An Elemental Model for Character Abilities

[Swordmaster]

Good point about Masa and Mune.  Should've remembered that myself.  They're dream beings representing life.  I don't think Zeal used the CC model, though, because Chronopolis, and in turn, Dinopolis, weren't around until 7600 B.C. as opposed to Zeal's fall 4400 years earlier, and in no case do Elements exist before the advent of those two forces.

Yes but I talk about how the Zealians see the elements that made the universe in theyr cosmology.

Another thing is those elementals books used in the puzzles in Kajar: Water, wind ,Fire

[razor's edge]

Magic is a threat to Lavos, but he does not perceive it as such. He allows humans to hold magic for a long period of time, its all about attaining perfect evolution for Lavos, to use a planets living resources, find what is best, and give that to itself. If the mystics ever did acquire magic from a source outside of themselves, it was most likely Lavos.

If magic wasn't a threat to Lavos, then he would have no reason to destroy Zeal. The humans of Zeal worshipped Lavos, and did not want him dead. Lavos must have felt they were a threat and that he needed to destroy the Zealians and take away their magic; if he didn't, then he'd have kept them for their DNA.

Good point about Masa and Mune. Should've remembered that myself. They're dream beings representing life. I don't think Zeal used the CC model, though, because Chronopolis, and in turn, Dinopolis, weren't around until 7600 B.C. as opposed to Zeal's fall 4400 years earlier, and in no case do Elements exist before the advent of those two forces.

Yes but I talk about how the Zealians see the elements that made the universe in theyr cosmology.

Another thing is those elementals books used in the puzzles in Kajar: Water, wind ,Fire

About the books, Water and Fire, both in CT; but Wind seems to represent Crono's element (Lightning/Heaven) since he has some wind-ish attacks.  Think about it: there are 4 elements in CT, with books for 3, where Shadow element is a combination of the other 3. I think that further represents that the 4 elements make up the universe, not the 6 CC Elements.

[V_Translanka]

If magic wasn't a threat to Lavos, then he would have no reason to destroy Zeal. The humans of Zeal worshipped Lavos, and did not want him dead. Lavos must have felt they were a threat and that he needed to destroy the Zealians and take away their magic; if he didn't, then he'd have kept them for their DNA.

I don't think that's necessarilly the case. It's obvious that Lavos is a fairly cranky sleeper. Absorbing from a distance is cool with it, but try and summon  it or get too close...fuggid about it! Lavos'll toss everything he's got & more at ya! Perhaps it has to do with it's wierd hybernation period. Maybe it just goes into automated defense mode when something intrudes on its space.

I don't really see many (if any) of Crono's Techs as being really "wind"-based at all...Slash is obviously a chi-like attack, and the rest are either regular physical attacks or are lightning/heavenly.

The books I saw as just being a little Nu puzzle (wasn't it a Nu that tells you the "secret"?). Water summons Wind. Wind makes Fire dance. Wait...that's something I never really understood...Why the heck does Water summon Wind???

[Faulce]

If magic wasn't a threat to Lavos, then he would have no reason to destroy Zeal. The humans of Zeal worshipped Lavos, and did not want him dead. Lavos must have felt they were a threat and that he needed to destroy the Zealians and take away their magic; if he didn't, then he'd have kept them for their DNA.

I don't think that's necessarilly the case. It's obvious that Lavos is a fairly cranky sleeper. Absorbing from a distance is cool with it, but try and summon  it or get too close...fuggid about it! Lavos'll toss everything he's got & more at ya! Perhaps it has to do with it's wierd hybernation period. Maybe it just goes into automated defense mode when something intrudes on its space.

I don't really see many (if any) of Crono's Techs as being really "wind"-based at all...Slash is obviously a chi-like attack, and the rest are either regular physical attacks or are lightning/heavenly.

The books I saw as just being a little Nu puzzle (wasn't it a Nu that tells you the "secret"?). Water summons Wind. Wind makes Fire dance. Wait...that's something I never really understood...Why the heck does Water summon Wind???

Could be some odd understanding that waves make the wind. Besides giving you the answer to the puzzle, it is probably meant to show the relationship between the elements.

EDIT:

«The Mystery of Life»
   Vol. 841, Ch. 26

   All life begins with Nu and ends with
   Nu...

   This is the truth!
   This is my belief!
   ...at least for now.

Remember when the topic "what if Nu refers to water" came up? Perhaps Water is the first element, the most important. Its a stretch, but considering it is primarily a curative element, it makes sense that it would be the element involved in the creation of the universe or the creation of life or something.
Just a thought.

[razor's edge]

If magic wasn't a threat to Lavos, then he would have no reason to destroy Zeal. The humans of Zeal worshipped Lavos, and did not want him dead. Lavos must have felt they were a threat and that he needed to destroy the Zealians and take away their magic; if he didn't, then he'd have kept them for their DNA.

I don't think that's necessarilly the case. It's obvious that Lavos is a fairly cranky sleeper. Absorbing from a distance is cool with it, but try and summon  it or get too close...fuggid about it! Lavos'll toss everything he's got & more at ya! Perhaps it has to do with it's wierd hybernation period. Maybe it just goes into automated defense mode when something intrudes on its space.

The only time where Lavos was really summoned was when Magus summoned him in 600 AD. Lavos didn't destroy the world in 600 AD after summoned, so that proves that Lavos does not destroy genetic material without a reason. Waking up cranky has nothing to do with it.

[SilentMartyr]

If magic wasn't a threat to Lavos, then he would have no reason to destroy Zeal. The humans of Zeal worshipped Lavos, and did not want him dead. Lavos must have felt they were a threat and that he needed to destroy the Zealians and take away their magic; if he didn't, then he'd have kept them for their DNA.

I don't think that's necessarilly the case. It's obvious that Lavos is a fairly cranky sleeper. Absorbing from a distance is cool with it, but try and summon  it or get too close...fuggid about it! Lavos'll toss everything he's got & more at ya! Perhaps it has to do with it's wierd hybernation period. Maybe it just goes into automated defense mode when something intrudes on its space.

The only time where Lavos was really summoned was when Magus summoned him in 600 AD. Lavos didn't destroy the world in 600 AD after summoned, so that proves that Lavos does not destroy genetic material without a reason. Waking up cranky has nothing to do with it.

The way I see it Lavos destroyed Zeal becuase they were sucking too much of its power. Like the Queen said they would become immortal once the ocean palace was complete. Not before when the Mammon machine was in Zeal palace. They were using Lavos's power then, but not enough of it. But once they activated the Machine in the Ocean Palace Lavos realized/decided that thier time of using it was up and it decimated the place.

As for when Magus summoned him, he teleported them away because it knew that if they all fought it together they had a chance of destroying it. So instead of instigating a fight he moved Magus back to 12,000 B.C. knowing fully that he could take him on by himself, back then he would have no other help. Sending the group to 65,000,000 B.C. was to hope that they would be killed in the crash. Lavos could not forsee the entity making the gate where it landed. Most likely the entity knew that they needed Magus's help in conquering Lavos, after assimilating Ayla into the group getting Magus was the last peice of the puzzle.

[sarua]

But in original timeline Lavos killed Magus when he summoned it. Imho it was Lavos some kinda automatic self defense like V_Translanka said or Lavos was shoked that one man was aviable to summon him and probably seen his power so decided to destroy him or probably most logical version is that Magus immediately attacked Lavos, so Lavos was defending himself. About zeal i think that Lavos was angry that quen wanted to get much more power from him than he was wiling to give

[razor's edge]

I don't think Lavos's attack on Zeal and killing Magus in the original timeline could be automated self defense like some suggest. If it was, ok, Lavos destroyed Zeal when they intruded on his personal space. But then, when Magus summoned him, that would also be intruding on Lavos's space, so why did Lavos only kill Magus, as opposed to destroying 600 AD? It must have been a conscience decision by Lavos, because if Lavos's attack in 12000 BC was automatic, then he would have done the same exact thing in 600 AD. Therefore, Lavos destroyed Zeal because they were a threat, and, in the original timeline, killed Magus. Because of the interference of Crono & Co. when Magus was summoning Lavos, the summoning spell went awry, randomly sending Crono & Co. to 65 million BC, and, either Magus used his magic to direct himself thru the impromtu portal to 12000 BC, or he just randomly ended up there.

[sarua]

So maybe in original timeline Lavos thought that all zeal is potencial enemy to him and in 600AD he though that magus is potencial enemy, but not mystics, just magus

[SilentMartyr]

Magus had no control over the portal that took them out of Magus's castle. He said something along the lines of "Don't wake up on me now". So that portal was either the handywork of Lavos or the entity, but definetely not Magus.

[razor's edge]

I wasn't saying Magus controlled the portal, I'm just saying that Magus could have used his magic while in the portal to direct himself to 12000 BC, otherwise he would have ended up at 65000000 BC too. Since Magus was in the process of summoning Lavos when Crono & Co fight him, the spell most likely went wrong when they beat him. A spell of such magnitude that could summon Lavos across space and time would need a lot of concentration I'd think. It even says during the battle after fighting Magus for a bit, "Magus risks casting a spell!" The portal was a result of the Lavos summoning spell messing up, whether caused by Lavos waking up or otherwise.

[V_Translanka]

I'll go over a few of the newer things...

The Water=Nu Theory is kind of interesting, since, in CC, we see the Nu represented by the Beach Bum sprite. Food for thought anyways.

Also...Zeal summons Lavos after she's defeated on the Black Omen, where he then seems to absorb the Black Omen and then fights the party.

I don't think that Lavos was completely summoned at all in 600 when Magus uses his spell. We see no evidence at all that he was during or after (if you come back to Magus's Castle). Lavos simply opens the gate and flings Magus off in one direction and the party in another. The gate itself is enormous in magnitude. We never see anything like it in the game. The only two things we know can create gates are the Entity and Lavos (when he sends everyone every-which-way during the Ocean Palace scene in the original timeline). While it's possible that Magus could have used magic to 'direct' his way, he says during the scene on the Cape that it was a surprise to him to be sent to that era. Plus, we never see anyone capable of directing where a gate goes...Nor do we see Magus having any sort of control over them (heck, Schala's the one who seals the gate when he throws you out).

And speaking of the original timeline and Magus...We do not know concretely if Magus was killed in the original timeline during his summoning of Lavos. It's entirely possible that Lavos STILL used a portal to fling Magus off into who-knows-when.

[razor's edge]

I forgot about Magus saying that(on the Cape)...

on Lavos being summoned in 600 AD and Magus in the original timeline...

Belthasar: Lavos disappeared briefly when he was summoned away by a mighty wizard who lived in Guardia, in the year 600.

Lavos was successfully summoned by Magus in the original timeline, because Belthasar pretty much knows everything. The word 'disappeared' does not leave room for the possibility of a partially summoned Lavos.

something else I noticed...
In Enhasa, Janus tells the party that the black wind is blowing, and one of them will die soon.(couldn't find the exact quote)
Then in Zeal before Crono & Co get captured:

Janus: The black wind...
Schala: You feel it too?

Both Janus and Schala can sense this black wind, which seems to mean that someone's gonna die.  Crono dies, so Janus's prediction about the party came true. Also, it can be said that Zeal dies(the place, not the queen).

When you go to fight Magus in his castle...

Magus: Ah... The Masamune!!! I bet you're just dying to use it! The black wind begins to blow... Okay... give me your best shot... If you're prepared for the void!

Since Magus is a no-nonsense-let's-get-this-over-with kinda guy, I doubt he was mentioning the black wind in an effort to be ominous, I think he really did feel the black wind. Now, here's where it gets interesting...

At the Ocean Palace, when the Prophet reveals himself to be Magus...

Magus: I’ve been waiting for you, Lavos.  I swore long ago... that I'd destroy you!  No matter what the price!  It is time to fulfill that vow. Feel my wrath, Lavos!!

Magus attacks Lavos...

Magus: Wh, what...? It doesn't work?! Aughhh!!

Magus was shocked to discover that he could not hurt Lavos. After Crono dies...

Magus: I can't... beat him. Lavos...!

Magus summoned Lavos with the full intention of defeating Lavos, not knowing that he could not take Lavos on by himself. From what Belthasar said, we know that Magus successfully summoned Lavos in the original timeline, and Magus had no idea that he could not hurt Lavos. Magus felt the black wind in the changed timeline, and the black wind has a pretty good track record. Since the interference of Crono & Co at the castle were not part of the original timeline, and since Magus cannot hurt Lavos at that point, the black wind Magus felt must have been for himself. Therefore, after successfully summoning Lavos, Magus was killed by Lavos in the original timeline.

[SilentMartyr]

Magus summoned Lavos with the full intention of defeating Lavos, not knowing that he could not take Lavos on by himself. From what Belthasar said, we know that Magus successfully summoned Lavos in the original timeline, and Magus had no idea that he could not hurt Lavos. Magus felt the black wind in the changed timeline, and the black wind has a pretty good track record. Since the interference of Crono & Co at the castle were not part of the original timeline, and since Magus cannot hurt Lavos at that point, the black wind Magus felt must have been for himself. Therefore, after successfully summoning Lavos, Magus was killed by Lavos in the original timeline.

I don't know about that reasoning, We don't know if Magus felt the black wind in the Lavos Timeline. There is nothing in the game to portray that. But you do bring up a good point. I forget about him feeling the black wind, that pretty much garuntee's that the gate was the entities doing and not Lavos. The wind was most likely for everyone, Lavos was probably going to fustigate them once he teleported in. By the entity said no sir and teleported everyone away. I guess it sent the group to 65,000,000 B.C. first so it could witness Lavos's arrival on earth. Then after the landing it sent the to 12,000 so they could get the necessary tools and personel to defeat Lavos. So scratch the whole Lavos making that gate theory.

[V_Translanka]

Okay, even if I buy into what Belthasar's saying about Lavos being summoned...That's only about the original, Lavos, timeline. At the very least, when Crono & Co show up, they throw that out the window. The summoning is disrupted and Lavos obviously doesn't appear. In Lavos's place? A giant gate. And also, I don't think the Black Wind is so focused. It isn't something that's just about someone about to die. When he feels it in his castle, who dies there? Himself? Not really...But he is defeated. I don't think that Black Wind=Death. I believe it's more a forwarning of some kind, depending on who senses it and how they sense it.

In Chrono Cross, a 'wind' is mentioned to be around Serge...Damn if I don't have the quote though...It's from the old woman Direa? Well, it's around Serge because he's supposed to be dead in that timeline, but he's not. I don't think there's enough on the Black Wind to be so concretely defined...Or at least, not from just what you're saying of it.