Author Topic: Magic in CT and CC  (Read 44422 times)

Darmani

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My Take on some magic issues and events
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2004, 02:59:28 am »
Its really the difference from building a fire and then cooking your food to...well having your personal caterer.

Lavos's "smart" energy only needed to be channeled (a complicated process but who here directs the functions of their car every time they drive.  They turn the damn key and check their mirros and steer) and told what to do.  In reality the Zealians had long since lost their mojo they were just yanking the sapient energy of Lavos dreaming with the Dreamstone formed and fashioned into a machine that would do so.  Obviously many safeties, converters and yadda yadda.  But the more they tapped Lavos's energy the more of Lavos's dream/mind or a perception of him spread.    In exceptionals like Zeal, Schala, and Janus this made them deimgods or "marlins" or WHATEVER.  But the thing is Zeal seems to reach a burnout point.

She's still human but her Lavossoul/madness is cutting off her ability to use magic. She's not a human manipulating smart energy she's an extension of Lavos with virtually no Lavos power.  Perhaps the overtaking of her dreams by Lavos and these dreams of her conscious mind scatter her communing ability with the Mammon Machine/dreamstone.  She is essentially a nightmare in human flesh so she can't use Dreamstone anymore.  Hence her desperate need of Schala who gets the different exposure only she was born with more capacity to channel (inheriting some tolerance from her Mother and Lavos's instinctive energy evolving her) and used her power sparingly over time.

Very drug like.  Too much at once, OD and you're dead.  Too many over time and you get complications and the stuff stops working at giving you the effect you wanted but you need it to function basically.  In the right amounts over time witn a little talent you might unlike certain features or developments induced from the use you couldn't get without it.

In normal Zealites it was like an addiction that enticed them to use the smart energy more and their own natural talent to manipulate the Fire element directly atrophied. This trait/flaw is- despite our real life understanding of hereditarism..nism, whatever- passed down through the populace.  The capacity to use magic spreads but also the inability to use it.  It needs to have smart energy or SOMETHING done to unlock it.  Maybe because of the breeding wit hthe mystically luddite Earthbound made so a temporary scarring became a dominate trait (ex. someone who loses an arm in an accident falls in love with someone who was born without one and they produce one armed/limb defficient  babies)

Like missing a set of muscles in a torn arm you can physical therapy to train other muscles to pick up the slack and in miraculous cases repair the loss.  Spekkio is very advanced with magic.  He both gave it to you but in such a way he doesn't overtake you (well maybe he does) but stims and heals the breach.  A wizards training or initiation or martial art skills (which at the esoteric levels become godlike magic see kungfu comics, Dragon Ball Z, Exalted, Journey West etc.) can help you unlock some energy manipulations.  Some have some much Zeal blood or a mutt's accumulation of natural magical leaning or are born in such high mystical areas they get magic.

Some beings just are so far into magic they are different.  These are the Mystics.  This exposure makes them not human.  Whether thay are different species joining into one faction or races in the D&D-concept of fey sense (everyone can breed with each other for unique and interesting results but usually imp sticks to imp, naga-ettes to naga's or gnashers, etc)   or actually different species that only have psychokinetic and magical abilities innate to them as a common thread...well they ain't human.  Magus and Schala AREN'T unique in that they have special powers its that they are human (well in outward appearance) and have special power and talent that puts them above others in their era.

Whereras the Earthbound lack Dreamstone/sweetwater enhanced skills and hope and progress and alot (mostly due to the gross social and natural sitch) the Laruba and Ioka could develop down right frightening skills and powers (Spekkio even SAYS so) and even technology and techniques that eclipse magic.  I think Spekkio really denied Ayla   not because Ayla was too unadvanced as a person or biologically but to protect the timeline.

 A rule of time might be certain things can't exist before their creation.  Magic is one of them.  Also if Ayla had magic if/when she goes back home she'll wreak the future just by having it.  In the past Ayla's people scrapped by without magic as did the MANY generations after them until it was developed and discoverred or something to stay alive.  If Ayla has magic she royally screws with history because that's a physical and constantly effecting thing she has that would just by existing be very harmful.  She may also possibly pass this capacity onto her kids.

In Chrono Trigger your physical history changes some but your mental/spiritual one remains the same.  So Marle is erased but recalls being erased, Crono knows Marle was erased- he saw it happen, Lucca remembers Marle/ectera.  Unless you do something really stupid like kill your grandfather you won't change in a harmful way. Also note that it seems anytime the gang is changing history they're in their relative present- which is normal you always change the future in the present no harm-, outside the normal flow of time in the end of time-so you're on a quiet lull as opposed to the storm un fwapped by the winds-, or outside of time already which means the effect moving forward won't catch you unless its a complete impossiblty for you to exist as you are something serious.  Crono knowing about Lavos isn't an impossibilty because data and minds seems to be just out of the correction's reach IF they are time travelling and are in a sapient's mind.  Even then there is some fusging going on.  Its a consequence of time/dimension travel in Chronoverse.

Also it will rarely cause harm.  Time is an entity or the planet is the entity mucking with time it.  Science can be used to understand it but recall as a living thing it will behave...irregularly from its base noted behaviours.  So don't think in pure complete logic with CT travel all the time.

Think of it like convincing a pretty openminded and roll with the punches person.  It probably knows "Ayla telling a tale of floating citys, men of metal from a world many many seasons after tomorrow will be no more harmful than if she dreamed the thing up and told it to others.  Her experience changed her and those changes will flow through time but really its not going to cause that much trouble."

"Ayla having an impossible trait she couldn't have and that's harnessing and development effects the history of the planet/lavos/humanity/all will really FUBAR the sitch. Deny her magic at all costs."

Even more than if she takes the entire Chrono inventory with her history where Ayla has magic is screwwed.  Items degrade and go back into the Earth.  They get used up.  At best technology will be sped up some but what with the whole hostile environment and tide of history things will change but not go bad. Not destroy humanity bad anyways.  Instead of causing a disasterous paradox it will just cause a potent change."

BTW the disaster was Zeal sucking up WAY to much of Lavos's energy causing it to awaken grouchy  And its mind kinda patchy and stuff.  Its brain is VERY large and complicated as is its mind.  It spotted threats and tossed them through gates to eliminate them nice and neat so as to avoid a fight.  In the original sequence it blasted the Mammon machine or just figgured out how to stop the gravy train.  


Zeal falls.  When you interfere you confront and fight it and Queen Zeal doesn't end up dead.  Lavos rewards her or she finally establishes her own connection and creates the Dlack Dream/Omen.  Its also a defense mechanism.  It acts as a funnel  for Lavos to eye the world and protect itself. PErceiving events out of time or using logical deduction (Janus's presence as a fully grown adult probably tipped it off that it needed to make something more...aggressive in its establishment/defense and it needed to be something that worked by mainpulating time).

This is GREAT for Zeal she becomes an avatar for Lavos.  Lavos gets a little out of it by having a blatant and quicker means to act on the Earth and combat nonlinear temporal threats as to his slow diffusion or wait until someone finds me method.  For the most part the Dream just stands there.  It probably elminates temporal threats before they start if only by standing around and creating an aura/superstition of grand fear about itself. Note it is after the Omen rises we find mother brain went crazy.  That may have been a change to history.


Lavos couldn't gate the Chrono crew because the Mammon Machine was damaged by the red knife becoming the Masamune at that time and.. compared to the three Gurus, Zeal,  and all your party is thought of as such threat that Lavos's equivalent of autodefense takes care of you.

The way you get to lavos is you attack him in a blind spot.  A time he either discounts you (ocean palace) or is so commited to his current course of action he doesn't want to screw it up by ya know sending you into a past you could do something about it (Day of Lavos) or isn't fast enough (crashing the Epoch into Lavos) or weakened by your slaughtering of his hybrid dream/palace (if you go through the Black Omen) gating you away is too much for him. Also you're out of history and connected to the End of Time at this point which you've filled with gates to lead back to him.  If he knows this he knows its just a temporary measure at best.  Sure in game you never can but how much you willing to bet if Lavos puled his trick the other members of your team or the Wings of Time itself will rush to your aide and take you back to the battle.  Mabe you just naturally end up at the end of time without having to double back through a portal.  congrats Lavos they're back wit hthe epoch and going to ram you.

koolkame

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« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2005, 07:33:35 pm »
Darmani:
Quote
I think Spekkio really denied Ayla not because Ayla was too unadvanced as a person or biologically but to protect the timeline.



I never thought of it that way. Cool.

As for Zeal, I always thought of her as the original Arbiter and very likely what Serge would have ended up like. Several fanfics I've read have suggested an Anakin Skywalker-like descent into darkness for CC's protagonist. I think Zeal was greedy but sane up until Lavos destroyed the Ocean Palace and the Space Bug chose her to safeguard against the Entity and the heroes, corrupting her like your drug analogy. A little off-topic, sorry.

sarua

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« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2005, 06:27:23 pm »
Quote
I think Spekkio really denied Ayla not because Ayla was too unadvanced as a person or biologically but to protect the timeline.


So why he gave magic to others? Didn`t they ruined true timeline?

Darmani

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« Reply #33 on: January 11, 2005, 09:31:57 pm »
Probably because they could actually have magic in their time.  It was extremely rare but it existed in 1000 AD.  And in 600 it was very abundant and many thought Frog was a mystic anyway and they believed in magic saving swords and regularly (if primarily aggressively) interact with species that toss out magic.

sarua

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« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2005, 11:13:41 am »
Maybe, but then in ayla timeline what could she ruined whith magic? she would die of age and her magic would perish, and there certainly wouldn`t left any legends that someone used magic back then so that theory imho isn`t acurate

Darmani

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« Reply #35 on: January 12, 2005, 11:25:57 pm »
That's an enormous if.

Magic is a discpline and a science and a skill well its LIKE those things.  Which is more damaging bringing a plane back with you to 1600 Italy or bringing an aeronautical engineer and pilot?

Chrono Trigger implies the latter over the former.  Hello Chrono Cross does as well.  If Ayla had magic she could give it to others or others would study or start using it before it was even invented/dawned.  If magic comes from the planet this is bad.  If magic is very key to the timeline things could get very bad.

I will retract Ayla having magic is more damaging than her having the whole inventory though.  I can't prove it with my current motivation.  But I still believe it.  I mean what are cavemen going to do with a Gate Key or volkswagen sized computer anyway if they're freezing to death and want food.

GrayLensman

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« Reply #36 on: January 12, 2005, 11:55:55 pm »
By your reasoning, why can't Robo use magic?

Darmani

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« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2005, 12:34:35 am »
Spekkio said he can't sense Robo's character so he would not give him magic.  Though his laser weapons could do Shadow damage.

I am not twisting Spekkio's words much just taking them at a different point of view.  Maybe Robots (considering objects and other machines seem to use magic or have magical effects. . .) can use magic in Chrono-verse its just Robo wasn't built or empowerred to do so.

V_Translanka

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« Reply #38 on: January 23, 2005, 04:17:53 pm »
But again, I don't know if I've stated this here or not, but Ayla too has attacks that dish out Magic damage or are Magical in nature. Tail Spin is an example. One way to know this is that the attack harms Spekkio, who is immune to all atacks outside of the Magically inclined.

Faulce

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« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2005, 12:16:11 am »
Well, with tail spin, Ayla is using the wind as her attack. Wind seems to be associated with Lightning (or perhaps Shadow), in the game so she is using an element, which magic is made up of.  If Crono's Lightning attack damages Spekkio, why wouldnt a normal lightning bolt?

GrayLensman

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« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2005, 01:22:04 am »
If the wind was causing damage, such as Crono's Slash technique, it would be Lightning elemental.

Swordmaster

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« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2005, 09:35:00 pm »
Just a case to study:
What happens with some magics like Guile' s third tech and ConductaRod from Dark Dario that are Black elemental but show  a thunder sfx?

Faulce

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« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2005, 11:32:03 pm »
Quote from: Swordmaster
Just a case to study:
What happens with some magics like Guile' s third tech and ConductaRod from Dark Dario that are Black elemental but show  a thunder sfx?

Well maybe its not thunder/lighting but just black elemental energy represented in that form. Crono's strongest attack is Luminaire, but its not really Lightning-like at all, its just the way the element is represented  for that attack. Although the name ConductaRod is lightingish... weird

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« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2005, 02:09:35 am »
With Luminaire though, you have to take into account the fact that it isn't Lighting, and in fact Crono's Magical innate isn't really even "Lightning", but Heaven or Heavenly.

Fox

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« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2005, 09:44:44 pm »
Well here is my theory, although iI probably haven't though it out NEARLY as much as you guys:

    All beings have their own magical energy. Most, however, do not know how to harness it.  Around the time that Zeal was founded,someone discovered how to harness the Sunstone's energy. This person taught others (the Enlightened ones), although some people (Earthbound ones) just didn't get it. At some point , Lavos's energy was discovered, and as it was more powerful than that of the sunstone, the sunstone was abandoned and people started using Lavos energy instead.  Sometime during all this, a very small number of people (Let's say 3. Let's also say the Gurus) learned how to actually harness their own energy. But, when they tried to teach others, they wouldn't listen, because Lavos energy was more powerful anyways, and all of the Enlightened ones, save maybe one *cough* Janus *cough* could harness it. I believe that Schala was just really really good at harnessing energy from   sources other than (and possibly also) herself. The reason most of the people said that Janus seemed to posses no magical ability was simply because he couldn't harness Lavos's energy. If I recall correctly, the one Zealian who said that Janus had more power than Schala actually said that one of the gurus said that Janus had more power than Schala. And don't you think the gurus would be able to tell? Who knows, they may have even taught him some magic. Or Ozzie could've taught him, or hell, he may have figured it out himself. Anyways, I'm pretty sure that the during the fall of Zeal, everyone who could actually use their own magic was gated. And I'm also pretty sure that the sun stone also became unreachable. And they sure as hell couldn't go back to using Lavos, so the Enlightened ones couldn't use magic anymore, simply because all of the methods that they knew how to use had become impossible. And there was probably a lot of prejudice against those who figured out how to use their own magic afterwards, to the point where nobody who COULD use their own magic told anyone. Also, magical "techs" require no knowledge of magic and are used instinctively.

Thus when Spekkio teaches your group members magic, he simply teaches them how to harness their energy in whatever form he decides is appropriate. Thias is suggested by him saying "Well, you're a frog, so lete's give you water." He probably decided on Chrono's, Lucca's, and Marle's in a similar fashion. He didn't teach Robo because Robo isn't techjnically a living being, and therefore can't use magic. He didn't teach Ayla for one of two possible reasons: A.Giving someone from that early magic could potentially screw up the timeline a LOT. or B.He didn't think Ayla would be capable of understanding.

I also believe that the Elements are a way of harnessing the energy of the planet itself, much like with the sun stone, only with a more specifiic purpose for each one.