Poll

So, we're nearly all males here. Of a woman 5' 8" tall, who is otherwise ideally beautiful, what is her most attractive weight to you? (Females may answer for themselves.)

< 90 pounds
0 (0%)
100 pounds
2 (11.1%)
120 pounds
6 (33.3%)
140 pounds
7 (38.9%)
160 pounds
1 (5.6%)
180 pounds
1 (5.6%)
200 pounds
1 (5.6%)
220 pounds
0 (0%)
> 250 pounds
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Author Topic: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?  (Read 14196 times)

Matt Shadows

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #15 on: July 26, 2006, 01:27:49 pm »
Shit.

Rat

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #16 on: July 26, 2006, 01:37:44 pm »


Anyway, I suppose prejudice is bad but, hey, it just exists Lord J. Like I said, I'm 145lb and 6', which is incredibly scrawny. I look very gaunt, in fact. That puts me in rather the same position, you know? You might say that guys have a prejudice against overweight women, but I can tell you that women are just the same against scrawny guys. It's a two-way thing.



Actually, I know quite a few girls who regularly date skinny guys, or find them attractive. Just like I know quite a few guys who date girls who are a bit overweight.

I seem to see a lot of couples that consist of a girl who is overweight and a guy who is bony too.

Hadriel

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #17 on: July 26, 2006, 01:46:04 pm »
Quote from: Lord J
*snip*

If you typed something like this at OCR or SA, they'd flay you alive.  I'm not sure whether that's justifiable or not.  On the one hand, excessively fat people often do have poor social skills, poor grades, and just about everything else that would mark them as inferior.  On the other hand, such prejudice isn't much different than racism, if it's different at all.

As far as harassment of fat people, shame is undeniably a powerful motivating factor in getting someone to do something.  Conversely, it may also be a powerful motivating factor to sit around and feel hopeless, which can lead to further weight gain.

Being rail-thin is bad, too.  I don't date Stalfos.  As far as I know, neither does anyone else, except maybe other Stalfos.

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #18 on: July 26, 2006, 04:45:25 pm »
I think that 'heavier' girls can be totally sexy and definately cute. I don't really hold any sorts of restrictions in that sense towards girls...My only rule so far as weight is that they can't be under my own weight by more than about 15-20 lbs (at my current weight of around 110)...Because then they just look like sickly little freaks that probably have way too heavy issues or something...And who needs that? I suppose the same can be said for the obscenely overweight...but I'm not sure exactly what my lines are in that direction...

*shrugs*

So, basically, whatever, I guess.

Lord J Esq

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #19 on: July 26, 2006, 11:13:07 pm »
Hmm, a thing I am wondering about is possibly the psychology of your posting what could essentially be a college paper on the subject, especially as you mention that you expect yourself to be considered overweight/possibly obese in the future, and more, glad of it. Yet you seem very concerned about the conceptions/prejudices people have about overweight people.

That's an interesting post, Rat.

I say that I expect myself to be overweight in the future for two reasons: The first reason is that I like to eat! Accepting the ramification of that is just honesty in action. I'm not planning a systematic campaign to get fat, but I do go try and go for that extra helping of food when I feel like it, much in the same way people express their desire to lose weight by doing the opposite. The second reason I said I expect myself to be overweight someday is that the thought of being fat does not inspire the sort of dread in me that it does in most people; rather the opposite. I like it. Now, you might ask yourself how anybody could like the thought of being fat, but you would be forgetting that the reason this question occurs to you so intuitively is that you've grown up in a culture where fat prejudice is very strong. In the grand scheme of things, "fat" is just one more point of interest in the national park of human fascinations. Even if a fondness for fat doesn't make sense to you--a question you can mull over on your own time--you can at least take the lesson that people's viewpoints and tastes can be so diverse!

However, my oddball fascination with fat and my disgust at the bigotry directed against fatness are two unrelated things, that only happen to overlap in a roundabout way. The reason I'm concerned about "the prejudices people have about overweight people," as you put it, is not because I worry about being a target myself--you should know by now that I have no interest in winning the approval of petty people--but rather because the prejudice itself is just so darn...well...wrong. It's almost the most virulent prejudice in society today; the only one that is still universally acceptable, and the degree of hatred that it elicits from people is just stunning. This bigotry can dehumanize people to the point where their worth as sentient beings comes into question. And the suffering inflicted upon people who are fat is something I have witnessed all too often. It serves no purpose other than to hurt and to diminish these people's quality of life, and it is a waste and a disgrace.

Assuming that you are straight and white, possibly you're more worried about people aiming their prejudices at you in the future, and this worry has worked itself out in an abundance of text?

Now, what does "straight and white" have to do with the rest of your sentence? What does it have to do with anything? Maybe you have some other prejudices to work out, too.

But, as to your proposal: No, I am not worried about being discriminated against in the future. I certainly don't relish the prospect of it, but in absolute terms I just don't care as much about social posturing as many people do. The people whose esteem I covet are not likely to lose their respect of me for putting on a layer of fat.

And what you see as an "abundance of text" is simply par for the course when it comes to me writing down my thoughts. The only fear I have in this arena is trying to explain my point of view properly, because I would hate for people to misunderstand me on such a charged topic.

....Although I am curious who think 120lbs is ideal for someone 5'8. Geez that's freaking skinny. What about T&A!?

That is skinny; maybe not "freaking" skinny, but certainly well down the light-weight end of the graph. In the military, female weight ideals for a height of 5' 8" are just over 150 pounds. You can expect that some of that is additional musculature that may not be necessary in most avenues of civilian life, but mostly that is the correct number for a 5' 8" woman's physically ideal weight. Therefore, all of these votes in our poll for 120 and 140 pounds indicate a rather unsettling trend: Most men don't like full-sized women.

Instead, women are discouraged from achieving their full healthy weight both in terms of body fat percentage and muscular mass. In short, women are encouraged to be the junior partner in a male-female pairing. Here's something I can add to the discussion today, which I had meant to touch upon last night but failed to for lack of time:

One of the vehicles of misogynist sexism in all human societies is that the feminine ideal is consistently skewed toward the realm of neoteny. Neoteny is a rather disturbing tendency which, in this context, distorts the ideal female form away from that of an adult and toward that of a child--a girl. Small stature--including thinness and shortness--as well as lack of body hair, high voice, weakness and submissiveness...all of these things are characteristics of children, and yet they are also typical statements of female beauty.

I actually think it's a bit creepy that somehow our entire culture freely embraces what is basically a weak flavor of pedophilia. It is as if men were originally so contemptuous of women whose presence might loom as heavily as theirs. Men don't tend to prefer women who are larger, stronger, more strongly-scented, more confident, more intelligent, or more ambitious than they are. This preference has become so entreched that it has even contributed to an increase in our sexual dimorphism, so that, today, women all over the world are smaller and weaker than their male counterparts--because that is held to be attractive...not just by men, by by women too! It is very near the root of sexism.

Aren't those the longest poll AND longest post ever in a same topic?

Lord J should be in the Chrono Guiness  :lee:

Chrono Guiness...hmm...

Chrono world records...Interesting idea.

Guinness happens to be humanity's crowning achievement when it comes to beer. I'm not a beer fan, but Guinness is to beer what Josh is to the masses.

Interesting sidenote: The Guinness Book of World Records owes its namesake to the very same folks who produce Guinness the beer. The book of records began as a publicity stunt and succeeded so wildly that it took on a life of its own.

Another interesting sidenote, more apropos to this topic: The Guinness Book of World Records stopped recording "fattest person" statistics several years back...because apparently they were unsettled by the fact that people were actually trying to break the record.

Well, for me its just personal preference but I'd have to say maybe 120 or 140, just because I think women prefer a guy who's heavier than they are. As such, being merely 145lb at 6ft tall...

Actually, maybe I should have voted different because, thinking about it, that's too light. I have a little sister who's maybe 5'8, and she probably weighs 140lb, but isn't overweight. So I guess up to 160lb would be fine as well.

And what do you mean by "160 lbs would be fine as well"? Do you mean that you would still be able to find women (of the given height) attractive up to that weight, or were you saying that you would no longer approve of their weight once they exceeded that mark?

Anyway, I suppose prejudice is bad but, hey, it just exists Lord J.

That's an interesting remark, coming from you. And I see you meant it to be taken in more than one way. But we'll refrain from that argument for today. In the meanwhile, we can at least agree that prejudices which serve no purpose, even though they may exist, are not something whose continued existence we should bolster, support, accept, or ignore.

Like I said, I'm 145lb and 6', which is incredibly scrawny. I look very gaunt, in fact. That puts me in rather the same position, you know? You might say that guys have a prejudice against overweight women, but I can tell you that women are just the same against scrawny guys. It's a two-way thing.

Yes, you're certainly right. This isn't a topic about prejudice against scrawny men, but I agree with you that it exists and is often detrimental. Nonetheless...that's not what we're talking about here. We're not even talking about overweight women in particular; I simply used that in the poll to hook people into the discussion. (That, and I have a genuine curiosity to see how these people's attitudes toward women's weight lies.) Rather, this is a thread about all fat-bashing prejudice.

Okay, I admit I only read about half of that essay.

I'm sure you read more than most. =)

But that last line... 180lb? Well, that seems decidedly odd to me. I mean, all the people in my family are tall. My little 12 year old sister is something like 5'5, and the older one is at least 5'8. My mother is 5'10. And none of them are anywhere near 180lb - maybe 160lb at most. Neither are they overly thin, save for one sister who just seems to have that in her genetic disposition... but even she is 120lb at 13!

You must simply be failing to appreciate how overweight people in America have become. It's happening all over the industrialized world now, but America is still the furthest along. The "totally average" man is 5' 9" and weighs about 190 pounds, while the totally average woman is about 5' 4" and weighs 160 pounds. Carry that out to a height of 5' 8" for women, calculate the new average, and you get something like 190 pounds. Then factor out the detail that women continue to gain weight until their midlife, and you derive a value of approximately 180 pounds for the average, 5' 8", 20-year-old American woman.

Look at the spread! Most people here prefer a woman of about 130 pounds, but the ideal female weight for this height is 150 pounds...and the actual average weight for these women is 180 pounds! Your tastes are definitely skewed toward the skinny...which is bizarre, because I pegged you for somebody who pays little attention to the Hollywood message of Skinny At All Costs!

But, hey, if someone's a little overweight, I guess I could live with that. I'm not the sort that's motivated purely by physical looks, you know?

So, your tolerance for female attractability encompasses "a little overweight"--not as something you might like, but as something you would be willing to tolerate. How generous. But at least you are honest enough to admit your prejudice.

There! I went easy on you. =)

Thanks for posting in a Lord J, Esq. topic. It always takes an extra degree of courage to do that if you're Daniel Krispin.

I think that 'heavier' girls can be totally sexy and definately cute. I don't really hold any sorts of restrictions in that sense towards girls...My only rule so far as weight is that they can't be under my own weight by more than about 15-20 lbs (at my current weight of around 110)...Because then they just look like sickly little freaks that probably have way too heavy issues or something...And who needs that? I suppose the same can be said for the obscenely overweight...but I'm not sure exactly what my lines are in that direction...

*shrugs*

So, basically, whatever, I guess.

Truly, you have achieved the least-prejudiced reply of all, thus far. Nicely done, V.

ZeaLitY

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #20 on: July 26, 2006, 11:47:48 pm »
Looks like I dodged a reply.

Lord J Esq

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2006, 12:06:28 am »
Looks like I dodged a reply.

Your reply stands nicely on its own! However, if you wanted my thoughts in response, I'll see what I can do.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2006, 12:07:15 am »
Yeah, a bit of a cynical comment there. I generally don't think human nature can be changed, thus prejudices are bound to last. The best one can do is be cynical about it.

But yeah, Lord J, I've often wondered why I'd think in a bit of a prejudiced manner. I'm fully aware of the fact of skinny/fat attractiveness being a product of culture. I admit it does bug me a bit that I can't seem to get myself over thinking like that. But I guess that was the point of your making this subject, wasn't it? So, honestly, I know I'm prejudiced in this regard. Not as much as some - I put at least an equal weight in character and personality, and in fact would probably be a little creeped out by someone being too thin - but it does exist as one of those inborn responses that one tries to rationally resist.

I suppose my comment on ideal being 130-160 is because it is in my own weight category, as it were. In the same way that I'd prefer someone of similar interests and intelligence (and I've heard it said that opposities attract, but I don't believe it), I prefer someone much more like me. I'd be just as reluctant to consider someone whose character strikes me as being shallow. That said, I can't say any of these things with absolute certainty, as chance can have a strange way with some thing. But you said ideal, so that's why I was thinking in that way.

Matt Shadows

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2006, 12:28:16 am »
Sorry to be off topic again but please tell me the site's runnin slow for the rest of you and it's not just me. Every other site loads in a flash but this one is horribly slow now. In some cases it won't let me view a page. as I type it says transferring document 39%.

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2006, 02:01:49 am »
Tsk, tsk Josh. First I need to comment on your form on two points (although they are related). First, your poll is an invalid one, that is, you cannot draw meaningful results. Say I put down 140lbs, as the woman I find most attractive in my life weighs near that. Then you put 160, for the same reason. You then leap and say "Ah ha, Radical_Dreamer, you are part of the problem!" But the question of weight does not give the whole picture of fatness. If I am thinking of a woman who is 5'5" and you are thinking of a woman who is 5'8", neither of us is thinking of a woman who is particularly fat or particularuly thin. Personally, that is what I find attractive. Not too fat, not too skinny. "Healthy" is the descriptor I like to give, and I think it is appropriate. I like a woman who's weight suits her body. You pull this in your response. You say that 150lbs is what the army says is ideal for a woman who is 5'8", and decide that polls resulting lower weights show an attraction to women who are too skinny. But, as you rightly indicate, a military woman will have more muscle mass than a civilian woman (thus more total weight), and has a good four inches on the average woman. You're complainging that people find attractive a woman who is lighter than a woman who is significantly taller and more muscular that the average woman!

On to the topic at hand, though. In the interest of disclosure, I stand 5'11" tall and weigh about 185lbs with about a 16% body fat ratio. I walk 4+ miles a day, although that's as much for my mental health as my physical health. So I'm near the border for overweight by the BMI standard (which is not one I consider to be valid) just on the overweight side. I've hovered about the border most of my adult life, sometimes a little over, sometimes a little under. I was a chubby kid when I was younger, but puberty was kind to me in that regard. I think that the prejudice is certainly overblown in our society. It's a complex issue. As I mentioned, I don't find overly skinny or overly fat women attractive. Neither is adaptive. Ultimately, thought it can be heavily modified by social stigma (see the times of Ruben versus the 90's) signs of attractiveness are fertility signs. All atractiveness is born from the desire to mate. I should point out that under about 10% body fat, women stop menstrating. So if you find women that skinny attractive, you've got a problem. On the other hand, obesity is not attractive because it isn't adaptive, either. Josh downplayed this, but yes, there are health problems that come with obesity, for example, diabetes. When I am looking for a partner, I want someone who is healthy. Obesity in my mind conjures health problems, and that's not attractive either in the immediate or in the reproductive senses of it. That said, while I will not date a woman who is too fat or too skinny, though I have dated women who were both a bit over and under weight for their height, I do not think good will come of openly mocking these people. My vote is to let people live with the consequences of their actions. Too a large degree, weight is an issue of choice, via lifestyle. If I stopped walking, I'd gain weight. If I cut back on the candy, I'd lose weight. People need to just be responsible for their own actions, diet included.

Matt Shadows

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2006, 02:12:39 am »
Hey my girl is a little on the plump side but just a little. Big booty though. I say somewhere around 130 to 150. about 5'4 or 5'5. But hey she is the sexiest thing ever in my eyes. I'm also (so embarrassing) a big kid. 6'0..... 220 lbs. Ok I'm a fat ass. The Allmighty Matt Shadows is a fat fuck.

*feels self-conscious and runs to room to cry*

Rat

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #26 on: July 27, 2006, 02:58:48 am »
The reason I'm concerned about "the prejudices people have about overweight people," as you put it, is not because I worry about being a target myself--you should know by now that I have no interest in winning the approval of petty people--but rather because the prejudice itself is just so darn...well...wrong.

True enough as it may be that you have no interest in "winning the approval of petty people," most people for the most part still worry to some extent how others view them or percieve them as being.  Not really related to anything, and could lead into a variety of thoughts, but I'm running on little sleep and just got off of work, so I doubt I could explain myself coherantly if I tried to follow it through. So why am I even writing? I don't know. Okay, moving on...

Now, what does "straight and white" have to do with the rest of your sentence? What does it have to do with anything? Maybe you have some other prejudices to work out, too.

"Straight and white" mainly in the context that assuming you are straight, white and male, I also assume that you do not necessarily deal with the amount of prejudice that certain other people might. Of course, arguably, straight, white males are the only people in the United States that it is socially acceptable to show open prejudice to - I have heard this point before - but I have yet to see people stare at a white boy suspiciously and for no good, conceivable reason for fear of being mugged as I have seen people do with my black friends, and I rarely hear of instances of someone white who can speak perfectly fine English being told to go back to their own country - which has happened to Asian people I know who speak perfectly fine English. And while some females do make rather sexist remarks towards males (usually most especially in frustration, or the annoying habit that some women have of not attempting to be equal, but to be superior) you do not really hear of men being held back in any way for these remarks. Nor do you hear of straight males being beaten to near death or ostracized for their sexual preference. Of course there are probably exceptions and examples proving that such occasions of prejudice do occur to straight, white males, but by far it is more unusual and less likely to occur, and as such, I also take in an assumption that possibly you yourself have never, or at least very very rarely, experienced any extreme discrimination.

But then this is ignoring religion, the possibility that you have traveled out of the country and met people/met a lot of people online who hate all Americans, and the possibility that you have met/know people who are minorities who have an extreme prejudice towards white people - which is a lot to ignore. But I was more interested in the one point possibility that you were more worried about prejudice aimed at you than in anything else, which possibly prompted the thoughts in the first place. Also add in the factor that I'm fairly apathetic about most things and I didn't really care that I was taking too much on assumption. So sue me. But don't. I'm very broke.

Also, the main reason that I think that 120lbs at 5'8 is considered incredibly skinny is because I'm 5'3 and have been told by a variety of people that the "ideal" weight for me should be 115-120lbs - for some people to consider that ideal for someone who is also 5 inches taller than me is a bit disturbing.

So... since everyone seems to be mentioning their height/weight in this thread, I'll jump on the bandwagon for the heck of it.
5'3 or 5'4, or at least somwhere in between. 155-160lbs (fluctuates dependent on how much/what I eat within a week).
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 03:01:34 am by Rat »

Ramsus

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #27 on: July 27, 2006, 06:55:29 am »
Study: More Americans too fat for X-rays, scans

Lose some fucking weight America.

Burning Zeppelin

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Re: The FAT Topic: What do you think about this weighty issue?
« Reply #28 on: July 27, 2006, 07:01:11 am »
Screw reading long posts, I'm just going to say something.

I am 174cm (5.7 feet) and 65kg (140 pounds). Some people call me fat. Some people call me skinny. I don't care. People that insult people based on weight are as stupid as people who insult people based on skin colour, or gender, or religion. Believe what you want, I say, but we don't fucking give a shit what your opinion is, so keep it to yourself.

At that, weight isn't a problem. You can be 39299kg, and you can still be healthy. What does matter is body mass index.

The poll means nothing too. What I find attractive doesn't change my view on people, so it can't exactly be adding to the problem. If I said I don't find black people or white people or any sort of race attractive, most people would call me racist. How is that racist? It is actually the reverse; the person who would call me racist would be the racist, because they are judging that person by race.

Just wanted to vent, I don't think it is relevant.

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