Author Topic: Hey, I just had a CRAZY idea.  (Read 1079 times)

6502x86

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Hey, I just had a CRAZY idea.
« on: January 25, 2009, 05:29:01 am »
Chrono Trigger, ported to the Kingdom Hearts 2 engine. What do you think? This would probably be impossible until PS2 emulation matures to somewhere around the PSX level, so I'm starting this topic to discuss the concept, not the real thing.

MDenham

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Re: Hey, I just had a CRAZY idea.
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2009, 05:47:28 am »
Chrono Trigger, ported to the Kingdom Hearts 2 engine. What do you think? This would probably be impossible until PS2 emulation matures to somewhere around the PSX level, so I'm starting this topic to discuss the concept, not the real thing.
:picardno

PS2 emulation is in a state where this would be possible (that is, it runs things for the most part; speed is rarely an issue for this).  That's not the issue, though; the issue would be reverse-engineering the KH2 engine, which...

...well, take a look at the current state of reverse-engineering Chrono Cross.  We've been at it for something over two years now, and have maybe half of what we'd need to do a wholesale replacement of things to implement a different game in it figured out.

KH2 (or even KH1) would probably take twice as long to reach the point we're currently at - so "CT on KH2" is probably an 8-10 year project.

While I like the idea, I'm not a fan of the timeframe, and shortening that timeframe would require throwing a lot more people who are capable of following code, reversing compression schemes, weaseling out the minutiae of data structures as written to disc, etc.

A good first step on this would be when KH:358/2 comes out, though - there'll be some commonalities of code between that and earlier KH games, and DS games are a fair amount easier to pull apart the metaphorical code innards on.

Jutty

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Re: Hey, I just had a CRAZY idea.
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2009, 07:11:13 am »
Chrono Trigger, ported to the Kingdom Hearts 2 engine. What do you think? This would probably be impossible until PS2 emulation matures to somewhere around the PSX level, so I'm starting this topic to discuss the concept, not the real thing.

Sure thing grab the source code and we'll get to work.

teaflower

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Re: Hey, I just had a CRAZY idea.
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2009, 08:54:02 am »
It sounds brilliant, but again really hard to do. You may wish to start with a KH GBA or DS game. Those are apparently easier to pull apart. But if you get to messing with KH2, I will happily test it for you. I'm in the middle of a massive KH2 kick... and this is just what I needed.

utunnels

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Re: Hey, I just had a CRAZY idea.
« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2009, 08:58:29 am »
The problem is the engine is not opened. So you have to hack everything, and creating a game is not just replacing some graphics or sounds...
And I bet writing a new engine should be faster than that...

6502x86

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Re: Hey, I just had a CRAZY idea.
« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2009, 10:04:52 am »
Replying to everyone in one shot.





:picardno

PS2 emulation is in a state where this would be possible (that is, it runs things for the most part; speed is rarely an issue for this). 
I know PS2 emulation is quite advanced. Just not advanced enough, in my opinion, to be used reliably. It was underlined in a video that I saw on youtube about GS/PAR/CB codes for KH2. I'm sure anyone reading Kajar Labs knows exactly how they work, so I wont bother with the details. It should be sufficient to mention that a code to replace the playable character(from Sora to Riku) required different codesets for the emulator and the real machine.

That's not the issue, though; the issue would be reverse-engineering the KH2 engine, which...
Significant progress has already been made on reverse engineering KH2. This individual has managed to subvert the game's AI: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5bGlcMl5rs&feature=channel

...well, take a look at the current state of reverse-engineering Chrono Cross.  We've been at it for something over two years now, and have maybe half of what we'd need to do a wholesale replacement of things to implement a different game in it figured out.
In my experience, Hacking/Modding a game operates on a sort of bell curve. On one side, you've got SMB, Metroid, and other Famicom era games, on the other, you have stuff like KoToR, Freelancer, and others. Both sides are quite easy to penetrate and hack.  CC lies almost right in the middle, and CT is pretty close to the top itself, so you guys all deserve massive respect.

A good first step on this would be when KH:358/2 comes out, though - there'll be some commonalities of code between that and earlier KH games, and DS games are a fair amount easier to pull apart the metaphorical code innards on.
Sorry, but... No, there won't. The DS's internal architecture and the architecture of a PS2 are very different. KH: 358/2 Days will have more in common with other SE DS games, probably sharing a similar 3d engine at most.

Sure thing grab the source code and we'll get to work.
Sure! I'll just send you a pile of noncommented C from my decompiler! [/sarcasm]

Please something to forward the discourse, or not at all.

It sounds brilliant, but again really hard to do. You may wish to start with a KH GBA or DS game. Those are apparently easier to pull apart. But if you get to messing with KH2, I will happily test it for you. I'm in the middle of a massive KH2 kick... and this is just what I needed.

Heh, cool! If I figure out how to pop the .IMG format where I suspect most of the data is located at (A 3.7 GB file is just a little conspicuous.) I'll be sure to PM you.

The problem is the engine is not opened. So you have to hack everything, and creating a game is not just replacing some graphics or sounds...
And I bet writing a new engine should be faster than that...

What I meant was CT, under most of the KH2 system. It still involves more than as you put it "graphicks or sounds" but it not impossible. Specifically, it would involve replacing some graphics and sounds, cracking the models and animations, making a soundtrack, and changing some of the executable code to allow anyone to be at the front of your party. Physical techs could be Abilities, magic would replace the LIMIT menu, and not eat the entire MP bar. I'm not crazy, and I'm not talking about doing something like implementing ATBv2 under the KH2's engine.

Oh, and also: NO, IT ISN'T. Easier to write a new engine, that is. I can speak from personal experience that writing a game engine is harder than modding an existing one, because guess what? I'm already writing a video game engine. In 2D. And it's harder then anything I've ever attempted before.

MDenham

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Re: Hey, I just had a CRAZY idea.
« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2009, 10:21:49 am »
A good first step on this would be when KH:358/2 comes out, though - there'll be some commonalities of code between that and earlier KH games, and DS games are a fair amount easier to pull apart the metaphorical code innards on.
Sorry, but... No, there won't. The DS's internal architecture and the architecture of a PS2 are very different. KH: 358/2 Days will have more in common with other SE DS games, probably sharing a similar 3d engine at most.
I'm referring less to I/O-related matters (which will obviously be different) and more to the C code you'd get from reverse-compiling both games.  It'd make more sense for game mechanics to be roughly the same (with tweaking to eliminate bugs that get noticed after release) and thereby use the same, or similar, code, than to rewrite the game mechanics over again.  (KH:CoM would be another matter entirely; but 358/2 seems to be similar in game mechanics to KH1 and 2 from what's presently known.  Likewise, KH:Birth By Sleep is also likely to have similar game-mechanics code.)

HyperNerd

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Re: Hey, I just had a CRAZY idea.
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2009, 01:20:40 am »
Yeah, I'll help and test, The Kingdom Hearts series is a long time favorite of mine.