Poll

Which side do you support?

Israel
6 (40%)
Arabs
2 (13.3%)
Neither
7 (46.7%)

Total Members Voted: 14

Voting closed: April 07, 2006, 04:23:01 pm

Author Topic: Israeli-Palestinian conflict  (Read 12069 times)

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2006, 08:33:53 am »
Quote from: Legend of the Past
We can't share a country with the Arabs. Not because of differences, but because they breed so quickly, in ten years WE'LL be the minority. No option.

I say give them Antartica. Use technology to make it worthy of normal life, and put them there. They'll have plenty of room.

Antarctica is reserved from development by international consensus. It's also kind of cold (pun intended) to decide that a people are so inconvenient to have around that you would as soon sweep them to the ends of the Earth. You're no better than them, to be talking like that.

Furthermore, Antarctica is already the sacred capital of the Joshalonian Empire, promised to my Joshalonianites in the Holy Book of the J. No way we're giving up these rad ice sheets and totally gnarly glaciers.

Legend of the Past

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« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2006, 09:00:27 am »
Quote from: Lord J esq

Antarctica is reserved from development by international consensus. It's also kind of cold (pun intended) to decide that a people are so inconvenient to have around that you would as soon sweep them to the ends of the Earth. You're no better than them, to be talking like that.


Oh, no, no. I meant it as a joke, but there was a hint of seriousness. There's got to be somewhere they can be. Israel isn't the perfect climatic place. Some areas are outright desert, and for a country this small...

I woulden't mind sharing Israel with them. But we can't. So if we can send them anywhere, let's send them to a place with plenty of room that can contain them. Antartica was a joke, but it'd be nice to find a good enough spot.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2006, 09:09:04 am »
Ah. I stand corrected.

Legend of the Past

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« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2006, 09:24:04 am »
No prob. Though there are times I'd say some pretty nasty things... That's when I'm in a rotten mood, and they only make it worse. I do, however, support any solution that'll lead to both sides being pleased.

But you gotta admit it pretty sucks. Wherever we are, someone's not pleased. Either we're in Europe in the 19th century, where we're hailed as the diabolical hell-spawn bent on conquering the world, either we're in Israel, where the Arabs say we stole their land and that we suck.

Leebot

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« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2006, 01:01:33 pm »
I feel I have to enlighten you guys on an aspect of Jewish people that no one seems to know about. The Jews cover it up because it makes them look bad; the Christians cover it up because it makes Jesus look bad.

Throughout the age of the Roman empire, the Israelites were a warlike state. They had originally come to glory under the reign of the king David, who had led a miraculous victory against outnumbering forces ("Goliath") to gain the Jews land. They soon lost most of it, however, and the people then came to believe that a new messiah would rise up and lead them in a military campaign to reclaim their land. Many men attempted to take on this mantle, and all failed. Eventually, the Jewish empire completely crumbled and they lost the remainder of their land.

It was at this point that some of them created a new religion, Christianity. They picked a messiah from the past, Yeshua (or the Greek "Jesus" if you prefer) and colored his actions differently. They claimed he was a prophet of peace, and that his death was the fault of other Jews, not the Romans. This eventually allowed them acceptance into the Roman empire. But that's a sidenote.

My point here is that the Jews originally lost their land through their own attempts to conquer others. They couldn't be content with what they had, and they ended up losing it. So don't judge the Palestinians any differently for doing the same thing.

Legend of the Past

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« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2006, 01:40:33 pm »
First time I've heard of that, actually, but than again, if that's true... I guess it would be covered up. Just intrested to know how it came to your knowledge, Leebot.

But sure, I never said we were angels. Far from it, some Jews are horrible people and I'm not a declared arab hater. I'm a terrorist hater, and I think everyone here would agree to that, as well. I'm not after who's right and wrong, and though it has emotional weight on me, I'm willing to completely ignore the 'Anscetral home' claim. I just gotta wonder: Do we really don't deserve this country this much?

Leebot

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« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2006, 07:05:54 pm »
*shrug* Nowadays, it's just general historical knowledge for anyone who studies that period. (Of course, there are debates from Christian and Jewish historians that this isn't the truth.) I'm not a history student myself, but I read something somewhere that piqued my interest in figuring out what really happened in that era, and this is what I found.

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« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2006, 07:13:31 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Furthermore, Antarctica is already the sacred capital of the Joshalonian Empire, promised to my Joshalonianites in the Holy Book of the J. No way we're giving up these rad ice sheets and totally gnarly glaciers.


Would you be so kind as to quote the verse where that comes from?

Quote from: Leebot
Throughout the age of the Roman empire, the Israelites were a warlike state. They had originally come to glory under the reign of the king David, who had led a miraculous victory against outnumbering forces ("Goliath") to gain the Jews land. They soon lost most of it, however, and the people then came to believe that a new messiah would rise up and lead them in a military campaign to reclaim their land. Many men attempted to take on this mantle, and all failed. Eventually, the Jewish empire completely crumbled and they lost the remainder of their land.


Well, I'm intending to be a historian of the Classical era and, though Middle-Eastern history isn't exactly my focus (I know quite a bit more about Greek history), I'll try and answer this to the best of my knowledge. In some regards, I am a student of that era of history, so I'll do my best to answer it what you've said.

Firstly, ALL states were warlike in that era, and I can very confidently say that Israel was FAR less warlike than Assyria, which existed at the same time.

Now for the rest...

Not quite. King David did not lead the Israelites to gain the land. Joshua did. Thereafter, they were still a relatively minor power in the area, despite having conquered it. Certain fortresses (such as Jebus, the city of the Jebusites - later to be called Jerusalem) remained, as did the threat of the Philistines, who had arrived in Palestine from Greece in about the same time as the Hebrews. These Philistines (Goliath amongst them) were very possible the same people who fought at Troy, now driven to the sea and eventually landing in the Levant. Anyway, as such, the forces which Goliath championed were no less invaders of Caanan than the Jews were. However, David did manage to secure the land, conquering such places as the aforementioned Jebus, making it his capital.

Now, they did not lose this very quickly at all. In fact, they kept power in the region (or, relative power - at times they were in alliance with others in order to secure it) for several hundred years. David lived about 1000 BC - the downfall of the northern kingdom was to the Assyrians, in the late 700s... nearly 300 years. The southern part, Judah, with Jerusalem as a capital, in fact outlasted the Assyrians themselves, and only fell to the Babylonians in about 600BC... after having had a lengthy run of some four hundred years being more or less the power in a VERY contested region (the entire area of Megiddo, which Ahab fortified, was the pass between Assyria and Egypt - countless battles were fought there, so that it became proverbial in Revelations as the sight of the ultimate battle.)

The Jews thereafter suffer captivities, until being returned in the reign Cyrus the Persian, likely the messianic figure to whom Isaiah refers. Now, this must be looked at in an interesting way. I well understand that the book of Isaiah is said to be the one of the most prophetic and messianic books, but that isn't depreciated. Isaiah wrote things regarding his own time - but they also, incidentially (whether known to him or not), foreshadowed the future. That's the general take on that in scholarly Theological circles, I think. Anyway, moving on, the Jews run into bit of a problem a little bit later. You see, one of Alexander's generals, Selucus, comes into power in Asia. This is alright for a time, but one of his descendants comes into bitter conflict with the Jews, setting up an idol in their temple. Many of the priests allow this, but Simon the Maccabee sets up a guerilla force, and drives off the power of the invaders, granted them freedom... for a very short time. One of his family, I think it's his brother, decides to make a political move, and allies himself with the Greek overlords, who give him the office of High Priest - a thing not allowed to the family he was part of. At that point, a division occurs. The priestly class has become a sycophantic political institution, catering to the rulers... the Sadduccees of later times.

However, dissenting groups appear, such as the Essenes, and more radically in Roman times, the Zealots. The Essenes are those that more than any other kept alive the idea of a Messiah. A third group at this time where the Pharisees. Now, the Pharisees were not the corrupt political group that the Sadducees were. In fact, they were lay people, and not even priests. At that time, most people didn't go to the temple save for special days. However, synogogues were set up, and those who frequented them to study the Law were the Pharisees. Now, this is why, in the New Testament, we see the Pharisees not exactly sure about Jesus, but often just questioning, and sometimes siding, with him. The Saducees, on the other hand, were politically oriented, and saw Jesus as a threat. Unfortunately, the Sanheedran was made up of equal numbers of Saducees and Pharisees, with the odd number being the High Priest... a Saduccee. It was the politicians, therefore, that condemned Jesus... not the religious. And, well, I think everyone else knows how the rest of everything here went. I'm remaining a historian in this, not delving into religion.

However, Jesus was not the last of the Messianic figures to arise. Simon Bar Kochba was another who appeared later, and it was at this point that the power of Rome utterly demolished Israel. My history is a little fuzzy here, but I think the rebellion of Bar Kochba was after the destruction of the temple by Vespasian.

Quote from: Leebot

It was at this point that some of them created a new religion, Christianity. They picked a messiah from the past, Yeshua (or the Greek "Jesus" if you prefer) and colored his actions differently. They claimed he was a prophet of peace, and that his death was the fault of other Jews, not the Romans. This eventually allowed them acceptance into the Roman empire. But that's a sidenote.


Now, on this part, it's rather difficult to judge anything by fact. I've actually never heard of the theory that they simply picked a messiah from the past, however - usually, even by those who don't believe it, it's said to be the followers who claim that there was a resurrection directly thereafter. That, I think, is the standard consensus of historians.

Well, I spoke in reference to the rest of this before. If they picked a messiah from the past, it wasn't far in the past (I think the gospels were written what, 50 years after Jesus?) Now, the death of Jesus was, as I've said, the fault of the politicans, far as we know. There's no other evidence for anything else, as it is. The only other person that speaks of Jesus is Tacitus in around 100AD, and all he says is that Jesus was executed by Pontius Pilate. The acceptance into the Roman empire, however, had nothing to do with an apportioning of blame. If so, they would not have been persecuted under Nero, Domitian, Marcus Aurelius, and Diocletian. And those persecutions were, indeed, unwarranted and violent (proven by Tacitus who, quite plainly, despises Christians, but makes it plain the pretext for their persecution, the Great Fire of Rome, was not their fault.) Indeed, if acceptance rested on that fact, it should have been swifter. Rather, it was only by power of general Constantine in the 300s that finally allowed for this to occur. That imperial decree, and nothing else, allowed for its adoption.

What I've said here is pretty much the standard interpretation of history for the events - from a secular view (though not contrary to anything I'd believe.)

Oh, and an absolutely useless comment that my Philhellenic mind is forcing me to say: it's not Jesus in Greek, it's Iesu. Jesus would be Latin. Or, the other Latin version of the name, which is Joshua (more direct from Yeshua.)

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2006, 10:28:15 pm »
Wow. There is such thing as Jebus. Wow.
I think we should give the Israelis Australia. We aren't really using it, its desert, its far away from the Middle East. But then there is the whole Zionism thing so that won't work...And the Palestinians are Arabs so they can just leak into other Arab nations...I say give Australia to hot climate Penguins...
Anyways, this Isaiah character...Muslims seem to quote him a lot. Him a Deutronomy (sp?).
And this Bar Kobcha guy, he came after Jesus? Is he considered a prophet, universally in Abrahamic Religions?
And yes, the Middle East is a shit hole. Just ignore Qatar, UAE, Bahrain, Kuwait...sure these are all pro West...KSA looks ok too. I guess.

Am I even allowed to show you that?

Magus22

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« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2006, 10:33:07 pm »
Who was the freakshow who voted Arabs . . .

I just think we need to stop involving ourselves with so many conflicts. Tho some of the things we do are very good and are needed, will there ever be a time when we will NOT intervene with the development in a country or the intervention of a countries problems?

Burning Zeppelin

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« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2006, 10:40:50 pm »
Quote from: Magus22
Who was the freakshow who voted Arabs . . .

Um...me  :roll:

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #41 on: April 08, 2006, 10:46:16 pm »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Quote from: Leebot
Throughout the age of the Roman empire, the Israelites were a warlike state. They had originally come to glory under the reign of the king David, who had led a miraculous victory against outnumbering forces ("Goliath") to gain the Jews land. They soon lost most of it, however, and the people then came to believe that a new messiah would rise up and lead them in a military campaign to reclaim their land. Many men attempted to take on this mantle, and all failed. Eventually, the Jewish empire completely crumbled and they lost the remainder of their land.


Well, I'm intending to be a historian of the Classical era and, though Middle-Eastern history isn't exactly my focus (I know quite a bit more about Greek history), I'll try and answer this to the best of my knowledge. In some regards, I am a student of that era of history, so I'll do my best to answer it what you've said.

Firstly, ALL states were warlike in that era, and I can very confidently say that Israel was FAR less warlike than Assyria, which existed at the same time.

Now for the rest...

Not quite. King David did not lead the Israelites to gain the land. Joshua did. Thereafter, they were still a relatively minor power in the area, despite having conquered it. Certain fortresses (such as Jebus, the city of the Jebusites - later to be called Jerusalem) remained, as did the threat of the Philistines, who had arrived in Palestine from Greece in about the same time as the Hebrews. These Philistines (Goliath amongst them) were very possible the same people who fought at Troy, now driven to the sea and eventually landing in the Levant. Anyway, as such, the forces which Goliath championed were no less invaders of Caanan than the Jews were. However, David did manage to secure the land, conquering such places as the aforementioned Jebus, making it his capital.

Now, they did not lose this very quickly at all. In fact, they kept power in the region (or, relative power - at times they were in alliance with others in order to secure it) for several hundred years. David lived about 1000 BC - the downfall of the northern kingdom was to the Assyrians, in the late 700s... nearly 300 years. The southern part, Judah, with Jerusalem as a capital, in fact outlasted the Assyrians themselves, and only fell to the Babylonians in about 600BC... after having had a lengthy run of some four hundred years being more or less the power in a VERY contested region (the entire area of Megiddo, which Ahab fortified, was the pass between Assyria and Egypt - countless battles were fought there, so that it became proverbial in Revelations as the sight of the ultimate battle.)

The Jews thereafter suffer captivities, until being returned in the reign Cyrus the Persian, likely the messianic figure to whom Isaiah refers. Now, this must be looked at in an interesting way. I well understand that the book of Isaiah is said to be the one of the most prophetic and messianic books, but that isn't depreciated. Isaiah wrote things regarding his own time - but they also, incidentially (whether known to him or not), foreshadowed the future. That's the general take on that in scholarly Theological circles, I think. Anyway, moving on, the Jews run into bit of a problem a little bit later. You see, one of Alexander's generals, Selucus, comes into power in Asia. This is alright for a time, but one of his descendants comes into bitter conflict with the Jews, setting up an idol in their temple. Many of the priests allow this, but Simon the Maccabee sets up a guerilla force, and drives off the power of the invaders, granted them freedom... for a very short time. One of his family, I think it's his brother, decides to make a political move, and allies himself with the Greek overlords, who give him the office of High Priest - a thing not allowed to the family he was part of. At that point, a division occurs. The priestly class has become a sycophantic political institution, catering to the rulers... the Sadduccees of later times.

However, dissenting groups appear, such as the Essenes, and more radically in Roman times, the Zealots. The Essenes are those that more than any other kept alive the idea of a Messiah. A third group at this time where the Pharisees. Now, the Pharisees were not the corrupt political group that the Sadducees were. In fact, they were lay people, and not even priests. At that time, most people didn't go to the temple save for special days. However, synogogues were set up, and those who frequented them to study the Law were the Pharisees. Now, this is why, in the New Testament, we see the Pharisees not exactly sure about Jesus, but often just questioning, and sometimes siding, with him. The Saducees, on the other hand, were politically oriented, and saw Jesus as a threat. Unfortunately, the Sanheedran was made up of equal numbers of Saducees and Pharisees, with the odd number being the High Priest... a Saduccee. It was the politicians, therefore, that condemned Jesus... not the religious. And, well, I think everyone else knows how the rest of everything here went. I'm remaining a historian in this, not delving into religion.

However, Jesus was not the last of the Messianic figures to arise. Simon Bar Kochba was another who appeared later, and it was at this point that the power of Rome utterly demolished Israel. My history is a little fuzzy here, but I think the rebellion of Bar Kochba was after the destruction of the temple by Vespasian.

Quote from: Leebot

It was at this point that some of them created a new religion, Christianity. They picked a messiah from the past, Yeshua (or the Greek "Jesus" if you prefer) and colored his actions differently. They claimed he was a prophet of peace, and that his death was the fault of other Jews, not the Romans. This eventually allowed them acceptance into the Roman empire. But that's a sidenote.


Now, on this part, it's rather difficult to judge anything by fact. I've actually never heard of the theory that they simply picked a messiah from the past, however - usually, even by those who don't believe it, it's said to be the followers who claim that there was a resurrection directly thereafter. That, I think, is the standard consensus of historians.

Well, I spoke in reference to the rest of this before. If they picked a messiah from the past, it wasn't far in the past (I think the gospels were written what, 50 years after Jesus?) Now, the death of Jesus was, as I've said, the fault of the politicans, far as we know. There's no other evidence for anything else, as it is. The only other person that speaks of Jesus is Tacitus in around 100AD, and all he says is that Jesus was executed by Pontius Pilate. The acceptance into the Roman empire, however, had nothing to do with an apportioning of blame. If so, they would not have been persecuted under Nero, Domitian, Marcus Aurelius, and Diocletian. And those persecutions were, indeed, unwarranted and violent (proven by Tacitus who, quite plainly, despises Christians, but makes it plain the pretext for their persecution, the Great Fire of Rome, was not their fault.) Indeed, if acceptance rested on that fact, it should have been swifter. Rather, it was only by power of general Constantine in the 300s that finally allowed for this to occur. That imperial decree, and nothing else, allowed for its adoption.

What I've said here is pretty much the standard interpretation of history for the events - from a secular view (though not contrary to anything I'd believe.)

Oh, and an absolutely useless comment that my Philhellenic mind is forcing me to say: it's not Jesus in Greek, it's Iesu. Jesus would be Latin. Or, the other Latin version of the name, which is Joshua (more direct from Yeshua.)

Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
Wow. There is such thing as Jebus. Wow.

And this I propose we call the "Comedy of Life."

Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
I think we should give the Israelis Australia. We aren't really using it, its desert, its far away from the Middle East.

Australia is already a country, and the "desert" parts of it you would propose giving to the Israelis would be inhospitable. This would amount to a pogrom. Perhaps we should give the Israelis Saudi Arabia instead of Australia. And in exchange for giving the Jews control of your holiest cities, the Palestinians can have Jerusalem. Then everyone will live happily ever after and there won't be any more religious wars. Yep.

Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Quote from: Lord J esq
Furthermore, Antarctica is already the sacred capital of the Joshalonian Empire, promised to my Joshalonianites in the Holy Book of the J. No way we're giving up these rad ice sheets and totally gnarly glaciers.


Would you be so kind as to quote the verse where that comes from?

Joshua, 15:32 "And that icy world in the southmost south who sits in judgment of the affairs of humankind..."

This is part of a longer section where the Joshalonianites are being promised the four corners of the Earth in keeping with the Empire's divine rights. Notice the allusion to Antarctica's ice sheets, cited by modern historians as proof of the book's veracity and the existence of Josh.

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« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2006, 10:48:24 pm »
Quote from: Burning Zeppelin
Quote from: Magus22
Who was the freakshow who voted Arabs . . .

Um...me  :roll:


!!!!!!

Everyone has their own opinions I guess. My apologies for the foolish comment Zeppelin.

Daniel Krispin

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« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2006, 11:05:56 pm »
Quote from: Lord J esq
Joshua, 15:32 "And that icy world in the southmost south who sits in judgment of the affairs of humankind..."

This is part of a longer section where the Joshalonianites are being promised the four corners of the Earth in keeping with the Empire's divine rights. Notice the allusion to Antarctica's ice sheets, cited by modern historians as proof of the book's veracity and the existence of Josh.


Nice! I'll have to remember that one.

Sentenal

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« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2006, 01:51:59 am »
Lots of stuff...

Quote
So yeah, they had it for 1200 years...then Zionism comes around! Now they want it back after millenium+ of not being there! If I am mistaken, correct me please.
But the British took their (Palestine) land and gave it to the Jews. Now the Palestinians are the victims (and many became refugees) and Israel is the new owner of the land. Palestine wants to take it back. To answer the dilema, where were the Jews all those many years ago?

First, let me explain something.  The British created a state for the Palastine also.  There was Israel, and Palastine.  They could do that because they had liberated the area from the Turks.  But after they were created, Palastine attacked Israel.  They counterattacked, and took Palastine.  They got what they had coming to them.

Quote
Yeah I guess you are right. I don't exactly want a Palestinian state. Why not a shared state? And yeah, I know its not like the Arabs would be wanting too anytime soon -.-

Looks like you answered your question, and also pointed out the unreasonable party in all this.

And Daniel, nice informative post :)