Is the Ocean Palace Chronopolis? (plus a new look at the timeline)

[Mystic Frog King]

No, because you were saing that magic was stolen from Lavos. But in fact, the energy to do things was stolen from Lavos, and was converted into a way of using magic.

As I said before, Magic = Energy.

Proof? In CT magic is manipulation of the four elements. Innates do not even need energy to use magic (as far as I've know, at least). By Innate I mean someone who can naturally use magic, by the way. Not the colours in CC.

The people of Zeal need energy to use magic because although they are gifted with the power to use magic, they do not possess the natural energy needed to manipulate the elements. So yeah, I see where you're coming from as all evidence shows that energy is needed to use magic, but that does not mean Magis is energy by any means.

There is no such thing as lavoid magic. He's not an innate, and innates aren't of Lavos. Though his mutation process placed upon humans allowed them to tap into using it by themselves.

No one ever said he was, but he is a well of magic, since he can use it and it can be taken from him.

No, he is a well of energy and as such he can use that energy to use magic. Lavos is never spoken of (by citizens of Zeal, at least) as if he has magic, but he is said to have energy and power.

There is nothing unnatural in the Chrono Universe, except for the unnatural evolution speed that humans evolved thanks to an outside source. Everything else exists because it can. Reptites, Humans, Apes, Mystics, Demi-Humans, Hydras, Dragons, Red Moons, dimension travelling boys, star stealing girls lol etc.

There's nothing unnatural in the Chrono Universe? Hm...Machines, Time Eggs, Alternate Universes caused by saving some kid's life that defies known Time Traveling Laws, Kid herself, the Time Devourer, Time Travel itself, Magic, Elements, FATE, the Dragon God, the Masamune, am I missing anything?

I think he means 'nothing that goes against the rules set down by the game itself'.

[AuraTwilight]

Proof? In CT magic is manipulation of the four elements. Innates do not even need energy to use magic (as far as I've know, at least). By Innate I mean someone who can naturally use magic, by the way. Not the colours in CC.

Well, Magic is a force, and it conjures fire, lightning, etcetera and kinetically makes it move and stuff, and apparently Magic is measurable in CT. This doesn't even touch on the fact that Innates use in-game skill points to cast spells, which I would assume is like energy.

Plus there's the fact that the Zealians had to drain Lavos's energy to fuel their magic, and if magic isn't a form of energy, then we have a severe violation of the laws of thermodynamics, and Chronoverse's magic seems to work with SOME of the physical laws atleast.

The people of Zeal need energy to use magic because although they are gifted with the power to use magic, they do not possess the natural energy needed to manipulate the elements. So yeah, I see where you're coming from as all evidence shows that energy is needed to use magic, but that does not mean Magis is energy by any means.

Um...yes is does. If Energy is needed for something to function, then that function is also a form of energy. I mean, hell, even Matter is a form of energy according to modern science.

No, he is a well of energy and as such he can use that energy to use magic. Lavos is never spoken of (by citizens of Zeal, at least) as if he has magic, but he is said to have energy and power.

Energy = Power = Magic.

I think he means 'nothing that goes against the rules set down by the game itself'.

Maybe, but the point still stands. Nature is very ill-defined in Chronoverse, and the only things that can really be called "Natural" in any sense of the word without a shadow of a doubt is the Entity.

[Mystic Frog King]

Proof? In CT magic is manipulation of the four elements. Innates do not even need energy to use magic (as far as I've know, at least). By Innate I mean someone who can naturally use magic, by the way. Not the colours in CC.

Well, Magic is a force, and it conjures fire, lightning, etcetera and kinetically makes it move and stuff, and apparently Magic is measurable in CT. This doesn't even touch on the fact that Innates use in-game skill points to cast spells, which I would assume is like energy.

No, I disagree. Magic is the art of manipulating the elements. And MP is a simple gameplay function used in many, many RPGs.

Plus there's the fact that the Zealians had to drain Lavos's energy to fuel their magic, and if magic isn't a form of energy, then we have a severe violation of the laws of thermodynamics, and Chronoverse's magic seems to work with SOME of the physical laws atleast.

You can use a battery to fuel a torch. Why not use Lavos' energy to fuel a spell?

The people of Zeal need energy to use magic because although they are gifted with the power to use magic, they do not possess the natural energy needed to manipulate the elements. So yeah, I see where you're coming from as all evidence shows that energy is needed to use magic, but that does not mean Magig is energy by any means.

Um...yes is does. If Energy is needed for something to function, then that function is also a form of energy. I mean, hell, even Matter is a form of energy according to modern science.

But Lavos energy is simply a form of energy such as heat energy, light energy etc. Now, I'm not familiar with this Matter is energy' theory of which you speak, but matter is certainly not the same type of energy as Lavos' power.

No, he is a well of energy and as such he can use that energy to use magic. Lavos is never spoken of (by citizens of Zeal, at least) as if he has magic, but he is said to have energy and power.

Energy = Power = Magic.

And your proof for this statement is...?

I think he means 'nothing that goes against the rules set down by the game itself'.

Maybe, but the point still stands. Nature is very ill-defined in Chronoverse, and the only things that can really be called "Natural" in any sense of the word without a shadow of a doubt is the Entity.

Hmm... I don't really want to go into that Entity business right now.

[AuraTwilight]

No, I disagree. Magic is the art of manipulating the elements. And MP is a simple gameplay function used in many, many RPGs.

And how does it manipulate them in the first place? For any movement or action at all, energy must be used. This is a fact of physics that even magic adheres to in all forms of fantasy. Whether it applies to scarcity of energy is a different matter altogether. MP is Energy in that it makes things happen at it's cost. Prove it isn't.

You can use a battery to fuel a torch. Why not use Lavos' energy to fuel a spell?

Regardless, the fact that the magic needs energy to fuel it defeats your arguement. Magic = Energy.

But Lavos energy is simply a form of energy such as heat energy, light energy etc. Now, I'm not familiar with this Matter is energy' theory of which you speak, but matter is certainly not the same type of energy as Lavos' power.

Energy can be converted. Light can become heat or kinetic energy. ALL energy can be converted into any other kind of energy. There's no "different types" because they're all the same amorphic thing. As for the Matter=energy theory, it's not so much a theory but a fact, since humankind has observed for almost a century that atoms are merely bundles of atomic energy, it's wavelength so slooooow and condensed that it "crystallized" into matter. The process can go both ways.

If you don't even know the basics about what energy is, don't go around saying what energy is or is not.

And your proof for this statement is...?

Everything I've been saying, which you haven't even been able to effectively counterargue.

Hmm... I don't really want to go into that Entity business right now.

Agreed.

[Kyronea]

If I may quibble over details here, could magic not simply be the result of the manipulation of energy rather than being energy in and of itself, thus essentially both of your arguments are correct? I say this merely in an attempt to stop a debate that appears to be descending into hostility, which is usually not conducive to good debating.

[Mystic Frog King]

No, I disagree. Magic is the art of manipulating the elements. And MP is a simple gameplay function used in many, many RPGs.

And how does it manipulate them in the first place? For any movement or action at all, energy must be used. This is a fact of physics that even magic adheres to in all forms of fantasy. Whether it applies to scarcity of energy is a different matter altogether. MP is Energy in that it makes things happen at it's cost. Prove it isn't.

You can use a battery to fuel a torch. Why not use Lavos' energy to fuel a spell?

Regardless, the fact that the magic needs energy to fuel it defeats your argument. Magic = Energy.

But Lavos energy is simply a form of energy such as heat energy, light energy etc. Now, I'm not familiar with this Matter is energy' theory of which you speak, but matter is certainly not the same type of energy as Lavos' power.

Energy can be converted. Light can become heat or kinetic energy. ALL energy can be converted into any other kind of energy. There's no "different types" because they're all the same amorphic thing. As for the Matter=energy theory, it's not so much a theory but a fact, since humankind has observed for almost a century that atoms are merely bundles of atomic energy, it's wavelength so slooooow and condensed that it "crystallized" into matter. The process can go both ways.

If you don't even know the basics about what energy is, don't go around saying what energy is or is not.+

And so, a torch, because it uses energy, is energy? Your logic is flawed.

See above.

That doesn't change the fact that we are using the same word to talk about different things. And no, it cannot be a fact. You can never prove anything, so as such there is no such thing as facts.

If I may quibble over details here, could magic not simply be the result of the manipulation of energy rather than being energy in and of itself, thus essentially both of your arguments are correct? I say this merely in an attempt to stop a debate that appears to be descending into hostility, which is usually not conducive to good debating.

Well, I would say that it is the manipulation of matter, but your point does stand. Hostility is getting us nowhere.

[AuraTwilight]

And so, a torch, because it uses energy, is energy? Your logic is flawed.

No, but the fire that's created by that torch is, and so is the magic created from a spell. ((To say nothing of my earlier statement of everything technically being an expression of energy anyway.))

[Mystic Frog King]

And so, a torch, because it uses energy, is energy? Your logic is flawed.

No, but the fire that's created by that torch is, and so is the magic created from a spell. ((To say nothing of my earlier statement of everything technically being an expression of energy anyway.))

The analogy is imperfect, maybe. But still, my point stands.

And we've already established that we both mean different things by the word "energy", you using the broader sense of the word.

[AuraTwilight]

and both senses of the word STILL apply to magic. Energy is any force that causes things to happen. Magic is a force that causes things to happen. Done. This is over.