A single Gate's ability to send multiple people to different times?

[FaustWolf]

tushantin noted elsewhere that during the version of the Ocean Palace event at which Crono & co. attended, Melchior and Janus were seen being dragged into the same Gate.

The English lines read thus:

ELDER: When the disaster struck, an
   eerie, black portal materialized.
   Melchior tried to save Janus, but he
   was also dragged in.

The Japanese lines read thus:

Elder: At the time of the great disaster,
   something like a black distortion appeared......
   Bosch, trying to save Jyaki-sama, who was
   about to be sucked in, was also.....

The Japanese version is slightly ambiguous -- it doesn't say whether Melchior was dragged into the same gate as Janus, but the intimation is still there that Melchior tried to catch Janus' sleeve as it were, and got sucked into the same portal. Only one black Gate is mentioned in both versions.

We have something of a conundrum here. Either it is possible that a single Gate can send multiple people to different points along a time axis, or little Janus is hiding in a closet somewhere in Melchior's house in 1000AD.

However, the former must be true by virtue of the fact that people still mention Magus in 600AD, and Slash/Flea/Ozzie still remember Magus as if nothing played out differently.

[Vehek]

This is considered the basis of Time Bastard, isn't it? Melchior and Janus still ending in the right times is from TTI.

[ZeaLitY]

Yeah. The Black Gate merely takes them to the Darkness Beyond Time.

[tushantin]

But that still doesn't explain the latter transportation and effect on the timeline and dimension. Regardless, the timeline of Crono & co interruption at the Ocean Palace was not a discarded timeline. However, Magus still remembers his version of the past where Melchoir and him were pulled in through seperate gates.

We're not really dealing with a Time Paradox as much. Maybe, but it's still.... buggy.

In any case, the timeline would be altered, even if it's a minor thing, and it is because of Crono's and Prophet's interruption that the Black Omen appeared.

[ZeaLitY]

As soon as the Prophet stepped foot in 12000 B.C., the timeline was fundamentally altered.

[tushantin]

As soon as the Prophet stepped foot in 12000 B.C., the timeline was fundamentally altered.

Indeed. And that would mean that the new timeline may or may not have Magus at 600 AD. But if Melchoir was sent elsewhere, then Janus must have been transported there?

Ah, nevermind, I'm probably thinking too much.

[Vehek]

Do you understand Time Traveler's Immunity and Time Bastard?

[tushantin]

I wasn't really thinking about our version of Time Traveler's Immunity and Time Bastard, but was rather referring to CT and CC's version of Time and Dimension traveling. But regardless, nevermind...

[Eske]

Magus recalls the incident (as it originally happened) and we see them being dragged into separate gates.  A villager recalls the incident as it happened this time around, and mentions them being dragged into the same gate.

Since Crono and Co. changed history, the timeline is rewritten and Melchoir wouldn't be protected by TTI.  But Magus is protected because hes outside of the rewritten timeline. In other words, Magus remembers the incident as he describes it and Melchoir when you first meet him in the game would as well.  But now Melchoir will remember the incident as the villager describes it.  The gate must have sent them to different times, much like the gate in Magus's Castle sent 3 to 65,000,000BC and 1 to 12,000BC.

[FaustWolf]

Oh snaaaap, I hadn't even thought about the Gate at Magus' castle, there's an even more concrete example. I suppose the Entity can send people wherever it likes on a whim, even snatching people from Lavos' Gates and spreading them out if necessary.

[Xenterex]

Well, there may be a difference in the nature of how these black gates work, since they are temporary anomalies, or certainly at least not sustained as the other gates that are used as set gateways between two time periods.   Perhaps all of these holes are just different entrances to the same 'gate', in which case 4 (Or more) people have entered into it, and thus they would end up at the End of Time.  From there, each person may have simply just wandered (separate from each other) the area and into the first exit point they found,  save Gaspar would 'stayed' put.  The same thing may have happened at the gate that was formed in Magus' castle. Course, rather than simply wandering, perhaps Gaspar then could've pushed each person into the corresponding gate path.

[Acacia Sgt]

Magus recalls the incident (as it originally happened) and we see them being dragged into separate gates.  A villager recalls the incident as it happened this time around, and mentions them being dragged into the same gate.

Since Crono and Co. changed history, the timeline is rewritten and Melchoir wouldn't be protected by TTI.  But Magus is protected because hes outside of the rewritten timeline. In other words, Magus remembers the incident as he describes it and Melchoir when you first meet him in the game would as well.  But now Melchoir will remember the incident as the villager describes it.  The gate must have sent them to different times, much like the gate in Magus's Castle sent 3 to 65,000,000BC and 1 to 12,000BC.

Actually, that gate would be Time Bastard in action, since in these new events, they weren't in the palace to be dragged into the gates that will sent them to the corresponding eras. I'm sure wherever Belthasar and Gaspar were hiding while all that happened, they too were dragged into black gates like the former two.

Melchior back in 1,000 A.D. will still not know of these new events since he too is like Magus, he only knows about the original events. All four time traveled when it originally happened, meaning they will always appear in those years (except Gaspar by being sent to the EoT will only be once) no matter what future changes are done.

[Eske]

Magus recalls the incident (as it originally happened) and we see them being dragged into separate gates.  A villager recalls the incident as it happened this time around, and mentions them being dragged into the same gate.

Since Crono and Co. changed history, the timeline is rewritten and Melchoir wouldn't be protected by TTI.  But Magus is protected because hes outside of the rewritten timeline. In other words, Magus remembers the incident as he describes it and Melchoir when you first meet him in the game would as well.  But now Melchoir will remember the incident as the villager describes it.  The gate must have sent them to different times, much like the gate in Magus's Castle sent 3 to 65,000,000BC and 1 to 12,000BC.

Actually, that gate would be Time Bastard in action, since in these new events, they weren't in the palace to be dragged into the gates that will sent them to the corresponding eras. I'm sure wherever Belthasar and Gaspar were hiding while all that happened, they too were dragged into black gates like the former two.

Melchior back in 1,000 A.D. will still not know of these new events since he too is like Magus, he only knows about the original events. All four time traveled when it originally happened, meaning they will always appear in those years (except Gaspar by being sent to the EoT will only be once) no matter what future changes are done.

I see the Compendium states that Janus and the gurus were sent to the DBT at the same time their counterparts time travelled. Time Bastard saves the series from the duplicate problem and such but I see a problem:  If Crono and Co. change history so that person X no longer has the opportunity to time travel, why is Person X's time travel preserved?  Lets say that Crono meets Joe in 1100AD and learns that Joe will be sucked into a black gate in his kitchen 1002AD June 1st  8:00pm.   So, Crono goes and finds Joe at 7:55pm outside his house and starts a conversation to stall entrance into the kitchen.  By what I'm reading here you guys are saying that at 8:00pm Joe will vanish in front of Crono because a counterpart who time travelled on a timeline that was sent to the DBT did so at 8:00pm? 

Crono A remembers Joe from 1100AD because his experiences are protected by TTI.  His counterpart who until now has done everything the same way as Crono will reach 1100AD and not find Joe.  Whenever Crono A time travelled to 990AD from 1100AD is when Crono B will go the the DBT.   All I see is a perspective issue. 

Crono A is preserved because he is outside of the affected timeline.  He is what changes the future.
Crono B is not preserved and is sent to the DBT because he is inside the affected timeline.  He is the future that is changed.
Joe A is NOT preserved because he is inside the the affected timeline. He is the future that is changed.
Joe B IS preserved because he is not in the affected timeline.  He is what changes the future.

If Crono went back in time and threw a brick through Joe's window the day before Joe time travelled, would the new 1100AD Joe remember the incident?  Yes.   The old timeline was sent to the DBT  so that when Crono returns to Joe he will find that this version remembers the brick. 

Let's say Paul, a mischievous time traveller, met Crono and Marle in 1002AD.  Paul is also from 1000AD but started his time travelling adventures "after" (referring to Time Error, so Paul would see the new 2300AD if he chose to go there) Crono had saved the world. Then he went back to 1000AD and slipped Marle something in her morning coffee so that she could NOT go to the fair and meet Crono.  This means she can't time travel - but the Compendium holds that this drugged Marle will disappear the exact point of time that the original Marle time travelled, thus foiling Paul's plans.   

really guys? c'mon   

[Acacia Sgt]

While not entirely seeing your point, I do understand enough to answer you.

About X's time travel being preserved, it's because the way time travel works. When one time travels, he is exiting the time line to enter it again at the desired destination (at least that's what I think how it works). So, if X travels 10 years into the future, he is skipping 10 years of the continuity of time, at least, to the time line's perspective.

So, if the year of destination is 2008, then even if X of the new time line created by another time traveler can't time travel in 1998, the X who did travel will appear in 2008 of the new time line. The fact that they are both from different time lines makes it possible, they aren't the same individual, no matter how identical they are.

Same thing works for traveling to the past, X will still appear regardless of what happens to the new X in the future.

[Eske]

While not entirely seeing your point, I do understand enough to answer you.

About X's time travel being preserved, it's because the way time travel works. When one time travels, he is exiting the time line to enter it again at the desired destination (at least that's what I think how it works). So, if X travels 10 years into the future, he is skipping 10 years of the continuity of time, at least, to the time line's perspective.

So, if the year of destination is 2008, then even if X of the new time line created by another time traveler can't time travel in 1998, the X who did travel will appear in 2008 of the new time line. The fact that they are both from different time lines makes it possible, they aren't the same individual, no matter how identical they are.

Same thing works for traveling to the past, X will still appear regardless of what happens to the new X in the future.

lol sorry I do have a somewhat disjointed way of explaining things.  I completely understand what you are saying but I still see a problem.  Maybe I'm missing something easy but...

Okay this is what I believe the Compendium is saying in regards to Melchoir and the Ocean Palace incident:

Person A exists in Timeline X
Person A goes to Timeline X'
History changes
Person A now goes to Timeline X''
Person A' goes to DBT/ Timeline X' goes to DBT

Here is what I am saying:

Person A exists in Timeline X
Person A goes to Timeline X'
History changes
Person A' goes to Timeline X''
Person A goes to DBT/ Timeline X' goes to DBT

There is the problem:  Person A went to Timeline X'.   But that destination no longer exists.

I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that because the Chronoverse is 5D, changes in time happen in a separate, "real time" (Time Error right?). 
Person A can't travel to Timeline X' and X''.  Much like how Crono can't travel to the new and old 2300AD at the same time.
old 2300AD only exists until Crono defeats Lavos and new 2300AD won't exist until then.

I just think that Time Bastard doesn't need to be applied here.  Time is simply rewritten. No duplicates are created.