptain pointed out, it is just a sparkle when it reacts with the telepod. It being naught but a sparkle is not inconsistent.

mav

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #28 on: March 17, 2009, 03:18:51 pm »
I agree Thought: we see Crono completely vaporized, save for that sparkle that departed from him; it appears on the floor in the following scene and the party clearly refers to the pendant as being kept/held by Crono. And do you have to have Crono in your party until then? Perhaps it's game-play mechanics, but couldn't that be the reason that the party left it to him? Marle et all could be in the End of Time, while Crono had to be with the traveling party during their quests and basically the entire game. No one else was always in the party, and an item as crucial as the pendant would have to be held by the traveling party at all times.
« Last Edit: March 18, 2009, 12:06:17 pm by mav »

TheSwordsFrog

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Re: The Sparkle in Crono's Death Scene...
« Reply #29 on: March 17, 2009, 07:48:11 pm »
hi!I think it is the pendant that simply floats on its own.the sparkling isn't strange at all because we do know it has some kind of mystical power,so...