Author Topic: Where Did lavos come from?  (Read 4824 times)

Daniel Krispin

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #15 on: March 01, 2006, 02:46:43 pm »
Well, who is it that says that he's a monster from an unknown origin? It's either Miguel or Lucca, I think. He's also called 'the infamous immortal', which seems to imply that his race is naturally deathless. But beyond that... hmmm... well, doesn't Lucca say that it's a cycle: a parasite who's young go forth and do the same to other planets? One must remember, in the Crono world planets themselves have life. Therefore, even as there are diseases of the creatures of a planet, there are those that are foes of the planets themselves, abominations that - unlike the native creatures - do not live in a symbiotic but rather a parasitic relationship. It's just a translation of the micro into the macro.

Now, that was mostly Trigger. Cross makes him more complex. He's no mere parasite. In Trigger he wore armour, hinting at intelligence. Cross takes it further, in that he almost definitely has a will, and his destructive and malefic essence is contained in the Flame, a sort of One Ring of Sauron for Lavos. A wish granter that merely turns things into the will of its true master. Humanity, touched by him, is said to be tainted from natural symbiosis into a form of parasite themselves - a corruption of an original intent, half-way between native creature and Lavos. As if, due to the prescence of a parasite, a cell of the body were to mutate into a new thing, not wholly of either. Lavos, thus, while still being a parasite, is undeniably evil - there is no mere bestial ignorance here. He has a will to destroy and cause pain - an embodiment of that - and lives to cause suffering.

I think the most telling aspect of his nature is on the steps of Terra Tower. Those are the words of the Flame, which has been said to be 'the essence of that which fell from the skies in ancient times.' Thus, the Flame and Lavos are, without any room for doubt, one in the same, of same spirit and will. What the Flame does, what it wishes, may be taken to be that of Lavos as well. Now, the words of the Flame don't give much to go on but, from the impression I get... something else caused Lavos. Something hurt him, badly. Made him angry. Twisted him, and corrupted him, and turned him into a parasite. Something, I think, destroyed his world, and disillusioned the mighty power of his race. Notice, he asks if it's neccessary to destroy another planet in order to survive. He's contemplating the nature of destruction as it's neccessary for life: an animal would not think thus. He has an understanding of his actions. He may even have remorse. But he's holding his own life, his own existance, as most important - he needs the life of another planet to feed his own and continue - BUT he doesn't seem happy with it. He appears to lament that that is the nature of the universe, that he must destroy another so that his life may continue (this is a continuing theme in Cross, I must add - it can be applied to how humanity as well, and Lavos is used as a sort of example of what could be, and from which lessons may be learned.) Also, he says something to the effect that those who feel pain, pass it on to others. Those sound like the words of someone who's been tormented and so twisted by it that he feels the only respite is to inflict it on others - misery loves company, after all. So, here we have a creature who's life - both physical and emotional - depends on suffering and pain. And, if all his race are like this (keep in mind that Lucca in Trigger could have been wrong about his race, in some measure), they collectively suffered some catastrophe that made them all into jaded, universe travelling, psychopaths (literally, in fact, for they feel a deep emotion of the spirit, which is what psychopath means.)

I didn't really approach that in a very orderly fashion, and it would help if I had the trascript of his words there before me. But truly, remember that part, for THAT tells who Lavos is. Sure, you can get a bit of his origin, his nature, from the way he acts. But he's mostly an impersonal monster who corrupts and destroys in Trigger... a foe who never speaks, save through the queen of Zeal. But Cross... the Flame is his voice, and there it is that he speaks. Also, as some have said, there is much that might be learned from what is echoed when people gaze at it. It shows how he twists people, like a distorted mirror. And, by view of the distortion, the nature can be shown. Like I said, if one wishes to know who Lavos is, those two minutes atop Terra Tower are more explanatory than all the rest put together, as it is one of the few times where Lavos actually talks.

AuraTwilight

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #16 on: March 01, 2006, 03:32:56 pm »
Like I said, Lavos is the Galactus of Chronoverse (since Starky's conversation with the Flame seemed to have indicated that Lavoswas born at the Big Bang or something.) And the Arbiter is like the Silver Surfer or something :D

Zaperking

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #17 on: March 01, 2006, 04:15:28 pm »
Daniel,

Wasn't it Schala who spoke through the flame, especially since Kid was totally freaked out by it since Schala was telling her the whole truth or whatever.

Daniel Krispin

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #18 on: March 01, 2006, 08:29:14 pm »
Quote from: Zaperking
Daniel,

Wasn't it Schala who spoke through the flame, especially since Kid was totally freaked out by it since Schala was telling her the whole truth or whatever.


I don't think so. Schala was only merged with Lavos into the Time Devourer. The Frozen Flame was the essence of Lavos himself. From the way I see it, the Time Devourer was the destroyed history from CT - the power of Lavos come to completion. But Crono took that timeline, cut it off, and discarded it into the time-continuum's garbage, the Tesseract. The Flame, however, remains seperate from that.

Zaperking

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #19 on: March 02, 2006, 01:44:02 am »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Quote from: Zaperking
Daniel,

Wasn't it Schala who spoke through the flame, especially since Kid was totally freaked out by it since Schala was telling her the whole truth or whatever.


I don't think so. Schala was only merged with Lavos into the Time Devourer. The Frozen Flame was the essence of Lavos himself. From the way I see it, the Time Devourer was the destroyed history from CT - the power of Lavos come to completion. But Crono took that timeline, cut it off, and discarded it into the time-continuum's garbage, the Tesseract. The Flame, however, remains seperate from that.


Well, it's kind of weird, Since Schala already spoke through the flame before (Beckoning Wazuki to carry Serge there). And the fact that Kid was telling the flame that no, she wont become "her" and wont want to be a part of "her", and that she's her own self, kind of shows that Kid was speaking with Schala.

Burning Zeppelin

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #20 on: March 02, 2006, 03:49:38 am »
Quote from: AuraTwilight
Quote
Starky:
Woowzer!
Out of this world...!
The liight of the big baang!
All starts from heere and
all ends heere...
What liies beeyond that...?


Lavos is GALACTUS!!!!!!!!!!

No. Lavos is Voltron. Duh.

Lavos's Homeworld adds to the mystery of Lavos, and overall makes the game more scrumptuous. That is, unless Chrono Cross said something. Damn this godforsaken PAL country of mine!

Chrono'99

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2006, 11:56:27 am »
Quote from: Zaperking
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Quote from: Zaperking
Daniel,

Wasn't it Schala who spoke through the flame, especially since Kid was totally freaked out by it since Schala was telling her the whole truth or whatever.


I don't think so. Schala was only merged with Lavos into the Time Devourer. The Frozen Flame was the essence of Lavos himself. From the way I see it, the Time Devourer was the destroyed history from CT - the power of Lavos come to completion. But Crono took that timeline, cut it off, and discarded it into the time-continuum's garbage, the Tesseract. The Flame, however, remains seperate from that.


Well, it's kind of weird, Since Schala already spoke through the flame before (Beckoning Wazuki to carry Serge there). And the fact that Kid was telling the flame that no, she wont become "her" and wont want to be a part of "her", and that she's her own self, kind of shows that Kid was speaking with Schala.

Schala didn't speak through the Flame, Wazuki and co. were very far from the Flame room when they heard Schala... For all we know, Schala's voice reaching the physical world might have been the cause or the consequence (or both) of the magnetic storm that she created.

As for the person speaking through the Flame on Terra Tower, it was really Lavos, not Schala:
Quote
Kid:
   An ancient magical kingdom...?
   That you destroyed
   ten thousand years ago...?
   What are ya talkin' about?
   
   Kid:
   Stop it...
   I don't know nothin'!
   
   I'm...
   I'm Kid!!
   I'm myself and
   nobody else!!

SilentMartyr

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2006, 02:15:42 pm »
Has anyone ever thought that the Flame went through Kid because she was Schala's clone thingy, and that being the only reason? Like Lavos sensed Schala's presence in Kid through the Flame and then communicated with her.

sssssz

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2006, 02:28:15 pm »
Quote from: Chrono'99
As for the person speaking through the Flame on Terra Tower, it was really Lavos, not Schala:
Quote
Kid:
   An ancient magical kingdom...?
   That you destroyed
   ten thousand years ago...?
   What are ya talkin' about?
   
   Kid:
   Stop it...
   I don't know nothin'!
   
   I'm...
   I'm Kid!!
   I'm myself and
   nobody else!!


If I'm not mistaken, Schala felt that it was her fault that Zeal was destroyed... so that quote isn't a definite answer I believe.

SilentMartyr

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2006, 02:31:02 pm »
Where do you get that idea?

sssssz

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2006, 02:32:19 pm »
Err... the entire plot of Radical Dreamers perhaps?

SilentMartyr

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #26 on: March 02, 2006, 02:33:59 pm »
Could you be a little more specific? I haven't played it.

sssssz

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #27 on: March 02, 2006, 02:42:58 pm »
Oh, I see... Well, it'd be a spoiler though, so watch out.

After the Ocean Palace incident, Schala watched Lavos destroy the Kingdom of Zeal. She felt that it was her who caused the destruction; if she could believe in herself and refuse her mother, the Mammon Machine wouldn't have been activated and Lavos wouldn't have awaken. The Frozen Flame in the Mammon Machine sensed her self-inflicted guilt, and gave her a second chance... Schala was reverted back to her infant stage, and was sent to the modern era. Lucca found the child, and she grew up with the name of Kid. If I remember correctly, Schala bound in the Time Devourer still feels this way, and it's probable she claimed to have destroyed Zeal herself.

...well, I didn't mean to say it wasn't Lavos who were speaking through the Frozen Flame. Honestly I have no idea. From what I've seen so far, it could be either or both Lavos and Schala...

Ehehe, maybe I'll understand things more when I actually get Chrono Cross to work. :(

Chrono'99

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2006, 04:18:23 pm »
Quote from: sssssz
Quote from: Chrono'99
As for the person speaking through the Flame on Terra Tower, it was really Lavos, not Schala:
Quote
Kid:
   An ancient magical kingdom...?
   That you destroyed
   ten thousand years ago...?
   What are ya talkin' about?
   
   Kid:
   Stop it...
   I don't know nothin'!
   
   I'm...
   I'm Kid!!
   I'm myself and
   nobody else!!


If I'm not mistaken, Schala felt that it was her fault that Zeal was destroyed... so that quote isn't a definite answer I believe.

Yeah, sorry I didn't think about that possibility. But since it is Lavos/the Frozen Flame who speaks to every other character, it's more probable that it was also Lavos/Frozen Flame who spoke to Kid. OR it could have been an illusion of Schala, made up by Lavos, since some other characters also speak to illusions instead of directly to Lavos (Greco & Ghetz, Van & his Mom, etc.).

Zaperking

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Where Did lavos come from?
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2006, 04:18:45 pm »
Quote from: sssssz
Oh, I see... Well, it'd be a spoiler though, so watch out.

After the Ocean Palace incident, Schala watched Lavos destroy the Kingdom of Zeal. She felt that it was her who caused the destruction; if she could believe in herself and refuse her mother, the Mammon Machine wouldn't have been activated and Lavos wouldn't have awaken. The Frozen Flame in the Mammon Machine sensed her self-inflicted guilt, and gave her a second chance... Schala was reverted back to her infant stage, and was sent to the modern era. Lucca found the child, and she grew up with the name of Kid. If I remember correctly, Schala bound in the Time Devourer still feels this way, and it's probable she claimed to have destroyed Zeal herself.

...well, I didn't mean to say it wasn't Lavos who were speaking through the Frozen Flame. Honestly I have no idea. From what I've seen so far, it could be either or both Lavos and Schala...

Ehehe, maybe I'll understand things more when I actually get Chrono Cross to work. :(


Well done, I was just about to say that ^^