Author Topic: Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development  (Read 44042 times)

Chrono'99

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #570 on: December 18, 2005, 04:14:39 pm »
I agree that it's beautiful... But (do I always play the devil's advocate? :wink: ) be careful not to mistake Magus with someone that you would like him to be. Let's face it, Magus was not royal, poetic, prince-like in the CT Japanese version, he was simply a real damn bastard. It has been noted many times by people who knows Japanese. Coincidently, Hyena 20 wrote something about that just a week ago at GameFAQs. Here's the post:
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From: Hyena 20 | Posted: 12/13/2005 1:13:40 PM | Message Detail
Oh, and he's a bit more of a jerk in the Japanese version. A quick rundown.

*SPOILERS*

Magus's personality is quite toned down by Woolsley, and made a bit more comical.
Rather than listing paragraph after paragraph of some of the differences, I'll just go through a list of dialogue differences between the original and US versions:

*His language is more blunt and vulgar in general. I don't know how Chrono and co. can stand him because he insults them with damn near every statement he makes and just generally acts extremely rude. Not as rude as Diisu/Bleu in Breath of Fire, but close enough (I don't think I've ever encountered a videogame character more rude and arrogant than Diisu.)

*Instead of saying "He's history, play with fire and you get burned!", he says "He's dead! The weak die like insects!"

*If he's in a good mood, he'll call you say-- "damned *person*", "lowly *person", (aitsu) "woman", "boy", or "you" are also adequate ways to translate this. If he's in a bad mood, he'll call you "son-of-a-*****", "*****", "*****", "bastard", etc. (kisama)

*In the US translation, Magus doesn't answer Ozzie's question on why he broke his promise to help him; instead he just says he hears the reaper. In the original version, he replies that "Hmmph, I only did it for the power", then callously tells him that he hears the sound of the black wind blowing around him.

*Magus refers to the Black Wind a lot more. Instead of saying "Unimaginable is the power of Lavos, anyone who dares oppose him meets certain doom", he says "So mighty is Lavos's power that the Black-Death-Wind blows around any who stand against him." He also refers to the Black Wind rather than the reaper when speaking to Ozzie.
What is the Black Wind?
The Black Wind is death.
Schala, Masa, and Mune refer to it as the 'Black Energy'.

*Before the fight with Lavos, Magus says "We're like cattle waiting to be slaughtered... All humans... and all living things". In the Japanese version, he says "We are all Lavos's produce (something to be harvested or slaughtered). All humans, no, all living things". This is an important sentence that highlights much of Magus's personality, views, and past. He first says humans but then corrects himself, because of his belief that all creatures (or at least all sentient ones) are equal.
Consider how his past must have been. As a Zealian, he had been taught that the Mystics were evil demons that eat children and do all sorts of terrible things. Then he is thrown into 600AD where he is captured by Mystics. Gradually he realizes that everything he was taught about them was a lie. Even more, the Mystics most likely believe all the same things about humans that humans believe about them. This would give Magus a rather jaded outlook, and indeed there are signs of just that. In the Magus vs. Frog ending, Magus says that "except for you and me (him and Frog), everyone still alive is a cockroach (lowly, weak, trash)." This ending is interesting because it shows that though Magus doesn't like Frog, a part of him also respects him. Perhaps it is because Frog, unlike most of the humans of 600AD, actually view the Mystics as people.

*Janus is NOT Schala's step-brother. This was a mistranslation. In the Japanese version, the same Zealian says that Janus is Schala's 'little brother' and 'of full royal blood'.
---
Hera is like the Greco-Roman pantheon/mythology version of Hillary Clinton.
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Actually, Magus really makes me think about Kid, except that he's male and more powerful (thanks to magic). In CC, the "General Kid" ending does show how "bad" Kid could become if she was as strong as Magus. So, when I think about the idea of a poetic Magus... I dunno.

Of course, the "problem" is that RD portrays Magil as a quite polite and calm person (the only thing he shares with the CT Magus would be his cold blood I guess). So... I guess Daniel's version of Magus could be plausible, in a way. Maybe poetic, tragic, but still kind of bad and "dirty" (not bright and all-glorious). Janus must have had a good and complete education in Zeal in fact. In any case, I hope the change from the CT Magus to the RD-like Magus would be progressive and slow during the whole game, not a sudden change before the end of the game (like Kefka suddenly turning from an impolite clown to a philosopher god...).

...and anyway, it's just my personal opinion. I actually agree with this poetic Magus proposition, I just imagine it being progressive instead of a sudden, right-before-the-ending apotheotic enlightenment.

GrayLensman

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #571 on: December 18, 2005, 06:12:34 pm »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Though it had ever been his way to speak rashly and in pride, such things had now departed from him forever. The dark sorcerer was no more, for he was robed in garments of shimmering white, traced with weavings of gold and silver that reflected the sheen of the sun. He seemed as a cloud behind which the sun hides, yet even as the heavenly light burns at its verges, and flames from behind in hidden glory, his power could not be fully veiled. Truly here was the last prince and lord of Zeal, and his words were as the wisdom that brings low all foolishness. His countenance bore none of the rage, neither the hate nor pain that it had carried in all the long years of his life before. A joyous peace had descended upon his mind, and it shone like a starfire in his eyes. He was his true self once again, such as he had not been since before his memory could recall.


That is very good, but I have a minor complaint.  I don't see Janus ever wearing white.  I would prefer he wear princely robes, as does Magil, or a  plain grey or black habbit.

Hadriel

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« Reply #572 on: December 18, 2005, 07:05:20 pm »
I assure you, it's quite progressive.  At first, he only respects the crew for their power; the humanistic objections are at the back of his mind, though.  After CT, he'd achieved vengeance upon Lavos, removing him from his dark throne.  All that remained is for him to find Schala.  With this accomplished, his nature as an angry individual is no longer necessary.  Lavos' growth reflects his, as he's the closest to the beast out of any of them.  Lavos is one of the oldest beings in the entire universe, having evolved within the first instant of the universe's existence.  Zurvan is the spiritual manifestation of Time itself; the Tesseract is a part of it.  Due to space's compressed nature at this point, time itself was a far more chaotic, uncertain entity than it is now, and many paradoxes akin to the Time Crash were manifest in the universe, easily perceptible to any who were around to see them.  By the quirks in probability inherent in the physically odd setup of a birthing universe, Lavos' race was allowed to exist, and to perceive time's chaos intuitively, rather than mathematically as we can perceive possibilities.  With this skill, they quickly gained knowledge and evolved to a godlike state as a virtual spawn of the stars themselves.  In essence, Lavos is equivalent to Adam, being one born of Zurvan in an effort to achieve universal balance.  The paradise of time compression was Eden for his race, which in accordance with their heightened perception, grew to prize knowledge above all else.  They developed a sort of physical and spiritual hive mind for this purpose, and crafted great empires among the stars before any other lifeforms were even a blink in causality.  After billions of years, other life began to take shape, and the people of Lavos were sympathetic to them, wishing for all life to join in their paradise of knowledge.  However, the form of behavioral and moral philosophy that comes with that is all that they had ever known; when many of his race's experimentations with other worlds ended in disaster, as well as the races of those worlds themselves, Lavos became convinced that sin was the true nature of all life, and that the universe itself was afflicted with immorality.  From this arose his desire to utterly remake it.  The problem with this is that by carrying out his plan, he would become the ultimate murderer; derangement would seize his mind and soul, and the universe spawned from him would be hell in the purest sense of the word, a place of torment and death beyond all imagining.  Magus' intended revenge upon Lavos is similar; his concept of reality was shattered by the utter catastrophe that Lavos visited upon Zeal, the greatest sons of Earth, as what was then the latest murder in a vicious cycle of death.  Janus' only wish is to achieve his perception of justice by killing Lavos.  And, like Lavos, he'll utterly destroy anyone that stands in his way, but again, like the beast, he didn't stop to think what kind of a person he'd be after the fact, or that good people might get caught in the crossfire.  This is where he starts out after CT, and his interactions with Schala and Glenn develop this aspect of his character.

Traveling back to the beginning of Gaia could easily serve the purpose of allowing his character to come full-circle.  The people of Lavos would be debating what to do with Earth at that time, and they'd likely interfere on behalf of the team in the stages leading up to the final battle, anyway.  That bit of dialogue sounds perfect for Lucca or Marle to relate as he's telling them the tale.

As for Janus' attire, whoever can draw the most convincing picture or put together the l33test sprite gets it.

Janus Zeal

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #573 on: December 18, 2005, 08:41:09 pm »
If we're going to go forward with a purified Janus, perhaps we could look to angelic clothing?

http://www.aocc.org/angel.jpg

A golden cloak perhaps?

I like the idea of a Janus "robed in garments of shimmering white, traced with weavings of gold and silver ", I just don't know how to implement it.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #574 on: December 18, 2005, 09:33:11 pm »
Quote from: Hadriel
I assure you, it's quite progressive....As for Janus' attire, whoever can draw the most convincing picture or put together the l33test sprite gets it.


Hmmm... alright, but I just figured that the grandeur of speaking before Lavos' people would be matchless in final impact - those who are mightiest, yet ignorant of this great tale. And, through that, showing Janus as a peer could then be representative of how Zeal in its glory could have been, had it endured. But however you wish it. And in so far as his character goes, my rationale for a sudden shift comes from his darkness not being a character trait, but rather a lingering curse of sorts, a shadow of Lavos ever-present upon his mind since childhood. As such, once thte cause is removed, it would be like someone awakening from a long sickness... thus a very swift transition indeed. I see it as rather the opposite to the typical classical tragedy idea of a sudden knowledge and decent into sorrow. The difference also lies in story approach. To do it slowly is a fashion of tale-telling that is very character based; swiftly is more focussed on the events and how heroes play a part in them. Naturally for me, I usually work more with the second, though I think it is rather more common for the first to be put into play in most writing.

Oh, and I wasn't speaking out of the blue in speaking of Janus' robes as being white. Doesn't he don those in the second scenario of Radical Dreamers? And, moreover, look at the following picture, which was truly what I was considering in that:

When I said that in my writing, I was considering that, in character design, this was meant to be Janus - though the story abandoned that before it came to fruition, I do think this is the intended later fashion of Janus. He's still got his enigmatic character, he's still black-innate and using shadow magic... but he's different. He's more noble, more regal. His suffering... it's what the Greeks spoke of using the term Pathei Mathos: that wisdom comes through suffering. And his suffering over, he is left with a great deal of wisdom and understanding of things. Free of being chained to the shadows, he is stronger. (and maybe that's it: he's still shadow-magic, and shadowy... but in CT, he is still at their mercy. He is prey to his own arrogance and anger, and as such is a servant to another. But free of them, mastering them, he is no longer a slave, and thus stronger.) Anyway, that's the impression that rendering of Guile gave me. And you notice what it appears as? White robes traced with gold. So, yeah, I wasn't being totally different in thinking of him that way. It seemed to be the way the designers of CC were taking as well.

Hadriel

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« Reply #575 on: December 18, 2005, 10:03:05 pm »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Quote from: Hadriel
I assure you, it's quite progressive....As for Janus' attire, whoever can draw the most convincing picture or put together the l33test sprite gets it.


Hmmm... alright, but I just figured that the grandeur of speaking before Lavos' people would be matchless in final impact - those who are mightiest, yet ignorant of this great tale.


Oh, he's going to speak before Lavos' people.  The party will meet them in the end of the game, and he's going to be the one who relates their predicament and convinces them to lend their powers for the final battle.

Quote
And in so far as his character goes, my rationale for a sudden shift comes from his darkness not being a character trait, but rather a lingering curse of sorts, a shadow of Lavos ever-present upon his mind since childhood. As such, once that cause is removed, it would be like someone awakening from a long sickness... thus a very swift transition indeed.


This would be the case, save that darkness isn't just something that can be pulled out at will to deal with a particular opponent; it becomes an addictive drug when used that way.  Janus is responsible for many deaths by this point in his life; that isn't something so easily shaken away.  It's infected his life and thought processes to the point that it is a character trait, but now that it's no longer needed, and especially after he finds Schala, he has to cope with what would by normal standards be a tolerable existence, and a warlord isn't mentally equipped to do that.  He doesn't fully shed that mind until the end.

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So, yeah, I wasn't being totally different in thinking of him that way. It seemed to be the way the designers of CC were taking as well.


That's an excellent point; Guile was, after all, originally intended to be Janus.  Then they had the bright idea to put everyone in the free world in your party, but something resembling the attire of Magil and Guile would be in order.

Janus Zeal

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« Reply #576 on: December 18, 2005, 10:30:54 pm »
Quote

That's an excellent point; Guile was, after all, originally intended to be Janus.

something resembling the attire of Magil and Guile would be in order.


But at the same time we should make Janus appear powerful, since it is Janus who appears before Lavos' people as the representative of the human race. While the colours of Guile may fit our new version of Janus, let's shy away from Guile's wimpy appearance. The redeemed Janus should show the people of Lavos what heights humanity could have reached, a 'demi-god' if you will.

Chrono'99

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« Reply #577 on: December 19, 2005, 05:31:49 am »
Quote from: Janus Zeal
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That's an excellent point; Guile was, after all, originally intended to be Janus.

something resembling the attire of Magil and Guile would be in order.


But at the same time we should make Janus appear powerful, since it is Janus who appears before Lavos' people as the representative of the human race. While the colours of Guile may fit our new version of Janus, let's shy away from Guile's wimpy appearance. The redeemed Janus should show the people of Lavos what heights humanity could have reached, a 'demi-god' if you will.

Actually, Guile isn't totally what Magil would have been:
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Masato Kato: To let the cat out of the bag, in the early stages of development, Guile was indeed meant to be Magus. In our original plan, the true identity of Guile was supposed to be Magus after the events in Trigger. (At the end of Trigger, Magus [a.k.a. Janus in Trigger and Magil in Radical Dreamers] disappeared into a Time Gate to go searching for his big sister, Schala, who was lost somewhere in time.) However, as the game's development progressed and we decided to use such a huge number of playable characters, we decided not to make him be Magus. We thought it was impossible to portray the relationship between Magus and Schala adequately in this game. So we changed tracks, made the colors of the Magus character design paler, and turned him into Guile, the magician. In a way, it's a pity, as I really would like to have seen the valiant figure of Magus come to life again.

His design was supposed to be a bit darker, so don't worry about Magus ever being wimpy.

Hadriel

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« Reply #578 on: December 20, 2005, 04:50:04 pm »
Wimpy Magus?

I think my computer blew a transistor just posting that.

Anyway, let's see...after all this time, we still need a proper ending.  We can work out the specifics of the El Nido sequence later.  Right now, all we need to do is figure out what happens after they travel back to the beginning of life on Earth.  This would be where they'd meet Lavos' people, and where the final dungeon would be located.  Earlier, we had opted to have a final sequence of fights/puzzles right before the final boss battle; this would act as the final dungeon.  As the team would be taking a trip directly into Zurvan, which is basically the Tesseract save that its timelines are exclusively those which still have a possibility of existing, as opposed to the Tesseract, which is a repository for discarded timelines and entities...I guess that makes the Tesseract the reverse of Zurvan, which literally makes it the ass end of the universe.

As for the final dungeon, it will be composed of settings from CT and CE.  All of the dungeon segments are mandatory, save the Calasperan segment.  If the player opted to save Calasperan, they won't have to go through this segment, which will be beneficial as it's very hard and can be draining on the HP.  Also, they'll gain access to the ultimate weapons.

Also, I had an idea for the game's Colosseum feature and other extras.  A "special cup" unique to CE would definitely be in order.  It'd be something of a "developer's room" in the event that we can't actually fit one in, and several of the fights would be with, well, us, in the form of whatever in-game avatars represent us.  Also, there needs to be an uber-hard optional boss or it wouldn't be an RPG.

Daniel Krispin

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #579 on: December 20, 2005, 05:44:43 pm »
Regarding the portrayal of Zurvan...
I think I've suggested this before, but I'll do it again. I'd suggest something akin to the 'Wood Between the Worlds' in The Magician's Nephew (the first of the Chronicles of Narnia, which ironically begins before Narnia is ever created.) Anyway, it is a place of such peace and repose, and absolute silence, that when the hero of the Magician's Nephew (who is the magician's nephew, come to think of it - and is the Professor in The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe) come there, he for a while forgets who he is, as though all else ever before has just been a dream, and that he has always been in this place. It is a great forest with a peaceful light, and all around are an infinite number of pools of water - each of which is another world. Now, Diggory (that's the Professor) gets the idea to try and jump into another pool, which leads to near disaster, as he ends up in the ancient and dead world of the city of Charn, and brings a certain Queen Jadis back with him to London, and thence to Narnia, but that's a different story. The point is, that feeling of peace and repose that marks that Wood, if you know the story, would I think work in feel perfectly for Zurvan, that Sea of Dreams - and, in some way, in that it encompasses all worlds, holds a similar function. If you don't know the Chronicles of Narnia, I highly suggest you read that chapter Hadriel, if for nothing else than the description so that you can get an idea of the feel.*

Now, personally, I'd be a little wary about going to Zurvan, unless it's perfectly done. Rather, it seems to be one of those things that is best mentioned, but left a mystery. To actually portray it, to fit it into the bounds of sight and sense, makes it lost some of its imagnative grandeur of eternity. But if you do choose to make use of it, I think that such a 'Wood Between the Worlds' approach would be perfect for it.

One more thing - and I know I'm bringing up a lot of points and suggestions... but hey, I'm listed as part of the 'plot' comittee, am I not? I should be doing yet more of this. Whether they're heeded or not doesn't matter, I don't think; I'm just wanting to voice what I wish for consideration. Anyway, about the people of Lavos aiding the team in this all... I'd rather say keep them out of it. The Chrono series is - as much as I'd not be of this philosophy - the glory of humanity, tempered with its downfall and damage to the earth. It is very much humanity-focussed, and to bring in as protagonists or an aid another race is rather counter to its overall theme. As such, I would think that Lavos' race should remain unseen until the very end, and are only shown in something of an epilogue, as I was suggesting. The reason for this is that to have these people come to their aid, or at least asked to help, is what would be expected. After all, I think the standard thing one playing would think is: these powerful beings exist? Aha! So they're going to try and get them to help for the good of all the worlds. It's what's expected in an RPG. I know that's what I would expect, and to do so would be treading expected ground. They'd then be rather a deus ex machina or, at least, a possible one - in one's mind they would always be a last resort, and in any grievous battle the thought is always: 'oh, I may lose here, but maybe at the last moment the Lavoses will come in and help'. To keep them seperate makes the consequences of the battle far more dire. There are no deus ex machinas waiting in the wings. It is only the heroes again Lavos... which is what Chrono has always been about. So what if they're only purpose in the story is to wonder at what has been accomplished apart from their aid? It would certainly be unique. The trick is to not make them arrogant, or condescending, or in any way haughty (like, say, the Q are in Star Trek.) But they are, in some measure, a race of philosophers. So everything else happens, and then at the end, when the victories are accomplished, their emmisarries come, all too late, saying that they have only now heard rumours of these great turmoils and wars, and wish to know what this is that is chancing in the world. At that, Janus could be the herald of humanity, the one to tell the tales (though, truthfully, Schala might be perhaps the better one - but she is lost at that time) before that ancient race, who weep for the bitter sufferings. Their purpose, then, has become not integral to the plot of the story, but more of a device by which the tale, even at the moment of closure, passes into instant legend, even before the eyes of those who themselves are legend. Do you see what I'm saying? That, I think, would be the best way to make use of Lavos' people: as the listeners to a great story, but to have no direct part - or even knowledge - of any of it before the end. It would also make them as a whole seem rather more tragic, that in their ignorance they did not know this, like some chorus of an old tragedy sitting at home, only to have the messenger arrive and give accounting of the fall of armies in the distant battlefields.

So, to sum it up: I would suggest Zurvan to be a place of simple peace wherin all timelines converge or what not, al la The Wood Between the Worlds; and that Lavos' people have no direct hand or appearance at all until the end, wherein they act as listeners only, putting the story intantly into the feel of legend, rather than actings as a second hand or some chancing theos ek makhinas.

So, what think you?

*Note: the following is an excerpt from the Chronicles of Narnia about the Wood Between the Worlds:
The trees grew close together and were so leafy that he could get no glimpse of the sky. All the light was green light that came through the leaves: but there must have been a very strong sun overhead, for this green daylight was bright and warm.

It was the quietest wood you could possibly imagine. There were no birds, no insects, no animals, and no wind. You could almost feel the trees growing ...You could almost feel the the trees drinking up the water with their roots. This wood was very much alive. When he tried to describe it afterwards Digory always said, 'It was a rich place: as rich as plumcake'.

"No, I don't believe this wood is a world at all. I think it's just a sort of in-between place."

"And of course that explains everything, " he said. "That's why it is so quiet and sleepy here. Nothing ever happens here. Like at home. It's in the houses that people talk, and do things, and have meals. Nothing goes on in the in-between places, behind the walls and above the ceilings and under the floor, or in our own tunnel. But when you come out of our tunnel you may find yourself in any house. I think we can get out of this place into jolly well Anywhere! We don't need to jump back into the same pool we came up by. Or not just yet."

"The Wood Between the Worlds," said Polly dreamily. "It sounds rather nice."

CS Lewis' descrpition of that seems very fitting for Zurvan in my mind.

Hadriel

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« Reply #580 on: December 20, 2005, 09:32:20 pm »
Being able to actually contact the people of Lavos would in a way be its own proof of humanity's worthiness as candidates for their "paradise of knowledge," much as the people of Vulcan weren't interested in Earth until Zefram Cochrane made his warp flight.  Obviously, the people of Lavos stand countless light-years above the Vulcans, and almost any other race one could think of.  They aren't like the Q, however.  The Q are not nearly so powerful as the average person has been led to believe.  For one thing, it's been fairly well proven that their power is the result of advanced technology rather than innate ability, and Q (the one played by John DeLancie, to avoid confusion) has been outwitted several times by the crew of both the Enterprise and the Voyager.  And when you get outwitted by a crew like Voyager, that's saying something.  I've sneezed boogers that could match wits with some of them; they ain't bright.

...did I mention that one episode where they miraculously escaped a black hole and thus broke nearly every law of physics that I know of and probably a bunch of them that I don't?

Anyway, Zurvan itself will have very limited "screen time" so as to maintain the mystery; only the final phase of the final boss battle would actually be fought there.  Of course, Crono and Marle have to die in the ending, Robo has to become infused into FATE, and Schala has to be lost to the darkness of time.  We already know the fate of Lucca; she has to return to her own time, and presumably Glenn would, as well.  This leaves us but to decide Janus' fate, which will involve searching for Schala.  I guess he'd end up staying with Belthasar.  I think it'd be cool if he ended up helping Belthasar plan the events of Chrono Cross.  I mean, no one brain could possibly put together all the minutiae of that plan, unless they're Lavos.  It required an incredible knowledge of engineering, physics, mathematics, history, and just plain old balls.  It'd also be rather fitting if he helped, both in terms of his personality and his destiny.

Any thoughts on superbosses?  Maybe another one of Lavos' people?  I'd rather not shoehorn in Omega Weapon, because that wouldn't make a lot of sense.

Finally, I think I've thought of a scheme that allows for Lavos' people to aid the team without acting as deus ex machinas, at least not in the conventional sense.  It involves the final boss battle, which solves two problems at once, like so:

With the Frozen Flame in captivity in Chronopolis, the only pawn that Lavos has is King Zeal.  As long as the Frozen Flame exists, his life force will continue to be sustained.  Basically, they've got to kill him manually, or remove Lavos' hold on his mind in order to save the planet.  King Zeal's objective in the past will be to destroy the nascent life force of Gaia, and in order to do this he'll need to get far enough down into the planet to actually access its soul.  Within the context of Chrono, lifeforms that are not yet born are mere dreams in the sea of Zurvan.  As the planet is "incubating," it's trapped in something of a dream state.  Entering this dream state would be done in a similar fashion to using technology to hook someone's brain up and enter their dreams, but on a much larger scale.  If one entered this dream, they would in effect be inside the planet's soul, and from there they could easily destroy it.  However, he'll need the actual power to destroy it, as well as to get there in the first place; his labs have cooked up a crazy soul-eating bioweapon based on Lavos himself for that purpose.  Lavos can absorb souls, as demonstrated by both his presence after he landed on Earth and his union with Schala in Chrono Cross.  But, as Lavos isn't around to work his evil magic, King Zeal's labs have coughed up a bioweapon suitable for the task.  The resemblance shows; it's going to be the ugliest, vilest creature any of us can think of, both physically and morally.  

To this end, I suppose the first part of the final dungeon might resemble Final Fantasy VII in its form, because they're going inside the planet, but its latter parts would be progressively odder because of the nature of their mission, which requires the team to enter the planet's soul as well.  Once they reach the periphery of Gaia, I propose a "seal" mechanism that King Zeal would implement to keep the team out.  This would not be unlike Ganon's Tower in Ocarina of Time, where Link had to release six seals, one for each elemental power, in order to disable the shield blocking the way to Ganondorf's throne room.  In this case, the seals would not be for each element, but would instead be representative of a different Chrono setting.  This would accommodate the Calasperan setup.  Once the final seal is broken, the gateway to the altar of Lavos would be open, where King Zeal would be activating the bioweapon and preparing to sacrifice the soul of the entire planet to the Beast.  The problem, of course, would be actually getting to the seals, which is where Lavos' people could come in.  None of Belthasar's technology has the power to do this, and neither does any other technology of the year 2302.  It can only access the spirit plane in a very roundabout way; that of traveling through time.  Lavos' people would naturally be sympathetic to the plight of the Earthlings; their goal was to get worlds to grow and thrive, and Lavos is interfering in this process by having his minions effectively destroy the planet before it's even born; basically, he's violating the Prime Directive.  However, they wouldn't simply do the job for the heroes, either; that would be just as much of an interference...that and they don't know whether they're strong enough to beat him in all his hatred.  The deciding factor lies in the heroes themselves.  Their personal fortitude has been proven beyond even the possibility of doubt, having actually faced Lavos' physical form and defeated it, banishing him to the Tesseract.  But why did they bother, the people of Lavos ask?  The destruction of the world was well outside of their lifetimes, and didn't affect their lives at all.  There exist two reasons that they decided to help; first, they believe that what Lavos is doing is fundamentally wrong.  But second, and perhaps even more important, is that they believed that the planet, their legacy as human beings, was worth fighting for.  But the world of 2300 A.D. had given up on itself, content to let Lavos kill off humanity.  The people of Zeal, the greatest sons of Earth, had grown decadent and lazy, and it destroyed them.  The Middle Ages had fallen victim to petty bickering and racism, and in Crono's time, imperialism is in the process of destroying peace.  Gaia's successful attack on Lavos had not relied upon the rule describing its lifeforms, but the exception.  Humanity was an exception from the very beginning; they weren't even Gaia's desire.  It was only because of Lavos that they were allowed to survive, and even now it would seem as though it's trying to kill humanity off, judging from the Time Crash (which will be addressed as part of the El Nido scenario).  

Thus, humanity's ultimate test, that of survival and the assertion of destiny, comes in two parts.  For part one, Lavos' people would modify the Epoch's engine to be able to generate a temporal field allowing the team access to Gaia's inner core; this would be the limit of their aid.  The team would still have to defeat King Zeal and his crazy bioweapon by themselves.  The second part is for humanity to forever rid themselves of the scourge of Lavos, as he's still alive, and operating from the Tesseract, where, after the final battle, he's consuming Schala's powers to evolve into a Time Devourer.  Basically, Chrono Cross stands as the fulfillment of humanity's test, not only to the people of Lavos, but to ourselves and our posterity as well; they've achieved the virtue of knowledge.  Once that has happened, the path opens to harmony of the spirit.  The ultimate destiny of humanity is of course left untold, because (surprise) it hasn't been written yet.  That's our job to find out.

For the actual mechanics of the final battle, King Zeal would first take his normal form.  Phase II would consist of a battle with the bioweapon, after which Lavos makes a key mistake; thinking that nothing can now stop his ascension as the supreme ruler of Earth, he releases King Zeal from existence to focus all his weapon's energy on assimilating the world.  The bioweapon, however, accidentally assimilates King Zeal before he can disappear from existence, a condition both allowed and magnified by the chaos of souls and time that the weapon is creating.  Once this occurs, a rather lengthy cutscene about King Zeal and his relationship with Schala, Janus, Queen Zeal, and the world at large commences.  After that, the final fight begins; the bioweapon's evolved into a much stronger form, resembling the Lavos shell (only much, much uglier and covered in satanic imagery) and the background for the fight is a distorted version of the time bubble from the first game.  However, despite its increased strength, its soul is now contesting that of King Zeal for dominance, and this weakness is what the heroes exploit to destroy it.  Even moreso, King Zeal informs the heroes that they can weaken it by using the Chrono Break. It still has a bit of Sorin's life energy attached to it; allowing the weapon to assimilate the Chrono Break, and thus Sorin, who bears nothing but hatred for Lavos, results in the weapon's very existence starting to unravel, and it needs to absorb the power of Zurvan to survive, rendering it even bloody uglier than before and causing it to change forms and weaknesses periodically.  After a harrowing final battle, the weapon has been weakened so much that it's taking in too much of Zurvan's power to focus on assimilation, but this will destroy the entire universe if left unchecked.  Thus, it needs someone to strike the final blow.  However, once this is done, the sacrifice will stop, and whoever isn't out of the dreamworld will vanish into Zurvan along with the bioweapon and King Zeal.  The same chaos observed inside the ruins of the Black Omen begins to take shape, only this time, it's much like Daniel described the gateway between worlds, with each portal leading to a different timeline altogether; in effect, it's much like the people of Lavos describe the first ages of the universe.  Schala is ensnared by a portal that emanates from the bioweapon, and Janus is outraged.  Crono naturally volunteers to strike the final blow against the machine, and Janus objects all the way, screaming that he has to get his sister back.  Crono eventually just knocks him the fuck out and orders Lucca and the remaining party members to GTFO, because if they don't they're all fuckin' dead.  Marle stays behind with him, because she knows she can't live without him.  The others escape in an Epoch that ends up trashed after the fact; by the grace of Lavos' people, they're afforded a time portal back to 2302, where Chronopolis has manifested in reality once again.  From there, the ending commences.

Janus Zeal

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #581 on: December 20, 2005, 11:50:47 pm »
While the ending sounds amazing on paper, can we realistically achieve this in-game?

Again, a bold move to kill off Crono and Marle, but since this is a bridge between CT and CC it has to be done. Nice ending so far Hadriel, if not a little hard to understand.

Hadriel

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #582 on: December 23, 2005, 08:10:42 pm »
Therein lies the problem; I don't know how much stuff we can realistically fit in the ROM.

Chickenlump

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #583 on: December 23, 2005, 09:49:09 pm »
Cut the game in two, if you fear running out of room. CE, Part 1 and Part 2.
Leave Part 1 with a cliffhanger of some sort, you could even split the development team a bit, and have both parts going on at the same time. After the gamer is done with part 1, they can keep all the stuff they found, because they can load up their previous SRAM save (the SRAM file needs to be the same name as the ROM, so no problem there). At the begining of Part 2, the first event can clear all the storyline points used in the first, so they are clear for round 2.

Chrono'99

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Chrono Trigger: Crimson Echoes Plot Development
« Reply #584 on: December 23, 2005, 10:04:16 pm »
Maybe what I'm going to say is stupid, but if the game is cut in 2 ROMs, could it be possible to make Glenn a playable character in one part and, you know... Schala playable in the other part? Just a question.