Author Topic: An Elemental Model for Character Abilities  (Read 26971 times)

Faulce

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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2005, 12:24:10 am »
Quote from: Leebot
Or, they might be more natural as they come from the culture that evolved without Lavos' corruption. It's possible the Draconian elements are the way they were meant to be (at least on this planet), while the CT elements are unnatural, and due to Lavos' corruption.

This reminds me of another interesting point: the six elemental dragons. They seem to be the ultimate representation of CC's paradigm. To use the chess metaphor, if we were to find out that a "Chess God" existed, we may start to question whether chess is really so artificial.

But didnt the elements exist before Lavos? I thought only applied magic was created by Lavos (hence why Ayla cant use magic). In order to use magic in CT, you had to either be aware of your innate element, or had to have the ability to use applied magic unlocked. Also, the magic you used had to be of your own element, unless you paired up with someone else.  The Draconian elements seem to have the "just plug it in and use it" attitude. Not to sound completely stupid, but it sounds like the Bulma (from dragonball) solution to harnessing elemental power

Leebot

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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2005, 01:08:41 am »
Look at it along these lines: Elements are a natural phenomena of the world. Magic as seen in CT is artificial, as are its elements; they were brought to the planet by Lavos and it's his influence that enables it.

Here's why it makes more sense this way: Creatures evolve to make use of aspects of nature. We can see in CC that not only are humans able to use elements easily, but all monsters can as well. If elements were a part of nature, it would make sense that evolution would have caused creatures to be able to use them naturally.

In CT, however, nothing uses magic naturally, it has to be unlocked in one way or another. Magic is like a tool, you can't use it until you're taught how to use it (like a fork compared to ones teeth. One can use ones teeth instinctively, but will be puzzled by a fork until someone else teaches them how to use it).

Compare:

The Penguin is adapted to cold and wet climates.
The Camel is adapted to hot and dry climates. - Both are natural, and plausible.

The Penguin is adept at fighting with a knife.
The Camel is better with a club. - Both are artificial adaptations. They're ridiculous, and aren't part of reality.

Then why don't we see Element use in CT? <reality check>The programmers hadn't planned it yet.</reality check> Maybe Lavos had repressed the Elemental power of the planet when he erupted in 12,000 BC, and it was restored by the Dragonians when Terra Tower came to the world. Animals still had the ability to use Elements, as even 13,000 years (the unattainable maximum time) might not be enough to evolve it out of organisms.

Other evidence the Elements are natural: the mythology built up around them. Belthasar talks about the stars and moons representing the elemental dragons, which represent the elements. Given what he says with regards to the second moon, I infer that this is more than just a metaphor or myth; it's part of nature. We don't see the same thing with Lavos elements.

The point I'm trying to make is that the elemental divisions in CC are natural, while the divisions seen in CT are artificial simplifications (likely white and yellow combined to heaven, while green and blue combined to water, or something similar), brought by Lavos.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2005, 01:27:13 am »
Quote from: Leebot
Or, they might be more natural as they come from the culture that evolved without Lavos' corruption. It's possible the Draconian elements are the way they were meant to be (at least on this planet), while the CT elements are unnatural, and due to Lavos' corruption.

This reminds me of another interesting point: the six elemental dragons. They seem to be the ultimate representation of CC's paradigm. To use the chess metaphor, if we were to find out that a "Chess God" existed, we may start to question whether chess is really so artificial.


Have you reviewed the Magic in CT and CC topic?  It's looks like I have to repost Spekkio's dialog.

Quote
SPEKKIO: You are strong of will...!

   That's why the Old One let you
   through.

   Long before you were born...
   ...there was a kingdom where magic
   flourished.
   Everyone there could use it!

   But in time, people began to abuse
   their powers. It got so bad that no
   one was allowed to use magic except
   wizards.

   But you have it...determination, I
   mean!
   Magic needs power of the heart.
   It needs inner strength.

   Magic is divided into 4 types:
   Lightning, Fire, Water, & Shadow.


SPEKKIO: You, with the punk hairdo!
   You're "Lightning."

SPEKKIO: The one with the ponytail is
   "Water."

SPEKKIO: The one with goofy glasses is
   "Fire."

SPEKKIO: That's the biggest toy I've
   ever seen...
   Hey, you're not alive, are you?!

   You've got great strength, however,
   since I can't measure your inner
   character, I can't give any magic to
   you.

   But your laser weapons will suffice.
   They can inflict "Shadow" type
   damage.

SPEKKIO: Not just magic, but
   EVERYTHING is based on the balance
   of these 4 powers.


SPEKKIO: What a weird fellow.
   Being a frog, let's give him "Water!"

SPEKKIO: All right!
   Sweetheart!

   Unfortunately, you were born before
   magic existed! But you seem to have
   other skills that will get you by.

SPEKKIO: ...Phew...!!

   You hauled in a marlin here, kids!

   He can use "Shadow"...
   And he could probably teach me a
   thing or two!


We can only assume Spekkio is telling the truth.  The four elements form the basis for everything in the universe.  This is a fact, clearly stated in the game.

Unless Lavos changed the laws of physics for the entire universe, it is not responsible for the existence of the magical elements.  The elements existed in this form in 65 million BC before Lavos arrived, and in 2300 AD after Lavos was destroyed.

The Dragonian Elements and Color system cannot be more "natural" than the magical elements.  The Elements were created by harnessing the planet's energy, rather than magically manipulating the fundamental forces of the universe.

The Language of Spekkio's statement is also clearly exclusive.  There are no other magical elements.  Any other physical property, including the Dragonian Elemental Colors, must be based on the four magical elements.

Lastly, we know the exact nature of the Dragons Gods, and they are far from Divine.  They are the avatars of a multi-dimensional organic computer created by the Reptites.  In other words, they represent the components of an artificial being.

Leebot

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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2005, 08:02:28 am »
<reality check>Actually, the laws of physics did change. When the programmers wrote CC, they changed the elemental system to cover six colors. Now, even the Time Devourer (=Lavos) uses elements.</reality check>

Simple counter-point: So, you're saying the elements are Fire, Water, Heaven, and Shadow, right? Elements, by their nature, must be elemental--nothing can combine to form them. Then how come Fire + Water + Heaven = Shadow? It's like saying the primary colors of light are red, blue, green, and white.

Now, Spekkio may not have been lying, but he may have been wrong. If you'd asked an ancient greek scientist what made up the universe, they may have said:
Quote from: Ancient Greek Scientist
Everything in the universe is made up of Earth, Air, Fire and Water.

He's not lying, but we know now that he's wrong. The evolution of science keeps leading us to lower and lower layers of reality. When atomic theory led us to believe that different atoms made up everything, we named different types of atoms "elements." Then we found out that atoms contained protons and electrons. Then we found out there were also neutrons. Then we find out protons and neutrons are made of quarks.

What's to say the same didn't happen in the CT/CC world? Spekkio thought that Fire/Water/Heaven/Shadow were elemental (why? Maybe because he only learned this from Gaspar, who only knew of Lavos-type magic. Maybe he's the embodiment of Lavos-type magic.), so he said this as fact. Now, in CC, the Dragonians have taught us that reality is actually made up of six elements, which mingle together to form the aforementioned four.

sarua

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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2005, 08:33:46 am »
And why CT/CC world must be same as ours? In CT/CC there may be other 4 main powers. And if Spekkio doesn`t know truth than ho knows? He probably seen evrything what happend or gona hapen. And we know that cc elements are older than ct magic, so maybe dragonians thought that there are 6 main powers so they created 6 colors of elements

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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2005, 05:47:47 pm »
Are CC Elements older? I didn't think it specifically stated when the Dragonians found them, only when the Dragonians came into existance and the fact that they did find them.

There's another aspect of the CC Elements that people seem to look over. I believe that it's entirely possible that Lavos is responsible for them as well. We know that CC Elements come from power points from the earth, perhaps like how lava comes up from cracks in the tectonic plates? That said, since they come from somewhere deep in the earth, could they not have been effected by Lavos's presence?

Like it (Lavos) absorbs the earth's power, we saw that the earth also absorbed it's (Lavos's) power through Dreamstone. Perhaps the CC Elements are akin to Dreamstone.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2005, 06:14:33 pm »
Quote from: Leebot
<reality check>Actually, the laws of physics did change. When the programmers wrote CC, they changed the elemental system to cover six colors. Now, even the Time Devourer (=Lavos) uses elements.</reality check>


The laws of physics did not change in the story.  The programmer introduced a different magic system.  Unless we throw the continuity of the Chrono series out the window, the Dragonian and Magical elements have to coexist.

Quote from: Leebot
Simple counter-point: So, you're saying the elements are Fire, Water, Heaven, and Shadow, right? Elements, by their nature, must be elemental--nothing can combine to form them. Then how come Fire + Water + Heaven = Shadow? It's like saying the primary colors of light are red, blue, green, and white.


When I use multi-techs in Chrono Cross, the elemental colors of the single-techs also combine to form another color.  This is a property of both the Dragonian and Magic elements.  However, any combination of magical elements produces shadow, which is different than how the Dragonian Colors combine.

Quote from: Leebot
Now, Spekkio may not have been lying, but he may have been wrong. If you'd asked an ancient greek scientist what made up the universe, they may have said:
Quote from: Ancient Greek Scientist
Everything in the universe is made up of Earth, Air, Fire and Water.

He's not lying, but we know now that he's wrong. The evolution of science keeps leading us to lower and lower layers of reality. When atomic theory led us to believe that different atoms made up everything, we named different types of atoms "elements." Then we found out that atoms contained protons and electrons. Then we found out there were also neutrons. Then we find out protons and neutrons are made of quarks.

What's to say the same didn't happen in the CT/CC world? Spekkio thought that Fire/Water/Heaven/Shadow were elemental (why? Maybe because he only learned this from Gaspar, who only knew of Lavos-type magic. Maybe he's the embodiment of Lavos-type magic.), so he said this as fact. Now, in CC, the Dragonians have taught us that reality is actually made up of six elements, which mingle together to form the aforementioned four.


Ancient Greeks such as Aristotle were philosophers, not scientists.  Scientists use the scientific method.  The magical elements are not comparable to the Aristotelean elements because because the actually exist.

Magic is not directly related to Lavos.  The magical elements existed before Lavos' arrival and after its destruction.

The CC script never states that the six elemental colors ever form the basis for reality.

Are you changing your hypothesis?  You originally stated that the magical elements were artificial.  The Dragonian Elements are artifacts which utilize the planet's energy.  The Magical Elements may be secondary to the Elemental Colors, but this requires Spekkio's ignorance.  Spekkio is a self proclaimed god, and a being of great power.  Also, no one discovered the existence of these elements pior to the arrival of the Dragonians.

Leebot

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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2005, 06:30:52 pm »
Quote from: GrayLensman
The laws of physics did not change in the story. The programmer introduced a different magic system. Unless we throw the continuity of the Chrono series out the window, the Dragonian and Magical elements have to coexist.

Why do you think I tagged it "reality check"? This is looking at it from beyond the fourth wall. The programmers needed a new system, so they changed it, so that even Lavos (or the closest equivalent we see) uses this system.

Quote from: GrayLensman
Ancient Greeks such as Aristotle were philosophers, not scientists. Scientists use the scientific method. The magical elements are not comparable to the Aristotelean elements because because the actually exist.
Quote from: GrayLensman
Are you changing your hypothesis? You originally stated that the magical elements were artificial. The Dragonian Elements are artifacts which utilize the planet's energy.


1. Back then, philosophers were as close as it came to scientists, and this point is completely irrelevant to our discussion.

2. Which actually exist? The Aristotelean elements are aspects of nature, but not in any way they thought. The magical elements of CT don't exist either.

3. Changing my hypothesis? Do you even know how the scientific method works? Once you've started an experiment or analysis, your hypothesis is set in stone, and it's also meaningless. While I'm in a discussion, I allow my theories to change based on available information and my developing thoughts on the matter; to do otherwise is unscientific. You might want to consider this yourself, rather than sticking blindly to one side of an argument.

4. Looking back on my posts, I don't see myself claiming the (CC) elements are artificial. I did theorize that the CT elements may be a simplification.

Quote from: GrayLensman
Magic is not directly related to Lavos. The magical elements existed before Lavos' arrival and after its destruction.

How do you know any of this?

Quote from: GrayLensman
Spekkio is a self proclaimed god, and a being of great power.

"self proclaimed"

GrayLensman

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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2005, 07:02:49 pm »
This is in reply to a comment of the Chrono Shock message board.

Quote from: Hiroshino
Yeah, it all makes sense to me pretty much. I also had a theory of my own that all of the Magic attributes, if that is the right word for it, such as Heaven/Lightning, Fire, Ice/Water, and Shadow, all fit into different Element/Elemental attributes, again if that is the right word for it.

One thing concerns me though. The part about how...

Quote from: GrayLensman
If Crono's physical body is damaged to the point that his biological systems fail, Marle can restore him while his elemental energy remains. Healing is simply the reinforcement of an entity's elemental energy.

Does this only refer to when Crono dies, but his physical body is still pretty much intact? What if he loses some limbs or takes some damage to the brain that causes some brain damage or memory loss? And what if he is disintigrated like with the situation when he "died" at the Ocean Palace?

The Ocean Palace incident is a special case.  There was no opportunity to resurrect Crono, and the blast that destroyed his body may not have been a standard magical attack.

Quote
Robo: If we're caught in that
   energy field, our molecular structure
   will be disrupted!

I think Lavos completely dispersed or absorbed Crono's energy.

The battle system doesn't offer any information on what injuries characters can sustain.  I equate hit points with energy and not physical condition.  Crono's physical state is determined by his elemental properties.  As long as he has adequate energy, Crono's body will remain intact.

If Crono's physical body is disabled or destroyed, an information signature will be retained for a short time in his elemental energy.  Healing will restore him to his natural state.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2005, 08:01:19 pm »
Quote from: Leebot
Quote from: GrayLensman
The laws of physics did not change in the story. The programmer introduced a different magic system. Unless we throw the continuity of the Chrono series out the window, the Dragonian and Magical elements have to coexist.

Why do you think I tagged it "reality check"? This is looking at it from beyond the fourth wall. The programmers needed a new system, so they changed it, so that even Lavos (or the closest equivalent we see) uses this system.

I don't think Chrono Cross breaks continuity with Chrono Trigger.  Dragonian Elements were introduced as part of the story, not a purely game play mechanism.  If there is no continuity between the games, then this discussion is pointless.

Quote from: Leebot
Quote from: GrayLensman
Ancient Greeks such as Aristotle were philosophers, not scientists. Scientists use the scientific method. The magical elements are not comparable to the Aristotelean elements because because the actually exist.
Are you changing your hypothesis? You originally stated that the magical elements were artificial. The Dragonian Elements are artifacts which utilize the planet's energy.

1. Back then, philosophers were as close as it came to scientists, and this point is completely irrelevant to our discussion.

True, but I wanted to make the distinction.

Quote from: Leebot
2. Which actually exist? The Aristotelean elements are aspects of nature, but not in any way they thought. The magical elements of CT don't exist either.

The magical elements of CT absolutely do exist.  The magical elements are real physical forces which can be harnessed to produce various effects in the Chrono universe.  The power of the elements may be easily demonstrated.  The Aristotelean elements constitute a flawed model to describe nature.  Fire, Air, Water and Earth are not actual physical properties.

Quote from: Leebot
3. Changing my hypothesis? Do you even know how the scientific method works? Once you've started an experiment or analysis, your hypothesis is set in stone, and it's also meaningless. While I'm in a discussion, I allow my theories to change based on available information and my developing thoughts on the matter; to do otherwise is unscientific. You might want to consider this yourself, rather than sticking blindly to one side of an argument.

This is uncalled for.  I know perfectly well what the scientific method is.  You did change your hypothesis.  You originally stated that the magical elements were created by Lavos.  
Quote from: Leebot
Elements are a natural phenomena of the world. Magic as seen in CT is artificial, as are its elements; they were brought to the planet by Lavos and it's his influence that enables it.

You then stated that the magical elements were natural physical forces, but secondary to the Dragonian elemental colors.
Quote from: Leebot
Now, in CC, the Dragonians have taught us that reality is actually made up of six elements, which mingle together to form the aforementioned four.

If you change the premise of your argument, you should be clear about what you changed and why to avoid confusion.

Quote from: Leebot
4. Looking back on my posts, I don't see myself claiming the (CC)[CT?] elements are artificial. I did theorize that the CT elements may be a simplification.

Yes, you did.
Quote from: Leebot
Elements are a natural phenomena of the world. Magic as seen in CT is artificial, as are its elements; they were brought to the planet by Lavos and it's his influence that enables it.


Quote from: Leebot
Quote from: GrayLensman
Magic is not directly related to Lavos. The magical elements existed before Lavos' arrival and after its destruction.

How do you know any of this?

Since magic works in 65 million BC before Lavos arrives, I conclude that it functions without Lavos' influence.
Quote
Prophet: Oh, my name is Belthasar... In the ancient, magical Kingdom of Zeal, I was
known as a sage of reason... Well, that was up until the Queen of Zeal attempted to
harness the power of Lavos... Let's just say, things got out of control and Lavos
created a dimensional vortex that threw me far into the future! There, I seized the
opportunity to study the science of the future... I was then able to apply to that
the knowledge I brought from my own era, including magic, which was long lost in the
future.

Belthasar can use Magic in 2300 AD after Lavos is destroyed.

Quote from: Leebot
Quote from: GrayLensman
Spekkio is a self proclaimed god, and a being of great power.

"self proclaimed"

Regardless of whether Spekkio is actually a god, he is a very wise and powerful being.

Leebot

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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2005, 09:12:19 pm »
Quote from: GrayLensman
I don't think Chrono Cross breaks continuity with Chrono Trigger. Dragonian Elements were introduced as part of the story, not a purely game play mechanism. If there is no continuity between the games, then this discussion is pointless.

I once again raise the point that the Time Devourer (Lavos) uses CC Elements. If, as your theory goes, CC Elements are purely artificial technology, then how did he gain access to them in the DBT? Also, how come every monster in the game is able to use them, plus has their own stockpile?

Now, if CC Elements are natural, it makes sense that animals would have evolved to use them. In fact, this is the point that leads me most strongly to believe that CC Elements are the natural form of magic, while CT magic (which no monsters use) is more artificial.

Quote from: GrayLensman
The magical elements of CT absolutely do exist. The magical elements are real physical forces which can be harnessed to produce various effects in the Chrono universe. The power of the elements may be easily demonstrated. The Aristotelean elements constitute a flawed model to describe nature. Fire, Air, Water and Earth are not actual physical properties.

Well, the Aristotelean elements do exist, just not in the elemental way he theorized. This could be analogous to the CT elements, they do exist in the CT universe, but they're not quite as elemental as Spekkio believes.

Quote from: GrayLensman
This is uncalled for. I know perfectly well what the scientific method is. You did change your hypothesis. You originally stated that the magical elements were created by Lavos.

I call 'em as I see 'em. Never enter a scientific discussion unprepared to bend.

Now, you seem to have trouble differentiating a hypothesis from a theory.

A hypothesis is a proposition made at the beginning of an investigation. One intends to verify whether the hypothesis is accurate by gathering evidence.

A theory is a proposition made after heavy analysis in an attempt to explain reality. Theories change often, and I never set my theories in stone.

Then we get into a bit of confusion about whether we're talking about the CC Elements or CT elements...

What I meant by saying that the CT elements are artificial is that these elements were created as a basis for CT-type magic, and are not purely natural as the CC colors are.

My discussion of Lavos enabling the CT magic and stuff is just a possible explanation of why we don't see CC-style magic in CT. We can use CT-magic at any point as the basic CC-elements permeate the world at any point in the timeline, and these are the true building blocks needed for any form of magic.

Now: Spekkio. This analysis depends heavily on what his true nature is. If we take him to be...

A creation of Gaspar: He'd know no more about magic than Gaspar, who came from the age of Lavos-powered magic. It would make sense that Gaspar would have "programmed" his theories on magic into Spekkio, right or wrong.

The embodiment of CT magic: His perception of the universe would be limited entirely to the CT elements. He doesn't notice--and isn't harmed by--Crono's sword as it isn't made of the CT elements. Without delving too much into the metaphysical, if he only knows the elements as the universe, he would say that everything is made of the elements.

A true god: Everything he says is fact. Well, unless he's capricious or just crazy, and would lie on purpose. Maybe even a god's knowledge is limited.

A nu: Who the hell knows what's up with nus.

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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2005, 11:46:47 pm »
Spekkio does say that everything is based on the balance of the CT elements. However as Leebot was saying, if Spekkio has any sort of creation connection to Gaspar, his knowledge is limited as such. Spekkio, therefore, would be able to harness the CT elements like all humans influenced by Lavos and wouldnt know any better.  And now that I think about it, what monsters do use the CT elements? well wait, many of them. Their magical attacks cause elemental damage dont they? You can prove that by wearing the elemental absorbing armors. If they didnt use elements, those armors wouldnt absorb anything.  
So all I'm saying is: (1) Spekkio's words probably dont relate to the issue as he may have some sort of "creation connection" to Gaspar, so his knowledge may be skewed. and... (2) Monsters in CT do harness CT elements as element absorbing armors prove.

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« Reply #27 on: January 27, 2005, 12:04:44 am »
The monsters in CT that use magic/CT elements generally fall into one of the following two categories:

1. Somehow related to Zeal. The place is flooded with elemental energy, it's not surprising that it would seep into monsters. It might mutate them and allow them to harness it.

2. Mystics. Mystics are somewhat sentient, and they can use CT magic naturally.

This is unlike CC where the common lizards you find around the beach can harness elements.

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« Reply #28 on: January 27, 2005, 12:17:36 am »
Quote from: Leebot
The monsters in CT that use magic/CT elements generally fall into one of the following two categories:

1. Somehow related to Zeal. The place is flooded with elemental energy, it's not surprising that it would seep into monsters. It might mutate them and allow them to harness it.

2. Mystics. Mystics are somewhat sentient, and they can use CT magic naturally.

This is unlike CC where the common lizards you find around the beach can harness elements.

As I recall (correct me if i'm wrong), humans can use magic because of the evolutionary effects brought upon us by Lavos. I dont remember other monsters being affected by the FF or hearing anything similar.
Also  i have a thought: the elements in chrono cross are interchangable between characters, however their special skills are not. Using your example of forks and teeth from earlier, isnt it more natural to unlock an ability inside of you rather than use a tool from the outside? You can buy sell and trade elements, but those inner abilities are yours and yours alone. Perhaps some of those skills, such a Luminaire and ForeverZero, are magic based only on the CT elements. As for the TD using CC elements, I'm not sure how to explain that, other than it being a game mechanic, but Lavos uses CT elements. Magic based on CT elements seem to emphasize individuality. Then again, i could always be wrong.

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« Reply #29 on: January 27, 2005, 02:43:04 am »
Quote from: Leebot
Quote from: GrayLensman
I don't think Chrono Cross breaks continuity with Chrono Trigger. Dragonian Elements were introduced as part of the story, not a purely game play mechanism. If there is no continuity between the games, then this discussion is pointless.

I once again raise the point that the Time Devourer (Lavos) uses CC Elements. If, as your theory goes, CC Elements are purely artificial technology, then how did he gain access to them in the DBT? Also, how come every monster in the game is able to use them, plus has their own stockpile?

Quote
The Dragon Gods were originally a singular plasma life-form... ...A living accumulation of
the planet's energy! Originally it was a biological machine used to control the powers
of nature in the future society of the Reptites. In order to control the natural energy
itself, FATE divided the one Dragon God entity up into 6 weaker plasma life-forms...
Then scattered them across the land and sealed them away. Their dragon-like appearance
are just pseudo-guises... ...Temporary forms they take so that they can appear in this
dimension.

Belthasar: That thing... the "Dragon God"... is only a quasi-existence... ...A
temporary form that the real Dragon God uses in order to appear within this dimension.
The actual Dragon God was consumed long ago, in the distant past... Integrated by the
entity known as Lavos in a time on the other side of the dimensional darkness.

The Dragon God was integrated into the Time Devourer, so it stands to reason that it can use Elements.

El Nido is a small artificial archipelago with an isolated population.  Elements are clearly abundant.  The wildlife had thousands of years to adapt to using Elements.  I wouldn't be surprised if the creatures were engineered to use Elements by FATE or the Dragonians.

Quote from: Leebot
Now, if CC Elements are natural, it makes sense that animals would have evolved to use them. In fact, this is the point that leads me most strongly to believe that CC Elements are the natural form of magic, while CT magic (which no monsters use) is more artificial.

There is some confusion about terminology.

Magical Elements: four fundamental forces of the Chrono universe (says Spekkio).  Natural in that they are definitely physical properties of the universe.  Numerous living things and machines have abilities and resistances based on the elements.

Magic: a technique to harness the power of the elements to produce various effects.  Its use is limited to living things with an innate ability.  Not natural because magical ability was probably introduced by Lavos.

Dragonian Elemental Colors: a classification system of elemental effects based on the natural energy of the planet.  Natural, because all entities have an innate elemental color.

Dragonian Elements: equipable artifacts which can produce an elemental effect.  Natural?  We're not sure how they are manufactured (or what they look like), but they are obviously related to the Dragon Gods.  Elements do not represent an innate ability of living things to harness natural energy.

Quote from: Leebot
Quote from: GrayLensman
The magical elements of CT absolutely do exist. The magical elements are real physical forces which can be harnessed to produce various effects in the Chrono universe. The power of the elements may be easily demonstrated. The Aristotelean elements constitute a flawed model to describe nature. Fire, Air, Water and Earth are not actual physical properties.

Well, the Aristotelean elements do exist, just not in the elemental way he theorized. This could be analogous to the CT elements, they do exist in the CT universe, but they're not quite as elemental as Spekkio believes.

OK.  Air is a mixture of gases, Fire is a combination of gas, particles, heat and light produced by a chemical reaction.  Water is a chemical substance in liquid form.  Earth is a mixture of chemical substances in solid form.  Is anything actually made up of these components?

Quote from: Leebot
Quote from: GrayLensman
This is uncalled for. I know perfectly well what the scientific method is. You did change your hypothesis. You originally stated that the magical elements were created by Lavos.

I call 'em as I see 'em. Never enter a scientific discussion unprepared to bend.

Now, you seem to have trouble differentiating a hypothesis from a theory.

A hypothesis is a proposition made at the beginning of an investigation. One intends to verify whether the hypothesis is accurate by gathering evidence.

A theory is a proposition made after heavy analysis in an attempt to explain reality. Theories change often, and I never set my theories in stone.

Now see here, I complained because you were making it difficult to follow your argument.  There is no reason to insult my intelligence.  I might add that this is not a scientific investigation because there is no way to test our predictions through experimentation.  We are analyzing a creative work using logic.

Quote from: Leebot
Then we get into a bit of confusion about whether we're talking about the CC Elements or CT elements...

What I meant by saying that the CT elements are artificial is that these elements were created as a basis for CT-type magic, and are not purely natural as the CC colors are.

My discussion of Lavos enabling the CT magic and stuff is just a possible explanation of why we don't see CC-style magic in CT. We can use CT-magic at any point as the basic CC-elements permeate the world at any point in the timeline, and these are the true building blocks needed for any form of magic.

Who "created" the magical elements?

Dragonian Elemental usage involves activating an equipable artifact.  These devices are so widespread in El Nido that nearly every entity you encounter can use them.

Quote from: Leebot
Now: Spekkio. This analysis depends heavily on what his true nature is. If we take him to be...

A creation of Gaspar: He'd know no more about magic than Gaspar, who came from the age of Lavos-powered magic. It would make sense that Gaspar would have "programmed" his theories on magic into Spekkio, right or wrong.

Magic is powered by the elements.  The Mammon Machine is the only magical connection to Lavos, and before it was constructed, the Zealians used the Sun Stone's energy.

Quote
The Queen has sealed the Elemental
Weapons in the north palace.

You can see its entrance on the
northern continent, but no one is
allowed there.

Quote
Combine the ancient Rainbow Shell and
the Sun Stone to create incredible
weapons and items.

But now, only the Guru of Life has the
skill.
Elemental power usage is forbidden.

Quote
That's the Sun Keep you see on the
southern continent. A Sun Stone, once
the source of this world's power, was
kept there.

But when we began using our new
energy source, it was sealed up just
like the north palace.

They claim we don't need the energy
of this tired, old planet.

Quote
Zeal's advances stem from a new
energy source. Its power surpasses
that of the elements.

Quote from: Leebot
The embodiment of CT magic: His perception of the universe would be limited entirely to the CT elements. He doesn't notice--and isn't harmed by--Crono's sword as it isn't made of the CT elements. Without delving too much into the metaphysical, if he only knows the elements as the universe, he would say that everything is made of the elements.

If Spekkio's perception were this limited, how could he even interact with the time travelers?  I don't believe that Spekkio could be this stupid.  You are also assuming that the Magical Elements are not physical components of the universe.

Quote from: Leebot
A true god: Everything he says is fact. Well, unless he's capricious or just crazy, and would lie on purpose. Maybe even a god's knowledge is limited.

A nu: Who the hell knows what's up with nus.


There really is no reason to assume Spekkio is incorrect.  Where do the Dragon Gods stae that the six elements are the basis for reality?