Dalton (Post-DS Revision) [DS Spoilers Included]

[V_Translanka]

The way I see it, the only person who would replace the Masamune on Denadoro would be *drum roll*...Crono! Thus, though the Fall of Guardia occurs, I think that either 1) Crono is the one who gets the sword (or gets it from a soldier of Guardia or something) or 2) Crono defeats Dalton at some point afterwards for the sword.

[mav]

To expand on that, it'd only make sense if the person who moved the Masamune was someone who knew Denadoro's relation to the sword. And, unless the information was passed down generation to generation, I too would expect Crono to be one of the few that was both knowing enough and capable enough to move the blade--it just doesn't make sense for Dalton or some random Porrean to move the blade, unless they knew the mythology and history of it.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Thing is, what happens to Crono after he gets it to the place Radius and Garai find it at, then?

[mav]

Good question, but sadly we can only speculate at this point...hell, Crono being alive is speculation as well. I think it's believable that he survived (or fled) the Fall of Guardia and hid the blade away, but we don't even know how true that is. Assuming he fled during the Fall, he wouldn't really be able to show his face around there--he'd probably have to hideout for a while and try to reestablish himself, and this wouldn't necessarily be out of cowardice: Crono (among others) could have disappeared during the Fall after fleeing for his life, and to keep himself (and possibly those others) safe he'd have to remain hidden.

And for the record, it's unclear where Radius and Garai found the blade. Some contend it was the Divine Dragoon Falls, others assume it was somewhere on Zenan. So it's possible that after the blade was moved to Denadoro, it was moved again at least once. Which kind of makes me think the person who took the sword during the Fall of Guardia was actually hiding it, and moved it again once he needed it again...

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Hell, for all we know, someone may have taken it between it being placed wherever and it being found by Radius and Garai, and when they were done, it was placed at Divine Dragon Falls for Radius and Garai to find later, which explains why it was shown being found at Divine Dragon Falls.

[Acacia Sgt]

Hell, for all we know, someone may have taken it between it being placed wherever and it being found by Radius and Garai, and when they were done, it was placed at Divine Dragon Falls for Radius and Garai to find later, which explains why it was shown being found at Divine Dragon Falls.

Are you sure?

   But that was a good
   fifteen years ago...
   When Garai lost his life on
   the central continent, I vowed
   to become his sons' guardian.
   I officially retired four years
   ago, after Dario received his
   father's sword, the Einlanzer.
   I have been here ever since,
   living a carefree life away
   from the rest of the world.

Clearly, that tells it's somewhere near, or in, Denadoro.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Then SE fucked up in the location. I was merely speculating.

[mav]

Oh, I should have mentioned, the reason many believe it's Divine Dragoon Falls is because that's what it looked like. The exact location is still unclear.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

That's what I was saying. They fucked up in doing that since many would assume it was indeed Divine Dragon Falls.

[Acacia Sgt]

That's the sort of things that happen to save time, space, or effort. Whatever the reason was.

[Shadow D. Darkman]

Still fucked up.

[Zergplex]

Dalton is alive, no doubt about it. He was pretty weak when fought in Zeal but by the time of the Dimensional Vortices he is truly a force to be reckoned with. He became even more powerful than Magus, who was once slaughtering Guardia with just his minions. It would be pretty anticlimatic if he died off-screen after conquering Guardia and (possibly) killing Crono and Marle. Bottom line is, we need answers.

I wouldn't say 'no doubt about it' in this situation. All we have is doubt right now. I think listing what facts we actually know from both games about the rise of Porre and the Downfall of Guardia might help with these questions.

Facts we know:
(1) Dalton, through a dimensional abnormality, arrives in 1000AD. He aids/manupulates Porre into a war with Guardia.
(2) The Kingdom of Guardia is defeated and razed by Porre. The Masamune is lost during the battle.
(3) The Masamune is not retained by Porre and is returned to the Denadoro Mountains (while there is evidence for their placement in Divine Dragon Falls it seems more likely given quotes about the mainland that it returned to Denadoro Mountains).
(4) Porre is still a major power in the world during Chrono Cross.
(5) Guardia does rebound at some point and rebuild, retaining it's sovereign status though it's size and military strength are unknown.

Things we don't know:
(1) The status of Dalton. Whether he survived the war, still runs Porre with an iron fist, or opened a small bake shop in Medina (mmmmm cake). We know nothing about this man. It would be anticlimactic for him to have died, but the suspicious lack of information about him in Chrono Cross is strange considering he was never a subtle man at any point we had seen him.
(2) The status of Crono and Marle. As much as pro-Dalton fans might brush them aside, we do not know what role they played during the fall at all. They might be living, dead, or unliving. I feel it is likely that one of them regained the Masamune from Porre and returned it to Denadoro Mountains, though that is only speculation (and that role could also be filled by Lucca who we know was still alive at that point).

What other facts do we know at this point? Really anything regarding Dalton or Crono/Marle right now is speculation based on personal opinions. If we focus on understanding the information on Porre given in Chrono Cross we might be able to find clues to some of our unknown questions.

On a personal note I would say the death of Crono and Marle offscreen would be even more anticlimactic then Dalton, as they were stars of the previous game and their deaths would definitely carry weight. I feel that with no proof that Chrono, Marle, OR Dalton are dead then we can safety assume all 3 survived the war.

[Magus22]

I knew it... after all these years of speculation.

My Chrono Break idea is playing out exactly how I planned. It is as if SE stole it. Dalton had to have another advantage, another card up his sleeve before attacking Guardia. It had to have been something important and of great signifiance that made it possible to overcome Crono and Marle at the throne. This does not mean the 2 of them were finished during the battle. Obviously, the Masamune was there, or the last wielder of the Masamune protecting the kingdom. He lost, and perhaps that was the advantage that gave Dalton the upper hand.

EDIT: Then there is the Hero Medal (Badge). It is a shame that Pierre's is not the same as Glenn's. With random speculation do I say that Dalton could have taken both from the last wielder and altered them using his arcane arts. Since the Masamune did end up in El Nido along with some child running around with the Hero Medal in Termina... wouldn't it be something if he had encountered Kid, battled her, lost due to Schala's Pendant, and the equipment scattered? (damn... now that I think about it, that is not possible since Garai and Radius found the Masamune atop the Divine Dragon Falls... DAMN!)

[mav]

I think we're playing the importance of the Masamune a little too high. It's a sword, albeit a strong one, so even if a cruel-intentioned man wields it in a war, it wouldn't give him the ability to kill hordes of men at a time--he's still subject to being ransacked and killed. Furthermore the Hero Medal would only increase the likelihood of a critical hit...you could say it just invigorates the wearer to be a little more pugnacious. Having these two items wouldn't give such a massive upper-hand...unless there was some kind of sentimental attachment to them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's the skill of the swordsman, not the sword, that would ultimately give the wielder more victories. It's not a game of "whoever has the Masamune wins".

[FaustWolf]

Hold on Magus22!

It is a shame that Pierre's is not the same as Glenn's.

This appears to have been a concept art flub, IMO at least. Closer analysis of Pierre's model shows that the hero medals are identical. Whether Pierre holds THE hero medal from CT is still up for debate I suppose (it could have been a cheap knockoff perhaps), but they are identical in appearance. The topic was broached by Satoh earlier.

...now that I think about it, that is not possible since Garai and Radius found the Masamune atop the Divine Dragon Falls...

It's possible it could have been in the Denadoro Mountains but the Divine Dragon Falls background was recycled for that scene, or at least that's what the official Compendium position is IIRC.