Further Character Discussion

[SimChao]

So... let me get this straight. There is a fan-edit of CC being made that only includes the characters that are deemed "good enough" by the community? Whatever floats their boats, I say. I think it's a horrible idea and I would never play it, but if that's what they want to do, let them.

A huge factor in my love for Chrono Cross is the freedom that I have to make any character I want seem important to the plot if I choose to. When I play, Poshul is a main character. When others play, she might not be in the story at all. Such is the beauty of Chrono Cross... You can play it however you want, unlike other RPG's, where you are forced to use certain characters and play a certain way. In Chrono Cross, your gameplay experience is tailored by YOU, and to take that away is to ruin the essence of the game.

But whatever, do as you wish. I just think it's a disastrous idea if I've ever heard one. I don't see the point in making a less flexible and variable version of a masterpiece of a game, just to cater to the minimalists and CT fanboys.

[ZeaLitY]

No, there's no fan edit or anything. This was just an idea to impose an arbitrary, symbolic cut-off in the future poll ranking feature. Sort of like, only the top ten remain playable. But in hindsight it's not very fair or in taste for the article.

[dankun]

So... let me get this straight. There is a fan-edit of CC being made that only includes the characters that are deemed "good enough" by the community? Whatever floats their boats, I say. I think it's a horrible idea and I would never play it, but if that's what they want to do, let them.

Yes, so sorry for the confusion. I guess my last post in this thread can lend itself to misinterpretation. I agree with you wholeheartedly, you see. All I was trying to say is that if there ever was such project, I would very much be disgusted by its mere existence. Not that there was one already being made. My concern is that perhaps, one day someone may actually try and pull this off, seeing as how there are way too many chrono fanboys out there in the community and so many means for them to be able to accomplish such a thing (RPG Maker programs).

A huge factor in my love for Chrono Cross is the freedom that I have to make any character I want seem important to the plot if I choose to. When I play, Poshul is a main character. When others play, she might not be in the story at all. Such is the beauty of Chrono Cross... You can play it however you want, unlike other RPG's, where you are forced to use certain characters and play a certain way. In Chrono Cross, your gameplay experience is tailored by YOU, and to take that away is to ruin the essence of the game.

Quoted for truth.
Personally, I like almost all of the characters and I don't really dislike any of them.

But whatever, do as you wish. I just think it's a disastrous idea if I've ever heard one. I don't see the point in making a less flexible and variable version of a masterpiece of a game, just to cater to the minimalists and CT fanboys.

I just hope that such a project will never materialize into existence. So that we will never have to worry about it.

[Kyronea]

If you want freedom of choice with your characters, go play a game that allows you to create characters. There are plenty of good ones out there.

RPGs in the style of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are not meant to be games where you have that sort of control over characters. That's not how they work. They're supposed to be purely about the story with the characters highly involved in every little aspect, and as such the game suffers from having so many characters, because the ones that did truly matter suffered greatly, and for what? NeoFio? Funguy? Mojo? Come on!

[V_Translanka]

Just because you put Poshule or Turnip or NeoFio in your party, the fact that people argue about is that they STILL DON'T GET ENOUGH CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!!! I hate to do it because people will say, "Oh, you're just a Trigger fan, your reasons aren't valid because you're comparing the sequal to the original game!", BUT, in Chrono Trigger, if you put Ayla or Magus or Robo (admittedly each ten times the characters that the previous three are) into your party, they each GET MORE CHARACTER DEVELOPMENT!!! If you go to the trouble of putting a character in your party, they should have unique dialogue to set them apart from the pack and add something to the overall experience of the game. That is the only real fault I see in Chrono Cross, but I believe it to be such a big one that I've always said that GameSpot's 10.0 is bunk.

I don't think I agree completely with Kyronea though. RPGs can have casts that allow you to change the party and still have good development. Trigger & FFVI are good examples (SRPGs also do this, but normally suffer Character Development).

[Kyronea]

True, but usually the casts are small enough that all will get a reasonable amount of character development...around seven or eight is usually good enough.

[SimChao]

RPGs in the style of Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross are not meant to be games where you have that sort of control over characters. That's not how they work. They're supposed to be purely about the story with the characters highly involved in every little aspect, and as such the game suffers from having so many characters, because the ones that did truly matter suffered greatly, and for what? NeoFio? Funguy? Mojo? Come on!

According to what? Is there some kind of RPG god that sets all of these rules? The fact that games like Chrono Cross and Suikoden exist totally disproves your point. Chrono Cross does not = Final Fantasy, and it doesn't = Chrono Trigger, either. Character development was apparently not meant to be very important in this game, or else there would have been more of it. It was a different type of RPG from Trigger, that focused more on variety and freedom of choice, and it worked for what it was. The fact that every character didn't have 30 hours of backstory didn't stop of it from being hailed by critics and fans as one of the best RPG's ever.

If you want freedom of choice with your characters, go play a game that allows you to create characters. There are plenty of good ones out there.

If you want to play an RPG with a small and invariable cast, than Cross probably isn't your game - but there are plenty of good Chrono fangames out there. Or, you can try Final Fantasy. You're basically telling me 'screw off and play something else if you don't like it', but that applies much more to you in this situation, since you're the one complaining.

Cross has already been made, and I will continue to enjoy it for many years to come, while you continue to bitch about it. But the fact is, it isn't going to just magically change into your dream CT sequel, so I win in the end. Keep moping. 

[Kebrel]

You're basically telling me 'screw off and play something else if you don't like it', but that applies much more to you in this situation, since you're the one complaining.

That is not what he saying at all. If you what a game plaed your way, then play Fallout or an Elder Scroll, but normally they lack all the detail thats found in games like Star ocean, Chrono Trigger, or a Finial Fantasy, they in turn lack the customization that non-linear games have. Chrono cross was vary much on the linear side of the RPG spectrum but lacked much of the development that is normally found in the field.

Cross has already been made, and I will continue to enjoy it for many years to come, while you continue to bitch about it. But the fact is, it isn't going to just magically change into your dream CT sequel, so I win in the end. Keep moping. 

This is just the kind of fanboyism that I absolutely hate, Chrono Cross is amazingly good ,but it is in no way perfect. No game I have ever play can be called perfect(except M.U.L.E. but thats not a game it's an experience) there is always something that can be fixed. So knock it off you don't win. If there is anything I have learned here it is that at the compendium nothing is undebatable.

[SimChao]

Please quote the exact part of my post, where I said, specifically, that Cross is perfect, and then we'll talk. I defended the parts of the game that were being criticized (and wrongfully so) by pointing out that Cross is a game that was never intended to focus on character development. If you want character development, you're looking in the wrong place with Cross. CC is more open-ended and less in-depth than Trigger on purpose - this was not a mistake on the developers part, and I think it's safe to say that it worked for most people. So the idea of 44 PC's in a game didn't appeal you in particular? Boo-hoo, let's all complain about it incessantly nearly 10 years after the game's release.

And yes, I do win, because in the end, all of your whining will be in vain since it's not going to change a damn thing about the game.

[dankun]

That is not what he saying at all.

I believe that was what he was trying to say or something to that effect. Although I don't know if it was a comment specifically directed at him.

If you what a game plaed your way, then play Fallout or an Elder Scroll, but normally they lack all the detail thats found in games like Star ocean, Chrono Trigger, or a Finial Fantasy, they in turn lack the customization that non-linear games have.

First of all, don't compare Chrono Cross to the lame and pathethic so called 'role' playing games for the PC, that are nothing but cheapskates FPS attempting to pass off as a real RPG.
Second, customization is available for many of these other games that you mention not to have any.

Chrono cross was vary much on the linear side of the RPG spectrum but lacked much of the development that is normally found in the field.

Chrono Cross is by no means your 'linear', avarage, and normal role playing game. It didn't lack character development. It simply wasn't emphasized on a particular cast of characters, so that the player could actually choose what his party would consist of without loosing out on anything else that other characters may bring to the table.
Also of note, is the fact that even though it wasn't its focus (because it would be idiotic for anyone to believe that it was, and that it was an overlooked characteristic of the game by its creators), the game actually does gives most of its characters at least some characer development.

Cross has already been made, and I will continue to enjoy it for many years to come, while you continue to bitch about it. But the fact is, it isn't going to just magically change into your dream CT sequel, so I win in the end. Keep moping. 

I will continue to do very same thing. I just don't understand why some people have so many personal issues with this game.

This is just the kind of fanboyism that I absolutely hate, Chrono Cross is amazingly good ,but it is in no way perfect. No game I have ever play can be called perfect(except M.U.L.E. but thats not a game it's an experience) there is always something that can be fixed. So knock it off you don't win. If there is anything I have learned here it is that at the compendium nothing is undebatable.

It's not fanboyism. What you're doing by comparing it to all these other role playing games is. And if there ever was a game that not only should, but in effect is considered perfect, it's Chrono Cross.

[SimChao]

Well, I wouldn't say it's perfect. I agree with everything you said other than that. Please, quoting me and then calling the game perfect is not helping my argument.

[V_Translanka]

First of all, don't compare Chrono Cross to the lame and pathethic so called 'role' playing games for the PC, that are nothing but cheapskates FPS attempting to pass off as a real RPG.

What? So Oblivion doesn't simply kick ass? Fore shame.

the game actually does gives most of its characters at least some characer development.

The main factor is that the "some" is so close to NONE that it hardly matters...and I'd call foul on that "most" as well...but I suppose "some" is vague enough to compromise...

First and foremost, it's an RPG. A role playing game. If it doesn't have clearly defined characters, what's the point? A good story is key to a good RPG, but without good characters you're left with a slowly moving plot that's hard to care much for. Reasons are more important than actions.

[Kebrel]

First of all, don't compare Chrono Cross to the lame and pathethic so called 'role' playing games for the PC, that are nothing but cheapskates FPS attempting to pass off as a real RPG.
Second, customization is available for many of these other games that you mention not to have any.

You have got to be kidding some of the best RPG's are for the PC, Elder Scroll are great rpgs, and Fallout is by far one for the best games ever. How is this in any anyway a lame, pathetic, cheapskates? I would Like you try and dis on Ultima.

Also of note, is the fact that even though it wasn't its focus (because it would be idiotic for anyone to believe that it was, and that it was an overlooked characteristic of the game by its creators), the game actually does gives most of its characters at least some characer development.

Character development is what bridges the gap from the player to the story. Chrono cross had an epic story, It was vary cinematic, but that was its flaw it was like watching a movie or reading a book. Unlike Chrono trigger were I felt attached to the story. How was that there point? A game with no attachment, I doubt that was on there drawing bored.

It's not fanboyism. What you're doing by comparing it to all these other role playing games is. And if there ever was a game that not only should, but in effect is considered perfect, it's Chrono Cross.

Its not perfect in what way can you see it as so!?!

[dankun]

Well, I wouldn't say it's perfect. I agree with everything you said other than that. Please, quoting me and then calling the game perfect is not helping my argument.

Well yes, sorry about that.
A little help defending it, would be much appreciated. I don't think it's a'perfect' game either, just the closest game (RPG) to being perfect I've ever encountered. And it also happens to be one of the very few games that has recieved a perfect score.

What? So Oblivion doesn't simply kick ass? Fore shame.

Let's not deviate from the topic at hand. You and the others were comparing the game to the RPG's for the PC.
Cross has nothing to do with those.

The main factor is that the "some" is so close to NONE that it hardly matters...and I'd call foul on that "most" as well...but I suppose "some" is vague enough to compromise...

Okay, then let's put everything into perspective. Since you all seem to fail to realize the key aspect that the game creators decidedly choose for the game's characters.
Let's use the characters that you offered as examples, for both games.
Poshul, Turnip and NeoFio for Cross, and Ayla, Magus and Robo for Triigger. Just do a simple comparison between their backstories, using the encyclopedia. You'll be shocked by the results.

First and foremost, it's an RPG. A role playing game. If it doesn't have clearly defined characters, what's the point? A good story is key to a good RPG, but without good characters you're left with a slowly moving plot that's hard to care much for. Reasons are more important than actions.

Cross doesn't have clearly defined characters?
Than what about: Kid, Serge, Harle, Lynx, Norris, Karsh, Nikki, Fargo, Viper, Radius, Riddel, Marcy, Leena, Razzly, Sprigg, Glenn, Starky, etc...?
That's at least 17 characters that are very much well developed.
If you don't call that having clearly defined characters, I don't know what you will.

You have got to be kidding some of the best RPG's are for the PC, Elder Scroll are great rpgs, and Fallout is by far one for the best games ever. How is this in any anyway a lame, pathetic, cheapskates? I would Like you try and dis on Ultima.

Thery're still just FPS in disguise. I never really cared much for the Ultimas series either.

Character development is what bridges the gap from the player to the story. Chrono cross had an epic story, It was vary cinematic, but that was its flaw it was like watching a movie or reading a book. Unlike Chrono trigger were I felt attached to the story. How was that there point? A game with no attachment, I doubt that was on there drawing bored.

No argument there. Character development is a must for any real Role Playing Game. And I agree with the rest of your statement too, except for the last part. But I think you're starting to get my point.

Its not perfect in what way can you see it as so!?!

Read this quote and try to disagree with any of its parts.

It's an epic romance- a game made for radical dreamers everywhere.  The colorful characters, the vibrant world, the breathtaking music... all of these elements come together to create an experience that is truly remarkable.  The battle system is innovative, the cinematics glow....  everything about the game just shines.

[maggiekarp]

Cross doesn't have clearly defined characters?
Than what about: Kid, Serge, Harle, Lynx, Norris, Karsh, Nikki, Fargo, Viper, Radius, Riddel, Marcy, Leena, Razzly, Sprigg, Glenn, Starky, etc...?
That's at least 17 characters that are very much well developed.
If you don't call that having clearly defined characters, I don't know what you will.

17 out of 40-something is not exactly awesome, dude. And half of the ones you listed are debatable.

[edit] Also, if CC is the best RPG you've come across, then you haven't played a lot of RPGs. The American translated-in-a-month version of FF6 was better for its time than CC, character-development and (arguably) plot wise.