Author Topic: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?  (Read 12536 times)

Faust

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #15 on: November 23, 2008, 05:51:33 pm »
I agree with mav

Not only that, but look at the disconnected behavior lies between Guile's occupation as a mere magician and his naturally, and truly superb, magic abilities; it is as if he is completely ignorant of his own strength, ultimately his origin and his identity.

Which I believe is indicative of the new ending provided in CT DS.

radicalblues

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2008, 05:58:46 pm »
The Magus we know and love didn't, since Chrono Trigger / The Prophet hadn't happened yet. The Janus who does see him gets the Time Bastard shaft. So, if we'd been playing the game of Magus's life, we'd only have seen the original Ocean Palace incident.

This got me thinking... what if Future Magus is actually PAST Magus... from the Future? That Time Bastarded Janus that we saw in CT.
Even if you kill the Magus from CT, the Janus from CT would still be alive and appearing in the ending.

Dark Serge

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #17 on: November 23, 2008, 05:59:24 pm »
Didn't Janus see a future version of himself when he encountered the Prophet in Zeal? I figured it worked the same way here.

Indeed. Even if he didn't know it was himself, doesn't really matter. If that was possible, why isn't it possible that Magus in your party sees the man he will eventually become?

Because the Magus "in your party" might have already died at North Cape. I didn't play through the game yet but reports from various forums suggest that the Dream Devourer scene is the same whether you recruited Magus or killed him.

That's nonsense. Magus dieing at North Cape is non-canon. I also suggested in the past, that if you kill Magus on North Cape, then why would Lucca mention him the letter in CC, and if he by any WOULD be Guile, it would become impossible for Guile to exist.

radicalblues

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2008, 06:00:58 pm »
That's nonsense. Magus dieing at North Cape is non-canon. I also suggested in the past, that if you kill Magus on North Cape, then why would Lucca mention him the letter in CC, and if he by any WOULD be Guile, it would become impossible for Guile to exist.

It being canon or not is not the matter. The matter is consistency. Read one of my previous posts. The cats, Lara, Frog as human, Chrono Trigger always showed consistencies in endings.

Dark Serge

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2008, 06:07:25 pm »
That's nonsense. Magus dieing at North Cape is non-canon. I also suggested in the past, that if you kill Magus on North Cape, then why would Lucca mention him the letter in CC, and if he by any WOULD be Guile, it would become impossible for Guile to exist.

It being canon or not is not the matter. The matter is consistency. Read one of my previous posts. The cats, Lara, Frog as human, Chrono Trigger always showed consistencies in endings.

Yeah the problem here is that those cats don't have a shit to do with canon, while Magus living or dieing does. If that's the case, they should have made an option at the start of CC: "Did you kill Magus in CT or not?" If the player answers yes, Lucca will say they killed off Kid's dear sweet brother at North Cape cause he was such an ass, and Guile would never be in the game in the first place.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #20 on: November 23, 2008, 06:12:12 pm »
The Magus we know and love didn't, since Chrono Trigger / The Prophet hadn't happened yet. The Janus who does see him gets the Time Bastard shaft. So, if we'd been playing the game of Magus's life, we'd only have seen the original Ocean Palace incident.

This got me thinking... what if Future Magus is actually PAST Magus... from the Future? That Time Bastarded Janus that we saw in CT.
Even if you kill the Magus from CT, the Janus from CT would still be alive and appearing in the ending.

Any version of Janus will get get shunted to the Darkness Beyond Time once his personal age reaches the Time Error age of the original Janus / Magus and his time travels:

  • 12000 B.C. - Original Janus (who remembers the original Ocean Palace Incident) goes to 600 A.D.
  • 600 A.D. - Magus goes to 12000 B.C. after Crono intervenes with the summoning
  • Multiple - Magus travels with the party
  • 1000 A.D. - Magus goes to 12000 B.C. to search for Schala

If this Magus were to die, that'd be it. He's got multiple layers of Time Travel Immunity. There's no way to get a second Janus out of this except as a displaced traveler from another dimension, which would be separate from our beloved Magus.

Dark Serge

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2008, 06:15:33 pm »
Yeah well the guy in Time's Eclipse (or DBT whatever) doesn't have to be Janus, it could just be "party" Magus from the future. I still don't get how this would contradict anything if "party" Magus would see him there.

radicalblues

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2008, 06:23:50 pm »
Yeah the problem here is that those cats don't have a shit to do with canon, while Magus living or dieing does. If that's the case, they should have made an option at the start of CC: "Did you kill Magus in CT or not?" If the player answers yes, Lucca will say they killed off Kid's dear sweet brother at North Cape cause he was such an ass, and Guile would never be in the game in the first place.

You're not getting it. I know it's non canon, but CANON IS NOT IMPORTANT HERE.

It's how the game threats what happens in endings according to what you did in game.
- Magus being dead or alive (making Frog become human)
- The Epoch being destroyed or not
- Lara being able to walk or not
- The number of cats, etc

If shit that doesn't have to do with canon gets enough attention to be consistent from in-game to end-game content, big shit like Magus being alive or not should get MORE attention.

If Magus from your party dies, no matter what is canon and what not, if the Magus from the new ending was him, he wouldn't appear because he was already dead. Due to the way that CT manages its consistencies of events, EVEN NON CANON ONES, the Magus from the Time's Eclipse can't be the same one from your party.

So he's not the Magus from your party, he's either the Janus we saw in CT as I stated, or an alternate dimension Magus.



And speaking of canon, we're still not sure if the new ending is counting towards canon or not. I'll go with FaustWolf and say no for many reasons.

Dark Serge

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #23 on: November 23, 2008, 06:27:39 pm »
I guess you have a point there then. So we decided the Magus in DBT is not the Magus from your party. I wonder what he is then.

And exactly what are the arguments against this new ending not being canon?

ZeaLitY

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #24 on: November 23, 2008, 06:28:45 pm »
Yeah well the guy in Time's Eclipse (or DBT whatever) doesn't have to be Janus, it could just be "party" Magus from the future. I still don't get how this would contradict anything if "party" Magus would see him there.

Because it invokes determinism. From the perspective of the player, history is malleable and the future can be changed by your actions. But if you were to meet yourself from the future, fate exists. The ability to change history is Theme One of the Chrono series (it's the very premise of Chrono Trigger and it's explained by Lucca as the reason things can be called "Chrono Triggers"), so this is a titanic no-no. It just gets worse from there, challenging Time Bastard (which unhinges conservation of mass / energy / time) and messing with all other temporal internal logic.

Dark Serge

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2008, 06:34:36 pm »
Well we already know it's not "our" Magus because the gameplay mechanics doesn't want us to, but still

Ofc stuff can be changed from history to future, we see that countless times in CT. But "our" Magus could later go to the DBT, confronting Schala and the DD, and then he would see the past verion of himself coming in with Chrono & random other party guy that was dragged along. Why isn't that possible?

Sorry if I'm being dumb, I just don't understand these theories yet fully.

ZeaLitY

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2008, 06:42:36 pm »
It's possible if we're seeing the party through Future Magus's perspective. But the player's perspective is through the party.

Chrono'99

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2008, 06:44:11 pm »
Ofc stuff can be changed from history to future, we see that countless times in CT. But "our" Magus could later go to the DBT, confronting Schala and the DD, and then he would see the past verion of himself coming in with Chrono & random other party guy that was dragged along. Why isn't that possible?

Again, because Crono and party may have killed "our" Magus at North Cape. This and the quote from "Future" Magus about alternate dimensions strongly suggest that Future Magus is from an alternate dimension. When he says "We defeated Lavos", he probably refers to an alternate Crono party (from his dimension).

Dark Serge

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2008, 06:46:44 pm »
I know he is from another dimension, but just hypothetically speaking right now.

Say you don't get the option to kill Magus, he just joins you whether you like it or not. It would be possible right? In that case, they would go to DBT, Magus would see Future Magus and in reverse, and later Magus goes to the DBT and see Chrono, Past Magus, and another dude/dudette.

FaustWolf

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Re: Is Guile an amnesiac post-CTDS Magus?
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2008, 06:49:58 pm »
I apparently need a hot date with Time Bastard one of these days. Did I just write that? Must be the beer.

Anyway, we certainly know that this Magus, which I have termed "Future Magus," but perhaps should be labeled "Alternate Magus," is certainly different in personality from the Present Magus who has joined the party. This in itself provides some circumstantial evidence for the "Magus from an Alternate Universe" interpretation.


EDIT: You know what? In the SNES ending "Beyond Time", when Magus lives, Frog stays Frog, correct? And in the PSX version, Frog becomes human even if Magus lives, correct? These are separate potentialities, and thus may represent separate dimensions.

I posit that Future Magus came from the SNES Chrono Trigger. Or something. Does Frog remain Frog when Magus lives in CT:DS, or does Frog become human regardless?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 06:59:38 pm by FaustWolf »