Author Topic: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal  (Read 1806 times)

V_Translanka

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Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« on: September 19, 2006, 07:29:30 pm »
I've often said that I'm on the side of the fence that says that when Masa says that he and Mune embody Melchior's dreams that he isn't speaking in a literal sense...

Quote from: Masa
The ancient Red Rock has been
   passed down through the ages.
   From it, a magic pendant and a knife
   were made.

   We embody Melchior's dreams,
   sealed, within the knife...

But I've never actually made a case for my arguement. Recently I was playing through Chrono Trigger again (my current Memory Card doesn't have a save w/all of the endings & extras) and I was at the point when Frog opens the cave to Magus' Castle and he said something that interested me...

Quote from: Frog
Mine name is Glenn!
   Cyrus's hopes and dreams...
   And now the Masamune...

So I began to think, besides perhaps in Enhansa in Zeal, when is 'dreams' used in a literal sense, when do 'dreams' create some kind of physical manifestation? Of course, I immediately thought of the whole "Our Planet's Dream", so I pondered that as well. It doesn't seem as though the planet, the Entity, is really dreaming, right? It took a backseat, or perhaps it couldn't do anything, to Lavos' interference in the original timeline, but then it intervened and brought about the events of Chrono Trigger and thus, it's 'dream' is the destruction of Lavos. In a similar manner, Frog finally becomes Cyrus's hopes and dreams by truely taking up the Masamune and then Masa & Mune embody Melchior's dreams of the destruction of the Mammon Machine and the fall of Queen Zeal (or perhaps he wanted the restoration of the original). Also, where would Doreen fit into Melchior's dreams if they were, in fact, literally his dreams? Masa doesn't really mention Doreen in that little shpeel.

So there, I've done it to the best of my ability. I've made my case finally and I'm sticking to it! For now at least, I guess...*shrugs*

Chrono'99

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2006, 08:26:21 pm »
The sleeping Acacian dreams Turnip and the Black Dragon dreamed the Marbule "Black Nightmare". The cause might be some dimensional-split properties, but the result is still there: they dreamed and their dream incarnated into something physical.

Also, Masa states that he embodies Melchior's dream, unlike Frog. Perhaps it's an important difference.

Legend of the Past

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #2 on: September 20, 2006, 03:35:32 pm »
Also, Masa states that he embodies Melchior's dream, unlike Frog. Perhaps it's an important difference.

I've always thought that if your dreams are strong, if your will and desire to aid, to avenge, to do what is right and justice are strong it would make the sword stronger. So you can say that Masa and Mune also feed on dreams, or rather, the Dreamstone does. We all saw the results of a determined person holding the sword-it is a mighty sword of justice which causes tremendous damage. Also, the Einlanzer seems to work on a similar note with Glenn and Radius-once Glenn copes with the death of Dario he is able to inherit the Einlanzer and once Radius apologizes to Garai he is able to use the Einlanzer to banish the Masamune.

Zaperking

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #3 on: September 20, 2006, 09:43:59 pm »
Also, Masa states that he embodies Melchior's dream, unlike Frog. Perhaps it's an important difference.

I've always thought that if your dreams are strong, if your will and desire to aid, to avenge, to do what is right and justice are strong it would make the sword stronger. So you can say that Masa and Mune also feed on dreams, or rather, the Dreamstone does. We all saw the results of a determined person holding the sword-it is a mighty sword of justice which causes tremendous damage. Also, the Einlanzer seems to work on a similar note with Glenn and Radius-once Glenn copes with the death of Dario he is able to inherit the Einlanzer and once Radius apologizes to Garai he is able to use the Einlanzer to banish the Masamune.

But the Einlanzer is a holy sword. The Masamune was said to be demonic. They cancel eachother out, and are two of a kind in a theme.

AuraTwilight

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2006, 12:29:40 am »
And what do you think MADE them holy and demonic, Zaper? :P

Mavix

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2006, 04:26:07 pm »
yea nether one is holy or demonic. they only have there own special powers!

AuraTwilight

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2006, 06:05:02 pm »
No, they are holy and demonic. But they were MADE so by people's dreams.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2006, 08:00:26 pm »
No, they are holy and demonic. But they were MADE so by people's dreams.

Not their dreams, but their actions. As I've argued before, Melchior already shaped the basic properties of the knife with his dreams (the three spirits.) Everyone thereafter merely makes use of this by their actions, not their innate personalities. An inherently evil person doing good with it for some reason will not turn the sword evil. My evidence for that is the two spirits saying that it is not who wields the sword, but what is done with it.

AuraTwilight

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2006, 12:36:27 pm »
And what drives actions? Dreams :P

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2006, 04:32:18 pm »
And what drives actions? Dreams :P

Often, personality. But sometimes, mere situation. An evil person can do good given the right circumstances, and vice versa. The sword will not be evil for an evil man, or good for a good; it will be evil when evil is done - even with good intentions, like being overzealous - and good when good is done - even if the intent is wrong, if the person doesn't care about others, or what not, so long as a good is achieved by it, the sword is not evil. The reason for this is because, as I have said before, Melchior has already made the 'pallette' of the sword, the strength, wisdom, and compassion. The amount in which people use this - ie. the fashion the sword takes - is not dependent on an innate character, but what needs to be done with it. An artist who is gloomy and depressive, used to using dark colours, if he decides to suddenly paint something bright for whatever reason (mind you, still being depressive) can nonetheless call on bright yellows and whites to use in his pallate, and the painting will be bright accordingly. Likewise here. When someone wants to do some strong action with the sword, Masa comes to the fore. Notice, in the destruction of the Mammon Machine, in the hands of noble and avenging Glenn, compassionate Doreen is absent. This does not mean either Glenn or Crono lacked compassion, but that compassion had no place in their actions at hand.

AuraTwilight

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2006, 12:41:43 pm »
That's all well and good, except Doreen was never part of the Masamune to begin with until CC.

Chrono'99

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2006, 12:56:43 pm »
That's all well and good, except Doreen was never part of the Masamune to begin with until CC.
Doreen is never part of the Masamune sword at all, because the sword is destroyed before she comes and the 3 siblings go in the Sea Swallow instead.

Doreen does unite with Masa and Mune in CT though, with the the original Grand Dream triple tech.

V_Translanka

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2006, 06:46:48 pm »
Wouldn't Grand Dream imply that it's just Masa (/Grand) & Doreen (/Dream)? Or is it just that Grandlion Dream would have been too much?

Chrono'99

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2006, 07:31:51 pm »
I think Grandlion Dream would probably have been too much. The Grand Dream tech shows 3 "Masamune fat monsters", and in CC, the siblings says something like "it's been a long time since the 3 of us reunited".

Legend of the Past

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Re: Making a Case: Melchior's 'Dreams' Aren't Literal
« Reply #14 on: September 27, 2006, 03:44:52 pm »
Well, it's obvious Doreen WAS in the sword. It was Serge's heart, or perphaps just snapping out of the taint, that woke her up along with the others. The sword CAN work with just Masa and Mune (as we know), it might actually work only with Masa or only with Mune... But when the three spirits are reuinted, you get a kickass weapons of massive proportions.