Dimension Split, or Dimension Duplication

[Acacia Sgt]

But there wasn't a connection between the Frozen Flame and Miguel until FATE placed him as it's guardian, to imply a reason for him to survive.

[chrono eric]

Also, you have to take into account the perspective of the individual who is giving this information. To Miguel, he lived first in Chronopolis and then in the Dead Sea. From the perspective of someone inside the Sea of Eden, it is possible that Miguel might think he is still in the same dimension when in fact he has been sent to another one.

But I agree, the Cross script is ambiguous here. But Acacia Sgt's explanation is the best one we've got. Either that or we have to go with "FATE killed Miguel in Chronopolis after many years of keeping him alive for no apparent reason". Which one makes more sense?

[killercactus]

OK, great.  So, if we assume the Miguel we meet is actually from Another World....

The Dead Sea in Home World could've came into existence in 12000 BC, without Miguel always remembering it.  In Home World, when Serge survives, the Dead Sea is created.  If it comes into existence in 12000 BC (when Chronopolis is introduced via the Time Crash), and Miguel comes to Home World only once it appears, he would remember 4 years in Chronopolis (Another World) and 10 years in the Dead Sea (Home World).  That pretty neatly gets around that issue, which we were discussing in the other thread, and the 10 year issue with Kid traveling back in time since Miguel wouldn't have come to Home World until after that happened.

A little more support for the "H" idea I guess.

[chrono eric]

Yes, that is a very real possibility that I admittedly never even thought of before. But first, before we accept it as a possibility, we have to go through the script of Cross to see if there is any other mention of the Sea of Eden transforming into the Dead Sea in 1010 AD besides Miguel.

If Miguel is the only person who states this information, then he is potentially biased. But if there were others, then it would invalidate the 12,000 BC theory. And I seem to remember that the demi-human mayor (or whatever) in Marbule said something about the Sea of Eden transforming into the Dead Sea as if he remembered it doing so. I will look in the script to find it.

EDIT: Well, a computer in Chronopolis says this:

  However...
   Ever since the formation of
   the Dead Sea 10 years ago... 
   FATE has been unable to intervene
   directly with World 01.
   The best FATE could do was cross
   the dimension and receive data
   through the Records of Fate.
   And with much difficulty, FATE
   succeeded in binding Miguel
   to the Dead Sea as a watchman...

Which would seem to imply that the Dead Sea did not exist in Home World until 10 years ago. It also implies that FATE sent Another Miguel to the Dead Sea as a watchman as well.

And I cannot find another other place in the script that references the time that the Dead Sea was created. So, what do you think?

[Acacia Sgt]

Back then, that place
wasn't called
the Dead Sea...
Yes, I believe they called it
the '"Sea of Eden"'...
That was 14 years ago.

Happening in 1,010: Yes.

[chrono eric]

Damn how did I miss that? I searched the entire script that Zeality has on Gamefaqs! That is the final nail in the coffin then. That settles it, the Dead Sea did not appear any time before 1010 AD. Good job Acacia Sgt.

EDIT: I guess either my attention sucks or the "Find" search function skips entire phrases, because I just found this:

Radius:
   That ocean was called
   the Sea of Eden until
   3 years ago...
   This may just be the
   clue we were looking for.
   Once we uncover Lynx's plans,
   it should be easy enough to
   counter them.

Which is enormously confusing, as it seems to suggests a formation of the Dead Sea in 1017 AD. Unless, of course, people only started calling it the Dead Sea in 1017 AD.

[Acacia Sgt]

Since it's at the time the Dragoons disappeared, then the name change could be based on that.

[killercactus]

OK - so if Serge's mom remembers the Sea of Eden, then the Dead Sea only materialized in 1010 AD.  Solves that for me.

Also, I think my theory about Chronopolis being locked out of the Flame in 12000 BC is pretty much dead too.  I would think, without the Flame, they couldn't beat Dinopolis in a war, but yet they do.

I agree with Acacia Sgt. about the Dragoon disappearance - could very well match the timing of the name.

However, there is still hope for Home and Another having different pasts.  The poet girl in Arni is highly mysterious.

[chrono eric]

Where is utunnels when we need him? The only way to settle the Arni girl thing is to look at the Japanese script. And even if it is the same, it may still be erroneous. It just doesn't make sense with what the rest of the story says.

[utunnels]

Hmm, I don't think they are different.
It is a quite honest translation.

[chrono eric]

Heh, that was a pretty fast response utunnels. Were you just happening to cruise the Time and dimensions forum at the exact time I posted that?

Then we are left with a decision. The script is usually considered canon, but we have to take into account the source of the information. The source of this information is Chronopolis, which is perhaps the best source in the story. But the information flies against what the rest of the story implies. So, do we discard it? Or do we try to explain it somehow?

[utunnels]

I checked that long time ago.
Although I didn't reply this topic until I saw your post.

Hmm, no , I don't think it was this topic.. LOL
There are multiple topics that are talking about the same thing, I'm confused. LOL

[chrono eric]

Yeah, this thread and the Frozen Flame thread might as well be one and the same since we are talking about exactly the same thing in both threads now. Whoops. Oh well, they started differently anyhow.

[killercactus]

Yeah - I feel like I keep going back to each thread and posting the same response.

I think we have to assume that the poet was instructed by FATE after 1010, but before Kid goes back in time.  Because in Home World in the game, she doesn't seem to have gotten the instruction.

[Thought]

That's easy. Home Miguel died when the Dead Sea was created. And Another Miguel was sent there by FATE to guard that dimension's Frozen Flame.

Other way around. I am fairly sure that Kato said in an interview that FATE killed Miguel in another world...

Here we go:

Question: What could be the reason that Miguel was stuck in the Dead Sea? And, were there two of him in existence?

Answer: 14 years ago when he entered the Sea of Eden, he was bewitched. By the knowledge of the future, by the powers of FATE. Perhaps he was overwhelmed in the sea of information, perhaps he became one with Chronopolis. When the world separated into two, of course, there were two of him. The one who was in Chronopolis, was eliminated by FATE, I'm afraid.

As taken from this interview: http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Ultimania_Interview.html