Author Topic: Where did the Mystics come from?  (Read 18054 times)

utunnels

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #90 on: February 08, 2009, 01:47:22 am »
OK, I think I fixed it.

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Term/Masamune.html
The sword is not always red, neither is Marle's pendant.
So I was surprised when I heard it was made from red stone(dreamstone).
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 01:49:04 am by utunnels »

ZealKnight

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #91 on: February 08, 2009, 11:56:47 am »
Dream creatures give it a dream form?

mav

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #92 on: February 08, 2009, 12:58:34 pm »
I'm not sure I follow, what do you mean by dream creatures give it a dream form? Do you mean the physical appearance of these objects doesn't necessarily match the color of the stone it was created from, due to the dream creatures' influence on the object? So the Masamune doesn't appear red in CT due to Masa and Mune's influence on the sword itself?
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 01:03:05 pm by mav »

ZealKnight

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #93 on: February 08, 2009, 04:59:27 pm »
Yeah, basically. That's the best I can come up with for a reason.

Zergplex

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #94 on: February 08, 2009, 06:08:52 pm »
It could be the processing of the Dreamstone that is necessary to use forge special items such as these (which Melchior mentions when repairing the Masamune) changes the color of the stone as well as it's physical properties. It would make the most sense as I doubt anyone would guess the pendant and the masamune were formed from the same material visually.

ZealKnight

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #95 on: February 08, 2009, 06:18:43 pm »
What about the Red Knife?

Zephira

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #96 on: February 08, 2009, 10:48:54 pm »
That would be its own discussion thread, wouldn't it?
The Red Knife was made for one purpose, really; that being the destruction of the Mammon Machine. Maybe the Dreamstone was processed a certain way, retaining most of its natural properties, so that it could absorb energy from the Mammon Machine. But the Knife couldn't destroy the Mammon Machine on its own, it absorbed too much energy and turned into some other metal. When Melchior and Lucca repair the Masamune in 600 AD, they get 'fresh' Dreamstone and infuse it with more magic, imitating the process of Knife + Mammon Machine. Just a guess, but that's how I always thought it happened.

Thought

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #97 on: February 09, 2009, 12:02:27 pm »
Hmm, no.
I mean, the pendant is blue...
Although, the Masamune is not red in CT either.

Ah, sorry, I totally missed that. It is quite strange. I think Zergplex is on the right path: perhaps it is sort of like iron in that regard. Unprocessed dreamstone is red due to a chemical reaction in the environment (akin to raw iron ore usually being in the form of iron oxide, which is redish orange), but that reaction must be undone to make it a workable mineral (which, as a total side note, is what made iron processing a defining moment in real-world civilizations). There is some small hint at this in that the Dreamstone has to be "processed" before Melchior can use it to repair the Masamune, again as Zergplex mentioned, so the idea isn't without any ingame support.


ZealKnight, the issue of the Ruby/Red knife and the Masamune is a curious one. Was it thrust into the Mammon Machine in the original timeline? We don't see it, and the few scenes we do see don't seem to indicate it, but it is a strange matter nonetheless. It is a relevant question since if Lavos energy is responsible for the color change, the Masamune would have needed to have been thrust into the machine (or likewise exposed) in both timelines.

Notably, the Mammon Machine is itself built from Dreamstone (at least in part) and is first largely a warm color (tanish/brownish red) and then a cool color (greyish blue). This might support the idea that Lavos' energy effects the color of dreamstone (though there would seem to be a specific level of energy necessary for the change, or a certain concentration). Course, the machine is blue after the party has been thrown into it, which is itself a strange set of circumstances and might negate any significance.

utunnels

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #98 on: February 10, 2009, 06:11:44 am »
Back to topic.
I'm a bit confused. What are the differences between "monster" and "mystic"?
To be honest, before I saw those discussions, I always treated mystic as monster.
You know we call villains in RPGs "monsters", that's just a habbit.

I checked the retranslation script, something is ineresting.

Quote from: NA script
[Soldier]
   Long ago, a beast called Yakra lurked in
   the western forest. But after the
   cathedral was built, Yakra disappeared.
   We're thankful for that.

Quote from: Retranslation
[Soldier]
   A monster called Yakra used to live in the forest
   region to the west, and no one would go near it.

   But since the abbey was built in that forest a little
   while back, the monster stopped appearing.
   That's divine godly protection for you. It's a
   welcome thing.

Quote from: JPN script
[Soldier]
昔、西の森あたりは、ヤクラという魔物
住んでいて、誰も近寄らなかったんだ。

だが少し前、その森の中に
修道院がたてられてからは
魔物も出なくなったのだ。
さすが神のごかご。 ありがたい事だ。

So 魔物 is so called "mystic" or "fiend". The retranslation also treates it as "monster".


Another example:

Quote from: Retranslation
[Young Woman]
   Some monsters live with and get on well with
   humans. That piano player, for example.

Quote from: JPN script
[Young Woman]
なかよく人とくらすモンスターもいるの。
あのピアノひきさんとかね。
モンスター = monster

Example again:

Quote from: Retranslation
Real Chancellor: Phew, I'm saved!
   That damn monster, shutting me up
   in a place like that......!

Quote
本物の大臣「ふーっ、助かったわい!
   あの化け物め、あんなとこに
   おしこめおってからに……!

化け物 is translated as monster here. It is original meaning is "shape taking thing". Because in oriental legends, "monsters" are usually beasts who obtain magic abilities, they usually take shapes of a human or in half-human half-beast forms.


Quote from: NA script
[Young Woman]
   A beast was posing as the Chancellor?
   Well, the fake one had much better
   taste.

Quote from: JPN script
[Young Woman]
魔物が大臣様に化けてたなんて……
もっともニセモノの方が品はよかったけど。

Quote from: Retranslation
[Young Woman]
   A monster turning into the chancellor......
   The fake was better quality, though.

You see the usage of "monster" and "mystic/fiend" is mixed up, sometimes I just can't tell whether they are different things.

« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 06:17:13 am by utunnels »

Thought

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #99 on: February 10, 2009, 11:25:16 am »
A very good point, uTunnels. Perhaps mystics are only monsters capable of establishing a civilization.

utunnels

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #100 on: February 10, 2009, 11:31:28 am »
Yeah, in Woolsey's script, it is certain that 魔族(fiend clan, fiend tribe) is translated as Mystics, it is usually used by Mystics themselves. 魔物(fiend/demon) is used by human, and it is translated as monster or beast.

-------
Edit*
Sorry, spelt Woolsey's name wrongly.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 12:25:53 pm by utunnels »

Thought

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #101 on: February 10, 2009, 12:25:10 pm »
Slightly amusing that Azala associates early humans with “apes” (aka, beasts), and 600ad humans associates Mystics with “beasts” as well.

ZealKnight

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #102 on: February 10, 2009, 05:38:44 pm »
Well if were going to be specific to translations, then you have a problem. Mystic=Demon. I say this because the examples you gave were more of derogatory descriptions rather than a name.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 05:40:53 pm by ZealKnight »

utunnels

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #103 on: February 11, 2009, 12:46:57 am »
Yeah, it is hard to make a word to word translation, either demon or fiend is a derogatory name. Maybe that's why Woolsey used Mystic.
But you see in Magus's castle there are various types of monsters, including undead and beasts. That still make me wonder Mystics are a monster civilization.

BTW, speaking "demon", I think Magus, Ozzie and Slash(not sure about Flea) fit the name perfectly. I'm not familiar with DragonBalls series, but they really look like a certain tribe(I don't know the name, sorry) in it.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 12:51:56 am by utunnels »

FouCapitan

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Re: Where did the Mystics come from?
« Reply #104 on: February 11, 2009, 03:00:06 am »
Yeah, it is hard to make a word to word translation, either demon or fiend is a derogatory name. Maybe that's why Woolsey used Mystic.
But you see in Magus's castle there are various types of monsters, including undead and beasts. That still make me wonder Mystics are a monster civilization.

BTW, speaking "demon", I think Magus, Ozzie and Slash(not sure about Flea) fit the name perfectly. I'm not familiar with DragonBalls series, but they really look like a certain tribe(I don't know the name, sorry) in it.
You mean Piccolo Daimao's demon clan?