Author Topic: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)  (Read 140226 times)

Jehmil

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #690 on: February 04, 2009, 11:46:29 pm »
Uhh... I dunno. Don't know what I was thinking last night. :picardno

utunnels

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #691 on: February 18, 2009, 01:09:06 am »
I'm pretty sure that in the Treasure description it says that Lucca "made it", but I may be wrong.

 [Lucca]
   That's the amulet Kid
   always had so dear to her
   heart!
   If you look carefully you'll
   see that the design on the
   cloth bag is the ancient
   kingdom's royal crest.
   Inside the bag is a
   wooden pendant.
   I assume my little sister
   had it with her, or picked
   it up later. on the night
   my house was razed.

   I bet she carefully kept
   it with her, always...
   I'm sure it has a lot of
   memories attatched to it!


Sorry to bring this up.
But it seems the JPN script "I assume my little sister had it with her" is not there. Lucca only assumed Kid picked it on that night when her house was razed.

It is unreasonable if Lucca didn't even know Kid had an amulet since she's Kid's foster mother...
So it is possible Lucca "made" it or received it from someone.


Here's the script if someone wants to have a look.
Quote
+---------------+
| text  a8h 168 |
+---------------+
それは、キッドが
大切にしてるお守りね。{delay 1e}
袋の模樣は、古代の紋章よ。{next page}
なかには、木でつくられた
ペンダントが入ってるゎ。{delay 1e}
私の家が襲ゎれた夜に、
ひろったらしいけど。{next page}
あの子、それをずっと、
大切に持ってたのね。{delay 1e}
きっと、いろんな想いが
こめられてるんだゎ。{end}



Or perhaps someone dropped it on that night.
Think the ending of Prophet's Guile...
« Last Edit: February 18, 2009, 12:23:27 pm by utunnels »

Thought

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #692 on: February 18, 2009, 03:47:32 pm »
Coming to the party late (I purposely waited because this topic was moving far too fast to follow before), I thought it might be pertinent to mention a few minor points.

Early in the thread (yes, I read it all. And never again) people wondered why TE Magus "gave up" regarding Schala. However, I would propose that by discarding his memories, Magus was acting in true Magus fashion. He's been told that as he is he can't free Schala. Because he is so dedicated and determined to save her, he does the unthinkable and steal's Crono's spotlight. Be becomes a Christ-Like figure and dies (well, discards his memories, which is close enough) so that he might have a chance of saving her. If he can't save her as he is, then he simply has to become something else. He's not giving up, he's following Schala's advice.

Also, Faust, since Magus throws away his memories, AE might need to be changed accordingly.


It has been suggested that the clones in the dimensional vortex are the Ghost Children. Well, I have another idea that is along those lines. If Schala erases the memories of Crono & Co, then perhaps those memories manifest as the Ghost Children (helps explain why they know so much about dimensions, events, and the TD).


Regarding Dalton, it seems that either Crono & Co didn't actually experience fighting him, canonically, or they discounted Dalton's claims. The reason for this is simple; Lucca's letter to Kid in CC. She is afraid that someone from a discarded timeline might attempt to get revenge. If she remembered the experience with Dalton, it would seem like her fears would have been focused in that direction. Or she might have discounted Dalton and instead worried about someone more competent getting revenge. Still, Lucca's Letter implies that canonically (at least, until CC canon changes), Lucca (and thus Crono and Marle) either don't remember Dalton's threat or didn't take it seriously.


And just since it was brought up, Dalton almost assuredly didn't use Elements in conquering Guardia. At the time FATE was still in control of El Nido and its stated goal was to minimize its impact on the rest of the world and time. Allowing elements outside of El Nido would have gone directly against that. However, Dalton already can use magic and is knowledgeable to an extent (remember, he was originally in charge of the Ocean Palace construction and apparently he was trusted enough to see the plans for the Epoch, as he recognizes it from Belthasar's designs).

While Dalton as a military genius is unlikely, I believe he might fit better as a political genius. He's put in charge of the Blackbird, he was in charge of the ocean palace, etc. That seems to indicate he has a mind for managing resources. Militarily... meh. Zeal was essentially at peace, and peace-time generals suck. You need someone forged in war to be a competent military commander.


And finally, regarding the Lost Sanctum; if we assume that time there is analogous to time in the main game, then it cannot be the Reptite/Dragonian dimension of CC fame. This is for a very simple reason; in 600AD the inhabitants of the Lost Sanctum are still Reptites, but if it is the Dragonian dimension, they should have been dragonians (and they should have been highly advanced, approaching Dragonopolis standards).

Though, to be fair, there might not actually be a difference between Reptites and Dragonians. Utunnels discovered that there is no consistent naming methodology in the game (Reptites and Dragonians appear to be closer to Reptile-Men and Dragon-Men, the same sort of nomenclature applied to mystics and other things).

The Black Wind

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #693 on: February 18, 2009, 06:40:17 pm »
Regarding Dalton, I think it is very plausible that Crono and co. neglected to consider Dalton a real threat. Just think about it: throw everything you learned in Chrono Cross out the window, and forget about the Fall of Guardia cutscene for one moment. If you knew nothing about any of that while Dalton made that threat, you'd have shrugged it off just like the characters did.

Dalton: I'M GOING TO RAISE AN ARMY IN PORRE AND KILL YOU ALL!!!
Magus: lmao wtf is porre it sounds french
Frog: it is french that's why they didn't lift a finger in 600AD
Crono: yeah magus wtf how are they still alive
Magus: idk some faggot got in my way
Frog: who
Magus: you
Frog: oh
Magus: dunked
Frog: yeah my bad you should've killed them
Magus: it's not too late.....................
Crono: ok let's go bye dalton
Magus: crono why the fuck are you talking
Crono: i'm mute and useless
Magus: that's better
Frog: g2g
Dalton: God, I fucking hate Square-Enix.

V_Translanka

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #694 on: February 19, 2009, 12:01:59 am »
I don't think they neglected Dalton, but simply that they never actually experienced what occurs within the Dimensional Vortexes. You only have access to them in New (/Continue) Game+...So while a version of Crono & Co. witnessed those events, I don't think the canon Crono & Co. did.

utunnels

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #695 on: February 19, 2009, 04:00:47 am »
Though, to be fair, there might not actually be a difference between Reptites and Dragonians. Utunnels discovered that there is no consistent naming methodology in the game (Reptites and Dragonians appear to be closer to Reptile-Men and Dragon-Men, the same sort of nomenclature applied to mystics and other things).

I think they are different.

Literally, Reptites = Dinomen
Dragonian = Dragonmen

It is obviously, dinosaurs are ancestors of dragons in CC. Just like humans evolved from apes.

chrono eric

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #696 on: February 19, 2009, 03:15:14 pm »
I believe it says somewhere in the Cross script (from a computer in Chronopolis I think) that the Dragonians evolved from Reptites. But I may be wrong about that and I don't have time to look right now.

mav

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #697 on: February 19, 2009, 03:56:03 pm »
Quote from: CC Script
[Computer]
   ~
   ~
   ~~ -- HUMANS & REPTITES -- ~~
   ~
   ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
   65 million years ago, the
   Reptites who evolved from
   reptiles had developed their
   own unique civilization...
   This was long before the
   ancestors of humans, who
   evolved from primates, had
   developed their civilization.
   Excavations carried out on the
   central continent of Zenan have
   revealed that the Reptites
   already had advanced architectural
   skills in the prehistoric era.
   But the fall of Lavos to the
   planet, and the resulting
   Ice Age this brought about,
   rang the death knell for the
   Reptites and their civilization.
   After that the Reptites
   slowly disappeared from
   the stage of history.
   However, in the distant past
   humans could have been defeated
   in the contest of evolution,
   and the Reptites could have
   continued to develop...
   It is not unthinkable that
   such a time line could exist
   in other dimensions.
   Everything is purely a
   problem of possibilities,
   and the world is only
   stabilized by the viewpoint
   of the one who observes it.
And here's another quote:
Quote from: CC Script
[Dragonian Record]
   All life on this planet
   was born in the sea.
   
   The life-forms softly
   slumbered within the
   womb of our mother sea...

   Until eventually they
   developed free will and
   were able to swim about
   the ocean freely.
   
   Then there came those that,
   not satisfied with life in the
   water, looked up from the ocean
   floor towards the blue skies and
   dreamt of the feel of the land.
   
   Aeons passed before their
   preposterous dream became
   a reality, and they rose up
   from the seas onto the earth.

   The land became full of
   all kinds of creatures.
   
   Among these, the dragon lizards
   and the more evolved Reptites
   thought they would reign over
   the earth forever.

Thought

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #698 on: February 19, 2009, 04:36:10 pm »
Yup.

But the point being, the nomenclature used in the games is odd. Mystics are generally referred to as a single species, yet there appears to be multiple varieties. While I may well have misunderstood utunnel's research, it appears that mystics are differentiated from normal monsters by just having "man" added onto their names.

In other words, it seems that the words that get translated into English as intelligent species may be closer to races or subgroups in the original language. Just a vague possibility to allow the 600AD Lost Sanctum Reptites to still be in the dragonian dimension. But as that doesn't seem to be working, I'm quite happy to conclude that they must be different places (or non-analogous time periods).

utunnels

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #699 on: February 20, 2009, 01:11:12 am »
It seems those Mystics are not considered in the main flow of evolution.
I know RD's story line is different, and the sunflower scenario is even more uncanonical, but maybe it gives some ideas.
魔人(bettle man, wolf man, dragon man...even Lavos man) is said to be legacy of ancient magic. We have seen a lot of "monsters" inside Ocean Palace which was supposed to be a human building, so maybe those intelligent beings were trained or reformed by human.

But, perhaps Magil was only talking about a magic that transfers a human's soul into a monster's body...



Is the origin of demi-humans stated in CC?
« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 02:02:00 am by utunnels »

utunnels

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #700 on: February 20, 2009, 07:18:26 am »
Yup.

But the point being, the nomenclature used in the games is odd. Mystics are generally referred to as a single species, yet there appears to be multiple varieties. While I may well have misunderstood utunnel's research, it appears that mystics are differentiated from normal monsters by just having "man" added onto their names.

In other words, it seems that the words that get translated into English as intelligent species may be closer to races or subgroups in the original language. Just a vague possibility to allow the 600AD Lost Sanctum Reptites to still be in the dragonian dimension. But as that doesn't seem to be working, I'm quite happy to conclude that they must be different places (or non-analogous time periods).

I double checked the script in Fort Dragonia(HW) - Dragon's Tear Chamber.

Quote
   Among these, the dragon lizards
   and the more evolved Reptites
   thought they would reign over
   the earth forever.
.........
   Wielding absolute power,
   Lavos buried the dinosaurs -
   the kings of the land -
   in the space of a night.

"dragon lizards" was "giant dragons" in original script, the kanji 竜 was used instead of 龍.
As I said in another topic, 竜 is usually used to call the creature in western legends(dragon, of course), and dinosaur(恐竜).
Although 竜=龍, it is only accepted through common practice that 竜 was used for western dragon, not a rule.

"Reptite" was 竜人 in original script (dragon man), so you can figure out this dragon is in fact dinosaur, actually, it should be dinoman.
In other places of the game, they usually use 龍, for example, dragonian = 龍人.



« Last Edit: February 20, 2009, 07:55:05 am by utunnels »

Thought

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #701 on: February 20, 2009, 10:36:12 am »
Is the origin of demi-humans stated in CC?

Not that I can find.

Given that they seem to be different than mystics (but we've already discussed the difficulty of classifying a mystic) and not present in the original game, it is usually supposed that they are the result of the Time Crash. More than that is wild guess-work (and even that is tame guess work). Its been suggested that they are a cross between dragonians and humans, that they are humans from the dragonian dimension, that they were created by the Frozen Flame, etc, but everything lacks support.

Chrono'99

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #702 on: February 20, 2009, 01:46:19 pm »
The creation of Lynx certainly doesn't lack support...

Thought

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #703 on: February 20, 2009, 02:04:44 pm »
Yup, though one can hardly suppose that all demi-humans were originally humans who came in contact with the Frozen Flame, had the image of their son dying cause fundamental changes in themselve, had their pysche eroded, their soul stolen, became a biological interface for FATE, and had their physical form specifically crafted by FATE into Serge's worst fear at the time.

Indeed, Lynx seems to be largely singular in his creation.

Quote from: Crono
   I don't know how to break
   this to you, but...
   Lynx was actually your
   father, Wazuki!
   Drawing closer to the Flame
   caused him to become unstable,
   and the image of you dying in
   terror changed him completely!
   Finally, after having his
   psyche totally eroded,
   he lost his soul and was
   easily integrated by FATE...
   FATE turned Wazuki into a
   biological interface, modelling
   him after your worst fear at
   the time -- a panther.

Fireseal

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Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« Reply #704 on: February 20, 2009, 05:08:15 pm »
Is the origin of demi-humans stated in CC?

Not that I can find.

Given that they seem to be different than mystics (but we've already discussed the difficulty of classifying a mystic) and not present in the original game, it is usually supposed that they are the result of the Time Crash. More than that is wild guess-work (and even that is tame guess work). Its been suggested that they are a cross between dragonians and humans, that they are humans from the dragonian dimension, that they were created by the Frozen Flame, etc, but everything lacks support.

Wasn't it stated, as the only explanation, that demi-humans were the offspring of the Dragonians from Dinopolis and of the Humans from Chronopolis?