J and tush, I think you two need to step back and take a breather. We've never had an atmosphere here that discouraged arguments, and I see little reason for that to change. However, I think everyone benefits most when the people involved in an argument are lobbing their best stuff at each other, and addressing the ideologies that have taken root in one another's minds, rather than resorting to personal jabs. There's a fine line there for sure, but I may not be the only onlooker who suspects it's long been crossed. Your rivalry now looks little different than school kids spray painting "tush sucks!" and "J's a big meanie!" on competing walls. Just with bigger words.
I've gotten to know both of you (I think) fairly well over the past few years, and I want to tell you both something I'm pretty confident I've learned about the other.
J: tushantin wants to learn, and to grow. His time in this environment has enriched him. There's not a speck of doubt in my mind that I've seen it happen, and this is why I respect him as a friend and artist. That he would take the time to slave over a series of posts that are as long as some pieces of legislation shows that he's willing to go down the road of exploring these issues; his understanding may not be as deep as you desire to see, and it may be colored by his local culture in a way that appears as if it will always remain with him to some degree -- but that's how the rest of us all start out. From what I can tell, tushantin's exploration of sexual equality is something that's gradually yawned open over the past year, and I'm sure he's received plenty of encouragement to do so thanks to this environment. Writing him off as "evil" when he's still setting out on his journey can only seem counter-productive to me. There comes a point when a social champion must write off certain people, true, but I think your objective would benefit if you're willing to engage with people over a longer scale, so long as they give a signal that they're open to growing further.
Secondly, I'd like to make a suggestion that should probably go in your philosophy feedback thread, but if you'll oblige me I'll leave it here. I've gotten the sense that your insights are most effective when you focus on concepts and not the people who hold them; as an example, your commentary on fat prejudice had a very quick impact on me when you first raised it here, and made me realize that my own bigotedness toward fat was really, well, just my own desire to be bigoted against something. Fat bigotry is something of a cultural artifact I think, and perhaps those are where your ammunition is best directed. Had we gotten into a debate on it while I was still fat-bigoted, I'm sure I would have drawn on the common cultural wisdom out of my natural fight-or-flight response -- which I think applies just as much to Internet forums as it does in real life. When going cross-culture, you may not necessarily require first-hand experience with things given your particular way of thinking, but you may do well to tango directly with the cultural artifacts as they arise in conversation.
I want to make it clear I'm not saying this only out of a desire to reduce tension in the community -- I'm also drawing on my great love of efficiency. With regard to the former concern, people still hold cultural artifacts dear inasmuch as these give them a sense of place and belonging, so I'm not sure it would really reduce tension on average anyway. I'm reminded of the meaning tushantin finds in the Indian bracelet ritual he spoke of earlier, where the brother swears to protect the sister -- this is something very important to him on a fundamental level, so I'm sure he would report that our criticism of it riled him up. However, there is still an element of the argument that could sink in: if women are taught defensive techniques with the rigor men are in whatever culture, the outcome could be superior. Contrast this with, "tushantin is evil, and he's not worthy of my insights," which is how your latest post in this thread comes across. Secondly, if I may draw on Thought's love of analogy: your approach has been something like the Ebola virus, slamming people mercilessly at the center and in whole; HIV probably does a lot more work over a longer period of time targeting all those individual antibodies the body could draw on to resist, but last I heard, HIV has claimed way more territory than Ebola. You may take my report as just one more anecdote in any case.
tush: You can rest assured J is just as willing to slam an American as he would any Indian he happens to encounter. J is frequently overbearing simply because his mind exists outside most of our reference points; I take him at his word when he says he's figured things out completely on his own, without much cultural absorption factoring into his thinking. If you can look past his abrasiveness I think you'll find some very interesting pieces of wisdom you wouldn't have found anywhere else, and that's why I respect him as a friend and artist. J's insights are the kind that are best appreciated over time; given how far the angst between you has grown, you may very well decide that further interaction is useless, but you may reflect on at least of few of the things he's said with warmth after much time has passed, if you can imagine that!
To you both: The biggest problem point I've seen is your mutual tendency to rush in at one another right after he's made a post on a subject that you've argued on previously. I can provide one example for each of you, and analysis upon request, but I have a feeling you've both sensed this anyway. Waiting can be a valuable skill, and is indeed appreciated by members who also feel strongly on these subjects but may not have the time to post for a few days; I've found that the amount of time we have to spend here waxes and wanes as things in our non-Internet lives take us, and giving some time for our cycles to match up may be worth it in the long run. That one or the other of you posts doesn't constitute an immediate emergency; furthermore, if you allow a few more people in the room, you may find that the resulting atmosphere has a way of clearing the air and dissipating the force of emotion that can get wrapped up in your communications.
I was tempted to direct you both to the "Ignore User" button, but whaddaya know -- we don't have one here that I can find! My hope is that if you take some time off from one another, you can get back to a level of debate that's worthwhile for you both later.
