Author Topic: The $%*! frustration thread  (Read 483996 times)

Schala Zeal

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5490 on: January 19, 2011, 07:07:15 am »
Mother's snoring like a tremendously loud creaking door! >_<

Sajainta

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5491 on: January 19, 2011, 07:12:05 am »
@Lord J: Not just author surrogates. XDDD I'm really talking about Mary Sue. Think of it this way: if you completely leave out the genre of the stories then you find that a concept is shared between Twilight and an anime called School Rumble, and that is a girl, an author/audience surrogate, finds herself falling for a man who's almost perfect. And I'm not just talking about the two protagonist girls either, but also those "perfect dudes" named Edward Cullen and Oji Karasuma. Both the characters are Gary Stu by nature, lack of flaws and what some girls perfectly dig, but Edward Cullen was unintentional while Karasuma was placed there with artistic and comical intention. It's because the story revolving around Tsukamoto and Karasuma is so goddamned fun to watch nobody complains, or even has the time to think, about negative aspects of Mary Sue-ism!  :lol:

I'm confused...what does the explanation of those two plotlines have to do with your own story?  Or are you describing the novel and the anime to tell us that you have a similar plotline?

Also, I hope you realize that some characters can have distinctively Mary Sue traits without actually being a Mary Sue.  If your characters are supposedly well-rounded and have legitimate flaws then I fail to see why you would call them Mary Sues.

What do you consider to be a Mary Sue?

tushantin

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5492 on: January 19, 2011, 07:48:32 am »
@Saijanta: The reasons to why I considered using Mary Sue in my books are described in this post, not the one you quoted. The one you quoted, though, was where I was describing about how few pop-cultures use the concept of Mary Sue in an artistic sense, and how to use those traits to one's advantage rather than centering the story around it.

Besides Audience/Author surrogates similar to John Watson or Rose Tyler, if a character has every trait of a Mary Sue, but is not a Mary Sue, and is STILL an amazing character to have then what would you call it?

Sajainta

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5493 on: January 19, 2011, 09:51:13 am »
First off, sorry for being nitpicky, but my username is Sajainta, not Saijanta.  I've noticed that every time you address me in a post you misspell the name, and I don't really know why.  I know it's a random and odd username, so if you want to avoid misspellings you can just call me Saj.

@Saijanta: The reasons to why I considered using Mary Sue in my books are described in this post, not the one you quoted.

That's...not what I was asking?  I asked if the plot explanations of the two examples you provided had anything to do with your own plot, not why you decided to use Mary Sues.

Besides Audience/Author surrogates similar to John Watson or Rose Tyler, if a character has every trait of a Mary Sue, but is not a Mary Sue, and is STILL an amazing character to have then what would you call it?

I don't know who either of those people are, so I can't comment on that.

There is no possible way for someone to have "every trait" of a Mary Sue and not be a Mary Sue.  That would mean that they're immortal, a quarter vampire and a quarter demon and a quarter werewolf and a quarter angel, speak every language ever, having characters falling in love with them left and right, are the last of their kind, are some kind of "Chosen One", all of their terrible actions are always justified, are beautiful or handsome beyond all reason, have magical powers that no one else has ever had, are the most powerful person in the story ever, etc. etc. etc.  Definitely an irredeemable Mary Sue.

However, some characters in literature or movies or w/e do exhibit traits characteristic of Mary Sues without being a Mary Sue.  Immortality, last of their kind, some kind of hybrid creature, some kind of "Chosen One", yet their ~*uber speshul-ness*~ is not overwhelming and / or is realistic to the universe they live in.  And they have flaws, and are held responsible for their actions, and don't complain about being "too gorgeous" all the time.

So if a character has SOME Mary Sue traits, but is still believable and is not the most perfect being evar next to Jesus, then obviously that's not a Mary Sue.  But someone who has every trait of a Mary Sue is obviously a Mary Sue.  I understand that the line can be blurry, but I've read enough (good and bad) literature to usually be able to spot a Mary Sue when I see one.

Again, how do you define the word "Mary Sue".

Kodokami

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5494 on: January 19, 2011, 10:58:28 am »
I consider a Mary Sue any character with cliché characteristics.

tushantin

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5495 on: January 19, 2011, 11:40:47 am »
Good point, Kodokami! Unfortunately today we're buried with millions of literary works, and thus it's pretty hard to find anything without being cliche'd.

@Saj: Ouch! Sorry about that, I didn't notice. I was dyslexic as a kid, but was forced to get over it (with intense and severe tutoring by people who simply thought I was a jackass for failing classes). Of course, the year after that my hard work paid off as I surprised people by becoming a topper (i.e., highest marks in class), but my grades went poorer again as I had to study other languages besides English. Although forcing myself to type in proper grammar everytime I'm on a PC, it looks like my symptoms are still catching on. For instance, just today I saw the word Heuseca twice and kept thinking it was Lucca until I read it for the third time. Yeah, I'm a very slow reader.  :oops:

Anywhos, back to the Mary Sue point, that statement which you quoted previously was actually directed at Lord J, and it wasn't Lord J who asked about my novel. Nevertheless, since you're curious I'll tell you.

At first, I think Mary Sue is supposed to be either the author's "dream come true in a fictional fantasy" or being treated by the author as "special", as if the world revolved around them. They're often loathed by the audience, which gives them the term, but that's the consequence, not the cause and nature of the character. Usually perfection, tragic past, etc. all come secondary, but you remove the "fulfillment" and "special" aspects of Mary Sue it becomes really tricky to actually use it masterfully, thus my experiments in my own novel. What I do know is that, despite the faults, a handful of authors have used them intentionally for comical or "thematic" effect, though removing certain traits (like tragic pasts for Karasuma) and still keeping him what he was intended to be.

How the following pop-culture ties in with my novel? Now think back for a second: why do people hate stories with Mary Sues? It's usually because the plot is centered around them, thus the bad development bleeds into the story. But what if we keep the character as-is (without changing) and still keep an engaging plot? Well you'd say that the character would still be hated, but that's the idea. Now if the protagonist is a Mary Sue, then he'd be unbeatable, right? He'd have no problem beating the bad guys and the story would be boring and predictable, yeah? Now take a look at the other side of the coin: who's the MOST hated in any story? The antagonist. Mary Sue is an immortal, a quarter vampire and a quarter demon and a quarter werewolf, yadda yadda? What if the ANTAGONIST was Mary Sue? If that happens, wouldn't the protagonist really have trouble beating him/her, especially when the author likes the antagonist over the protagonist, while the audience is rooting for the hero nonetheless? The unpredictability gives rise to many story opportunities.

But it's not about just switch and swaps. Nah, story writing is more complicated than that. Take School Rumble, for instance. Karasuma is cool. He's the type of guy most guys want to be, but not him exactly. Mainly because he's an intentional Mary Sue, but also a parody of it at the same time. He's immortal (he does things which can kill anybody), he's good looking (in the eyes of the girl, despite his average looks), he's calm and emotionless (some people's wet dreams), super-powered, part alien (in some episodes), can turn into super-saiyan and pull out force-fields, always gets the chick, etc. But he ain't the hero in this movie, and I did mention why. Instead, he's actually the antagonist,  the guy taking the chick away from the main hero Harima. And it's actually funny! XD

Hell, even the author once mentioned that one his most favourite characters was Karasuma, because despite being "flawless and talented", he brings some opportunities for more plot which forces the main characters to think up of various ways to confess their love/kill him.

Similarly, I have also been going for a similar theme, usually satirical or, basically, doing the impossible and exploring where other writers fear to tread.  :franky

Kodokami

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5496 on: January 19, 2011, 12:41:57 pm »
Not necessarily. A cliché is anything "which has been overused to the point of losing its original meaning ... rendering it a stereotype." Many unoriginal ideas can become original simply by the approach an author takes.

From what I know of him, I would not consider Karasuma a Mary Sue character. For example, how does his role affect the protagonist's development? Surely the protagonist faces difficulties against Karasuma and grows as a result. The author also poses a legitimate answer as to why Karasuma is his favorite; he was not designed to be "flawless and talented" just for the fun of it, but to act as a foil for the protagonist / other characters.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5497 on: January 19, 2011, 06:33:47 pm »
Shaving with a dull blade.

Schala Zeal

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5498 on: January 19, 2011, 09:03:01 pm »
turned on the shower water and piping hot water was squirting from the hot water knob >.< additionally had an ant invasion, but I was quick to hose em down the drain with the shower head

Trebuchet

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5499 on: January 19, 2011, 09:26:48 pm »
Spanish Mid-Term coming up. Shit.

Acacia Sgt

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5500 on: January 19, 2011, 10:04:43 pm »
Gave the dentist a visit...

Result: I'm two teeth less...

Mouth hurts...

$%*! indeed...

>_>

Schala Zeal

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5501 on: January 19, 2011, 10:26:45 pm »
Spanish Mid-Term coming up. Shit.

Unless you're a diplomat, the only phrase you need to know in Spanish is "Speak English already!"

Lord J Esq

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5502 on: January 19, 2011, 10:38:16 pm »
No frustrations tonight.

Sajainta

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5503 on: January 19, 2011, 11:43:26 pm »
Spanish Inquisition coming up.  Shit.  :(

Samopoznanie

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Re: The $%*! frustration thread
« Reply #5504 on: January 20, 2011, 12:19:17 am »
Handing back student exams with marks of 27%.  Not sure who it's more awkward for, me or them.  :picardno