Does the DBT exist as a 0th dimension?

[Zaulche]

I originally read this in the thread The Pendant and the Telepod but did not want to comment there since it was off topic. It was noted in the thread that another thread had been started dealing with some of these issues but I was unable to find it, so I apologize in advance if this topic has already been discussed.

In the thread mentioned above the following was stated:

Dimension-0 better fits as a geometric point, a location lacking depth, width, and length but still existing. When one doesn't consider time to be the 4th dimension (especially as it would be the only dimension to necessitate movement), it gets placed on a separate dimensional scale. Instead of time being the 4th dimension, we could say that there are 3 (or more) spatial dimensions and 1 (or more) temporal dimensions.

The DBT could exist entirely on the spatial dimensional scale and not the temporal dimensional scale; however that causes a problem for Time Bastard Theory (which doesn't mean either theory is inherently wrong, but that they are in conflict); if the DBT helps preserve matter (so that it is neither created nor destroyed due to Time Travel causing new time lines), it would seemingly have no appreciable length, width, depth, etc. The only thing that would exist there is information (as likewise, information cannot be destoryed; see the Information Paradox). This is curious as it would seemingly not exist on either dimensional scale then (though possibly still being a geometric point, yet if it is a geometric point containing only information, it would be quite similar to a black hole itself).

Would this mean that the DBT could be viewed as a 0th dimensional existence? Are Black Holes considered 0th dimensional objects? I never thought of either as such, but it would seem to fit the description, at least at face value. Is there more to what makes up a 0th dimension than what has already been mentioned?

[V_Translanka]

Since the DBT "exists" (stretching it's definition, really) beyond time, it's really more of a -0 dimension...No, not really, but you see how stupid it is to just affix something that really doesn't belong on a zero?

0th dimension looks and sound stupid, sorry...

[Thought]

Sort of like the Zeroth Law of Robotics. You can blame Asimov, but the 0th (0st? 0nd? 0rd?) dimension is an actual physics concept. See Zero-Dimension Space or a gemetric point.

[Zaulche]

0th dimension looks and sound stupid, sorry...

No need to be sorry. I understand if the label itself sounds silly, I was more referring to the concept that the label identifies.

Perhaps there is another label we can give to the 0D concept. There are already a lot of acronyms floating around the site, one more would probably not hurt.

Idrian10, I had trouble understanding what you were trying to say. Would you care explain it differently or take another stab at it altogether?

[MagilsugaM]

Since the DBT "exists" (stretching it's definition, really) beyond time, it's really more of a -0 dimension...No, not really, but you see how stupid it is to just affix something that really doesn't belong on a zero?

0th dimension looks and sound stupid, sorry...

The DBT is a Tesseract, the tesseract is a 4th dimensional cube and is one inside another:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesseract
 so I supose that DBT is inside or aoutside the dimentions.

But I am not really sure...

[Zaulche]

Idrian10, thanks, I understood that more. It is something to think about. I'll give a more thoughtful reply after I dwell on it.

MagilsugaM, How do you know for certain that the DBT is a tesseract? While I find the possibility as intriguing as 0d space, I thought what exactly it is was still under discussion. Perhaps I missed something vital in the previous discussion about this.

[Thought]

The DBT is a Tesseract, the tesseract is a 4th dimensional cube and is one inside another:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesseract
 so I supose that DBT is inside or aoutside the dimentions.

Perhaps I missed it, but how do we know the DBT is a tesseract?

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

We DON'T know that it's a Tessaract, but that's been a popular Chrono theory.  I think it was YOU, Thought, that proposed it was counter-time?  Since having read that theory I've been quite keen to the concept of Counter-Time being some form of counter-time.  It would make sense considering the Counter-Time Experiment and some of the qualifying physics that seem to exist in the Chronoverse.

However, I don't know as much about that as some, so I allow it to be debated if need be.

My only question with the DBT as counter-time is how would anything EXIST and SURVIVE in Counter-Time?

[Thought]

We DON'T know that it's a Tessaract, but that's been a popular Chrono theory.  I think it was YOU, Thought, that proposed it was counter-time?

Really? Well, it wouldn't be the first time I've proposed something only to come to the exact opposite conclusion later and not remember ever having thought differently. It makes for some interesting arguments with my friends, sometimes. "Why in the world would you think that?" "Me? You were the one who suggested it!" "Really? Well then, why in the world did I think that?"

But so the DBT may or may not be a Tessaract... actually, looking at the game script, we really know almost nothing about the DBT. It is only called the "Darkness Beyond Time" once (by ghost Marle); it is usually termed as being beyond the "dimensional void" or on the other side of the "dimensional darkness" by Belthasar (and I think those are the only two people who even mention it). Perhaps we've fundamentally misunderstood what the DBT is? This might require an intensive and exhausting analysis of the game script, interviews, and old threads.

... I don't suppose you also remember what I (or whoever) meant by it being "counter-time"? Is counter-time being used as a specific object or form of energy? Or what thread this was in? I'm interested in seeing what I said about it, and what other's said.

My only question with the DBT as counter-time is how would anything EXIST and SURVIVE in Counter-Time?

Well, if we take the phrase "counter-time" at literal face value, it is a simple matter of surviving and existing. There is no reason (that I am aware of at least) that the arrow of time has to point in one direction only; that it has to point "forward." If it pointed backwards, well things would just have an origin in the future and a demise in the past, one would grow younger with age, etc. Strange from our perspective, but it would appear, internally, exactly like our direction of time… just… not.

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Well then maybe it WASN'T you, Though, hahaha...

I will try to find that thread information sometime soon.

[MagilsugaM]

That theory, I read it in the Chrono wiki. But it wasn't from Thought.

[dankun]

Here...

http://www.chronocompendium.com/Forums/index.php/topic,2299.0.html

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Thanks, dankun.  Now I want people to read it and think about it. 

That includes, you, Thought!

[Thought]

Thanks, dankun.  Now I want people to read it and think about it. 

That includes, you, Thought!

Sir! Yes, Sir!

Ah, the good ol PT&DT article. I am still not sure if I correctly understand TTI, Time Bastard, or if I even agree with either. It is unfortunately that Mr. Nerd Hair never came back after that one post; it was quite interesting. So... what was the question again?

Oh yes.

1) Is the DBT essentially a geometric point (a 0th dimension, having no length, width, depth, timeth, dimensionth, etc)?
2) Is the DBT a tesseract (which would probably negate it being a geometric point)?

Of course, these are really just particular manifestations of a larger, metaquestion:

What is the Darkness Beyond Time?

That is the question that is like a splinter in our minds, driving us mad.

Anywho, Mr. Hair there supposed that the DBT is just Time Error Past. A very interesting theory, particular as it seems to fit in well with the Counter Time experiment. However, he was incorrect in that in order to travel into Time Error past one would need to suppose a higher dimension, a Time Error-Error. One of the great mysteries of time is why it only flows in one direction. There is no reason for it; one should be able to travel in both directions along a dimensional axis (either hither and thither for length, left or right for width, up or down for depth, ana or kata for spissitude, etc).

To note... essentially, Serge is a dreg from the DBT as well (as least, when he is in Another World). He's dead and buried, but alive and well there.

However, it would seem that the DBT can't just be time error past, see:

   History is composed of
   choices and divergences.
   Each choice you make
   creates a new world and
   brings forth a new future.
   But at the same time,
   you're eliminating a
   different future with the
   choices you didn't make.

   A future denied of all
   existence because of a
   change in the past...
   A future that was destroyed
   even before it was born
   rests here...condensed
   into the Dead Sea.

   At that very moment,
   this whole future time
   axis ceased to exist.

It isn't that the Apocalypse future merely exists on an unperceivable time-error coordinate, it is that it doesn't exist at all (yet it is existing, which is a bit of a conundrum).

But as I said in a prior post, our understanding of the Darkness Beyond Time is very limited and potentially flawed.

Let see, what do we have from the script that might refer to the DBT (to note, the name "Darkness Beyond Time" is only used once):

   This lost future is about to
   disappear into the darkness
   beyond the dimensions again...
   You have no time to spare.
   You must leave here
   immediately!
   Quick...go!

   The actual Dragon God
   was consumed long ago,
   in the distant past...
   Integrated by the entity
   known as Lavos in a time
   on the other side of the
   dimensional darkness.

   The Devourer of Time
   is a new life-form...
   Born out of the fusion of a
   life-form from this planet with
   Lavos, who nests on the far
   side of the dimensional void.

   In the darkness that exists
   on the other side of time,
   Schala has been integrated
   with the Devourer of Time!

   A new species is about to be
   born on this planet -- an
   alien life-form even more
   evolved than the old Lavos!
   At the darkness beyond time,
   the weakened Schala came under
   the influence of Lavos, and
   the two became one entity.

   The final gate, which leads
   to the darkness of time...
   Looks like this is finally it...

Note, every single character says almost the exact same thing when you access that final gate; they all call it the "darkness of time," not "the Darkness Beyond Time." Specifically, I've confirmed that this is said by: Guile, Norris, Nikki, Viper, Riddel, Karsh, Zoah, Marcy, Korcha, Luccia, Razzly, Zappa, Orcha, Radius, Fargo, Macha, Glenn, Leena, Miki, Janice, Sprigg, Draggy, Starky, Mojo/y, Turnip, NeoFio, Greco, Skelly, Funguy, Irenes, Mel, Leah, Van, Sneff, Steena, Doc, Grobyc, Pierre, Orlha, Pip, and of course, Kid. The only one who doesn't call it the Darkness of Time is Poshul.  Even the system itself calls is the "Darkness of Time" when it gives you a choice to enter or not.

So, the "DBT" (which seems to be a rather odd name to call it, given that the game doesn't call it that very often) seems to be a "darkness" that is "beyond the dimensions," it is a place on the "other side of the dimensional darkness" and on the far side of the "dimensional void," and it is a "darkness" that exists on the other side of "time."

Well, as the "darkness" aspect of the DBT is fairly constant, a few quotes about “Darkness” being something tangible might be called for:

   The mist of the sea
   is an invitation to the dark...
   Embracing the abyssmal darkness,
   where the lost souls gather...

   Hmmm...
   Are you really a human who does
   not exist in this world...?
   You are now drifting between
   the boundaries of life and
   death...
   You are too young to be taken
   into the arms of darkness.

   Romana, you are still too
   young to take on such a
   task!
   The spirits are always
   looking for a chance to
   draw the living into the
   darkness!

   I am the sister of Ghetz...
   A small thing now and then
   won't get me down.
   This time, you must save
   this one from the darkness...
   I think Ghetz desires that, also.

   Yes, I was once possessed
   by the '"darkness"'...
   Back then, I entered the ring
   and did as I pleased to fulfill
   my appetite for destruction.

   I know I lost my sanity
   because of that sword...
   But I must admit, the sword
   is not entirely to blame.
   I was jealous of Garai...
   I wanted to be the better
   swordsman.
   The once renowned Masamune...
   '"The Holy Sword That
   Conquered Darkness."'
   Could it be merely a
   tool for murder...?

While these quotes don't specifically refer to the DBT, it seems that both the DBT and these quotes are referring to a darkness that exists beyond normal reality. One will note that all such lines refer basically to death and destruction, the essence of the Time Devourer (and indeed, Lavos).

A few lines regarding Schala actually might give us a good idea of where the DBT is (emphasis added):

   The true beginning was during
   the destruction of the ancient
   Kingdom of Zeal!
   As the palace collapsed around
   her, Princess Schala was sucked
   into a dimensional vortex along
   with the Lavos Mammon Machine.
   Schala and Lavos became unified
   into one even more powerful
   entity that would evolve into
   the Devourer of Time.
   Filled with the hatred and
   sadness of Lavos, half of
   Schala's mind became set on
   destroying all of existence.
   Yet at the same time, the
   other half of her mind
   desired to save the universe
   and to be rescued herself.
   As Schala fell through the
   time gate in this condition,
   she heard your crying
   echoing through time...

"As"! As Schala fell through the gate, Lavos began absorbing her. Yet, Lavos began absorbing her in the DBT. If both are true, then it is the space between a gate's entry point and exit point that is the DBT (but as the gates don't travel any physical distance, that space isn't a proper dimension).

This certainly fits with the DBT being "beyond time;" that corridor doesn't exist in any proper time, not even the End of Time (and possibly not even Time Error applies properly there). It is also the perfect "0th" dimension, as the Chronopolis scientists talk about the Time Egg using a gravitational singularity to connect two points in time. What is a gravitational singularity but a geometric (0th dimension) point?

Now, because I can, does everyone recall what Marle said, in Chrono Trigger, after she returns from being removed from time? Either the Entity did it or the grand father paradox did it, but she was removed from the normal flow of time (which presumably means, she was sent to the DBT). She compared that “Darkness” to death!

But anywho, that is just my current interpretation of the quotes regarding the "DBT" based off the quotes. What are other people's interpretations?

[Boo the Gentleman Caller]

Gosh, Thought, I love you.

So in essence the DBT is absolutely nothing.

Of course, I have this theory that involves the Crypts of Time and whatnot, but thats totally non-canon and moreso ties in with the fangame/fanfiction I have in mind.

In Phillip Pullman's His Dark Materials trilogy he talks about the 'space' between worlds (dimensions) and the spectre-like beings that exist there.  I sort of see the DBT in a similar light.  Reading my post won't make sense, though.  You have to have read the books to understand what I'm talking about.