Author Topic: About the Masamune.  (Read 11815 times)

Trixter

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About the Masamune.
« on: February 15, 2008, 02:32:36 pm »
Ok I've seen people on this site say multiple times that the Chrono series abhors paradoxes.  So then how does one explain the Masamune in Chrono Trigger?

When Crono firsts finds the sword it's in its Masamune form.  But it doesn't change from the Ruby Knife into the Masamune until Crono goes back in the past and stabs the Mammon Machine with it.  I first thought that maybe Melchoir originally used the Ruby Knife on the Mammon Machine.  However, during the original timeline it shows the 3 gurus, Queen, Zeal, Schala, and Janus all next to the Mammon Machine and there's absolutely no indication that the Ruby Knife has been used.

So isn't this a never ending loop?

Trixter

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2008, 02:40:33 pm »
Oh and by the way.  What exactly does Magus mean when you defeat him and he says:

Magus: W...what have you done to the Masamune...?


FaustWolf

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2008, 02:44:00 pm »
I've always wondered about the Red Knife graphic being used when Cyrus confronts the monsters in Guardia Forest with Glenn and that unknown lady in tow. Is it possible the Masamune somehow transformed during Cyrus' quest, obviating the need for anyone to have stabbed the Mammon Machine in the original time line?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 03:15:01 pm by FaustWolf »

V_Translanka

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2008, 02:57:40 pm »
There's plenty of time in which Melchior could have used the Ruby Knife against the Mammon Machine prior to the Magus flashbacks...I mean, in the original timeline Melchior didn't get sent up to Mt. Woe, right? Since he wasn't fuct that way, he surely had more time to mess w/the Mammon Machine...

As for the graphic used w/Cyrus...Is that supposed to be the Masamune? I thought that they were going up to GET the Masamune and then right after Cyrus & Glenn got it Magus ambushed 'em...So then the graphic would just be some generic red-colored sword...

Trixter

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2008, 03:34:30 pm »
Just because the Magus flashback is short doesn't guarantee that Melchoir used the Ruby Knife.  As I said in my first post, there is NO indication that the Mammon Machine had been harmed in the Magus flashback.  In fact there doesn't seem to be any animosity between the gurus and Queen Zeal at that point either.  If Melchoir had stabbed the Mammon Machine I would think Queen Zeal would have done something about it.  This leads me to believe that the Ruby Knife was not used at all in the original timeline.

And I forgot about the Cyrus/Frog King battle.  I think that Cyrus is using the Masamune at that point for two reasons.  One, Cyrus is well known throughout the Middle ages at that time for weilding the Masamune.  If he and Glenn had JUST stumbled upon it before Magus attacked them people wouldn't have that idea about Cyrus.  And two, the following lines,

GLENN: Aaah!

CYRUS: Beware Glenn!!

GLENN: Cyrus!
   The sword...
   The Masamune!

OZZIE: Gyah ha ha...Is THAT the best you can do?!  Without your sword, you're nothing!

sound to me like Ozzie or Magus knocked the Masamune from Cryus' hands.


So that means that in the original timeline the Ruby Knife somehow needed to be powered up between 590-600, but where?  And how?

I originally thought that the simple prescence of Masa and Mune in the Knife gave it the upgrade into the sword, but I don't think that is the case.  Because in the new timeline BEFORE Crono stabs the Mammon Machine with the Ruby Knife we hear,

MASA: Here we go Mune!
MUNE: Ready, big brother!

So that means that Masa and Mune are already present in the Ruby Knife.  So what other source of energy in the Middle Ages could have upgraded the Ruby Knife into the Masamune during the original timeline?  I say source of energy because of these line in the game.

Lucca: The Machine's energy
   changed the knife into a sword?

Robo: The knife used the Machine's
   power to become a sword?

And I'm still thinking all of this has something to do with Magus saying, "What have you done to the Masamune" when you defeat him.

Thought

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2008, 06:40:11 pm »
Logically, if nothing else, the "red knife" powered up into the "masamune" when melchior reforged it. Sure, the hilt and blade looked a lot like the masamune, but each part was also about half the size of Marle. Proportions don't seem to have been comparable.

However, I think the Compendium's official stance is more along the lines that in the original timeline, Melchior wasn't imprissoned and so he had time to complete it. In the altered timeline, he was imprissoned and so the red knife represents a work in progress, which the energy (and possibly material) from the Mammon Machine completed.

Trixter

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2008, 07:53:21 pm »
Logically, if nothing else, the "red knife" powered up into the "masamune" when melchior reforged it. Sure, the hilt and blade looked a lot like the masamune, but each part was also about half the size of Marle. Proportions don't seem to have been comparable.

However, I think the Compendium's official stance is more along the lines that in the original timeline, Melchior wasn't imprissoned and so he had time to complete it. In the altered timeline, he was imprissoned and so the red knife represents a work in progress, which the energy (and possibly material) from the Mammon Machine completed.

^It's amazing how unlogical that whole statement was.

In a post above we talked about Cyrus using what appeared to be the Masamune in Ruby Knife form.  So in the original timeline if Melchoir had "completed" it as you said it should not look like the Ruby Knife in Cyrus' hands.  And I might not be a blacksmith, but I know enough to know that when a sword is made a person doesn't start off by making a knife and then build it into a sword.  Comprende?

And the 2 halves of the Masamune match up pretty good in my opinion.  The Dreamstone obviously would add a little length to the blade in order to reforge it.

If that really is the Compendium's official stance you all need to take a second look because that just doesn't make any sense.

Vehek

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2008, 08:50:38 pm »
Where is it said that Cyrus is "well known throughout the Middle ages at that time for weilding the Masamune"?
I just checked the game script and couldn't find anything like that.

edit-
Oh and by the way.  What exactly does Magus mean when you defeat him and he says:
Magus: W...what have you done to the Masamune...?
Retranslation reveals that he was shocked at being beaten by Frog.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2008, 08:56:08 pm by Vehek »

Trixter

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2008, 09:37:44 pm »
He was the Legendary Hero everyone talked about.  And it's pretty obvious that the Legendary Hero wields the Masamune.  When Tata was labelled the Hero he tried to get his hands on the Masamune.  Frog said he was not the hero so he could not use the Masamune.

So it's pretty obvious that since Cyrus was the Legendary Hero he had possesion of the Masamune.

Trixter

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2008, 09:42:23 pm »
Oh and I don't see how,...

Magus:  Y, you, the Grandleon, that far......

...is interpreted as Magus being in disbelief that Frog beat him.  Granted though it doesn't mean the same thing as "what have you done to the Masamune" either.

ZeaLitY

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2008, 10:04:01 pm »
He was killed presumably while trying to get the Masamune on that mission to also get the Hero Medal back from the Frog King, since the battle takes place right outside the Masamune's cave.

Trixter

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2008, 10:47:49 pm »
He was killed presumably while trying to get the Masamune on that mission to also get the Hero Medal back from the Frog King, since the battle takes place right outside the Masamune's cave.

Umm your point???  Just because the battle took place there doesn't mean that Cyrus didn't already have possesion of the Masamune.

Vehek

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2008, 01:58:42 am »
Quote from: Retranslation
Moreover, I want to try confirming the so-called legendary sword with my own eyes......
He wouldn't say something like this if he already had the Masamune. No one ever calls Cyrus the "legendary Hero".

Trixter

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2008, 02:19:03 am »
WHATEVER!  Who the hell cares about Cyrus anyways?  That wasn't even the intial question.  The question is how did the Ruby Knife power up into in the Masamune in the Lavos Timeline!  Melchoir clearly did not use the knife himself on the Mammon Machine.

And just as a side note, I find it sickening that people here always point to the Retranslation.  Who's to say one translation is any better than another.  Some words an phrases aren't so easy to convert between languages.  The retranslation doesn't have any more bearing than the original translations.  Give Woosley a little credit ya?

dankun

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Re: About the Masamune.
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2008, 02:24:32 am »
He was killed presumably while trying to get the Masamune on that mission to also get the Hero Medal back from the Frog King, since the battle takes place right outside the Masamune's cave.

What??
No he wasn't! He obviously did obtain it, as per what Masa & Mune say when you challange them:

Masa: They're tough!
Mune: Only Cyrus made it this far!

The real question is at what point in time did all of this really happened.
Yes, the battle does indeed takes place at that location. However, does this necessarily mean that he had just finished fighting Masa & Mune for it? Also, this is when the Masamune gets broken into two pieces, in that very fight against Magus:

GLENN: Cyrus!
   The sword...
   The Masamune!
OZZIE: Gyah ha ha...Is THAT the best you can do?!  Without your sword, you're nothing!

Ozzie's remark seems to indicate that Cyrus had indeed, already been the wielder of the sword for at least some time. As opposed to having just recently acquired it, a few moments ago.

As for the legend of the 'legendary hero', who 'supposedly' could be the only wielder of the Masamune and would save them from an overpowering evil, it had to have originated from somewhere, right? Or rather from someone, having used it for a considerable amount time in a very righteous, honorable and selfless way.