Author Topic: Quote Digest  (Read 150569 times)

tushantin

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #615 on: April 03, 2011, 03:07:24 am »
You guys should look into Deism.
I know, but the problem is that the belief completely contradicts my train of thought. XD (Yet, I don't really have anything against it)

I'm not even remotely religious, but nor am I an atheist either. You know of that "unnamed God" I keep talking about? The reason I call it "Unnamed" because I haven't known the true nature of it, yet the presence is certain. The concept of God that comes to my mind isn't an anthropomorphic character, but the "existence" of some organism or intelligence. Yet the beginning of the universe is either caused by this existence or is simply a correlation is still confusing. That said, I'm note saying that the existence of such God is absolutely certain, but that it has a big possibility based on my own observations.

I'm actually writing fiction based on these observations, and hopefully have it completed in time to give a better understanding and explanation.  :roll: Gah! I hate myself...

Licawolf

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #616 on: April 03, 2011, 03:32:00 pm »
I believe all science will hopefully (eventually) point to the existence of God.

Me too...





...

EDIT: Funnily enough, I think my forum rank changed to "Enlightened one" with this post  :P
« Last Edit: April 03, 2011, 03:35:18 pm by Licawolf »

Lord J Esq

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #617 on: April 03, 2011, 07:55:53 pm »
How do you suppose that might work, "all science" somehow "pointing" to the existence of a god? That sounds like wishful thinking to me. Science describes phenomena. Astronomy might tell you how far away a star is, and what its composition is, by measuring various observable physical properties emanating from the star or influenced by the star. How is astronomy going to tell you about a deity? What units would we use? What equations would we derive?

For science to support the existence of a deity, that deity would have to exist in the first place, unless somehow the observation itself were capable of creating the deity. Second, the deity would have to be susceptible in some way to the instruments of science, tangible as it were, which as best I can reckon would either invalidate the entity from its supernatural "deity" status or would invalidate the scientific method itself (if the deity were to corrupt science to make itself knowable through physical factuality). Third, you would need some kind of physical hypothesis to test. More specifically, you would need something akin to a testable definition of the supposed god.

All of that is far-fetched enough as it is. But for all science, rather than some new branch of science, to support the existence of a deity, you would need to explain how all current science already does--or how, with modification, it would.

I suppose I can't blame religious people for wanting an instrument as powerful as science to prove the existence of their god, but have you actually thought about how that might work? Do you have a definition for "god"? Can you reconcile the paradox of measuring a supernatural entity using a natural evaluative methodology? Would you explain how existing science already does so?

Thought

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #618 on: April 03, 2011, 11:02:00 pm »
While I can't speak for how Boo meant it, at least from my perspective you are conflating "point to" with "prove." It is rather simple for science to point to the existence of God, although even as a Christian myself I maintain that it cannot prove such as thing. As I love analogies: textual analysis of the Gospels of Matthew and Luke point to Source Q, a now-lost source which informed certain aspects of both of them. While such analysis points to the once-existence of such a document, they do not prove that such a document ever existed. Science could "point to" the existence of God by providing data that is in-line with a hypothetical existence in which God does indeed exist.

The simplest answer to how science could point to the existence of God is through the Anthropic Principle: out scientific knowledge of the universe points to it being highly conducive to the development of sentient life. This is in accord with what one who believes in God would expect. Of course, this could only "point to" the existence of God and not "prove" it, since there are alternate explanations that are themselves quite valid. For example, the very fact that if the universe was hostile to sentient life, then we wouldn't exist to observe it nicely argues that the only universe in which we could be aware of the universe is one that is suited for life: since it is the only one we could find ourselves it, it is improper to take meaning from its general state. Thus, the anthropic principle, which is fueled by our scientific understanding of the universe, could point to the existence of God. But the problem is, it could also point to (in essence) Cincinnati.

All that being said, I must disagree with Boo. If he did mean that he hopes science would prove the existence of God, then I would object on the grounds that such proof would be to the contrary of every religion's teachings about the divine that I am aware of. Proof of the existence of God would go against Christian teachings about free will and the sort, for example. On the other hand, if he meant "points to" as I discussed above, then it is unnecessary. While the anthropic principle does indeed present a picture of the universe that is in-line with the existence of God, it isn't inarguably so. It ultimately depends on the meaning that the individual assigns to the phenomenon, same as now. As long as there are other legitimate explanations (that is, as long as science can only "point to" but not "prove"), the pointing will still be subjective. While it is possible that science might point to the existence of God more than it does now, the status of that pointing would remain unchanged.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #619 on: April 04, 2011, 03:05:45 am »
But the problem is, it could also point to (in essence) Cincinnati.

That's a serious enough problem that it undermines the meaningfulness of the entire concept. The existence of anything (e.g. the physical world) which is claimed to derive from the existence of a deity, cannot be used as a proof of the existence of the deity, or even an implicit suggestion that such a proof could exist, as to do so would be evidently circular.

I disagree about the merits of distinguishing "points to" and "proves" in this instance. The distinction itself is valid, but because the former implies a claim about the latter, it's irrelevant. Science already "points to" the existence of the Christian god, "Cincinnati," and anything else we can postulate as having a natural existence. Clearly the suggestion was that science would somehow prove a divine premise, hence my questions pertaining to the difficulty in so doing. They were honest questions meant to provoke thought, even if I am skeptical that any defensible pro-religious answers are to be found.

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #620 on: April 04, 2011, 03:23:34 am »
Deism is very loose in that there is no practicing church, simply the acceptance that the concept of God is looked at way too literally, and that there is likely no person-shaped giant translucent deity waiting in the clouds, judging people. "God" doesn't have to be a sentient creature. Personally I feel that the laws of physics and other sciences that govern the universe and allowed for the miracle of life at all is in itself "God". It's as good a name as any other.

Of course, that's just my opinion. I really don't think science and religion have to be science vs. religion. Something a lot of people don't realize is if it's on paper in ink, it was written by a person, not a god. Imo, religious texts shouldn't be taken so seriously and literally that they causes fights or unhappiness.

I should note that I was raised secularly, for the most part, but we were vaguely Christian. We celebrated the Christian holidays (still do) and my parents were raised with religion pushed on them (actually one Catholic, one Protestant) and chose to let my siblings and I think and figure it out for ourselves. I've only been to church enough times to count on my two hands, and most visits were for funerals and weddings.

EDIT: for the page number
Quote from: Douglas Adams
42.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 03:41:13 am by Mr Bekkler »

Sajainta

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #621 on: April 04, 2011, 05:07:25 am »
Quote from: Douglas Adams
42.

Heh, I just finished re-reading Joe's copy of Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.  Coincidence!
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 05:29:51 am by Sajainta »

tushantin

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #622 on: April 04, 2011, 05:29:02 am »
@Lord J and Thought:  :lol: Don't wanna taint the thread, but let me tell you that so far as what we've seen there hasn't been a single concept which was entirely unreliable or false, and considering the amount of books we've had regarding Gods and Religion since the horizon of eras, it is safe to assume that these texts do point at some direction rather than exactly at what they imply. Just because we can't prove its existence doesn't mean we have evidence of its non-existence, and an outright rejection of a concept with no evidence is a major flaw in Absolute Rationalism. This once again brings the concept into Suspension Mode, which gives a new light at rational thinking. For instance, when you compare Physics to a framework (crazy, I know) and consider how Black Holes, heavy gravitational fields and Rifts affect them, this brings quite some results to your plate.

@Bekkler: Religion wasn't always evil and meaningless, Bekkler. People make em that way. Here in India, reading scriptures never made a Hindu. It's the values and understanding of a Hindu and its culture that counts. Hell, I never read Bhagwat Gita completely either.

Lord J Esq

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #623 on: April 04, 2011, 05:38:45 am »
...let me tell you that so far as what we've seen there hasn't been a single concept which was entirely unreliable or false, and considering the amount of books we've had regarding Gods and Religion since the horizon of eras, it is safe to assume that these texts do point at some direction rather than exactly at what they imply. Just because we can't prove its existence doesn't mean we have evidence of its non-existence, and an outright rejection of a concept with no evidence is a major flaw in Absolute Rationalism.

I'm not sure what you are referring to by "so far as what we've seen." If you're talking about religious books, I would demand you defend your claim, because it'd be a very broad claim to make.

Your other claim, meanwhile, I understand all too well, as it is a classic fallacy employed far too often by religious people in their attempts at criticizing their critics. "I can't prove my god exists, but YOU can't prove it DOESN'T exist!" In a metaphysical sense that is a true statement if the deity in question exists, and a gibberish question otherwise, but either way it has no bearing whatsoever on the underlying question of the existence of the deity as claimed by the religious person. The burden of proof rests with that person, the one who claims there is a god, to prove that claim. It does not rest with the skeptic to prove that the other party's claim is false.

Deism is not really any better than theism from a philosophical standpoint. It may be less likely to inform religious fundamentalism, but we may only speak in probabilities, and so long as somebody maintains a faulty belief--or any belief--there is the potential for abuse and the likelihood of inconsistency on policy positions.

Syna

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #624 on: April 04, 2011, 02:08:28 pm »
Deism is very loose in that there is no practicing church, simply the acceptance that the concept of God is looked at way too literally, and that there is likely no person-shaped giant translucent deity waiting in the clouds, judging people. "God" doesn't have to be a sentient creature. Personally I feel that the laws of physics and other sciences that govern the universe and allowed for the miracle of life at all is in itself "God". It's as good a name as any other.

I think this is an excellent way to look at it. Whether there is a literal God or not just doesn't have to matter -- there is, if nothing else, the psychological experience of God, or gods, or sublimity/ecstasy, or spirituality in general, however you want to describe it. (I imagine what you're describing is what people really mean when they say 'science points to god'.) It is very real, it's just that most people think that we need to be very concretist about it for it to matter.

42!

tushantin

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #625 on: April 04, 2011, 02:38:31 pm »
@Lord J: I'm at the hospital right now (and probably will be for a few more days), so I'll be brief.

Quote from: me
so far as what we've seen there hasn't been a single concept which was entirely unreliable or false
It means exactly what I said.  :P For instance, the story of Spiderman is entirely fiction, and as with every fiction everybody knows this shit isn't real. Then some kid comes by telling scientists (with no evidence whatsoever) that the concept of Spiderman IS possible in real life. One thing he got wrong is that radioactive spiders don't give you superpowers, but just because it is false doesn't mean the concept in itself is entirely false or unreliable. You see, genetic mutation/fusion and having the powers of a spider fused with a human is possible, but requires a much tedious, careful and methodical science. It's called Gene Splicing, and human experiments with that is illegal, but has been successful with animals (look up "Humster").

And it's not just with this concept; in the history of science we've all been baffled when some of the most ridiculous ideas have been accomplished by taking a different route or method, creating useful inventions and discoveries in its wake. And this has all been the result of "Limited Skepticism", that is rejecting something without evidence, but not rejecting the possibility of its existence. And this kind of thought has saved thousands of soldiers even in a battlefield when it was time to take quick, intelligent decisions.

Quote
"I can't prove my god exists, but YOU can't prove it DOESN'T exist!"
You see, that's something I'd like to call an "Opposing Balance". Basically, when two sides are neutral about their own beliefs, when one side says something contradictory about the other the other would run the opposite direction finding a blank check to do the same. Meaning, if you reject an idea if it has no evidence, they will reject your rejection because you have no opposing evidence either. But this is flawed in one way.

You see, that's a flawed method of doing things. When neither sides have evidence doesn't mean that the opposing are wrong by default; it's common sense that when neither side has evidence the concept remains in "Suspended Mode" where the credibility remains neither with one party nor the other, but remains as a "possibility". Some folks (both religious, atheistic, or concerning any belief pertaining to a completely different area, such as a grocery store's product price) would argue that, for instance, if there's no evidence there isn't any Jack the Ripper means there IS a Jack the Ripper, or there's no evidence there is a Donut thus Donut does not exist, is actually a flawed way of getting about things. Remember the "Suspended Mode". Possibility is there to be exploited, to EARN it, not to blindly claim it.

That said, when you have no intention of telling people what to do, you're still free to muse on your own understandings and believe what you want to believe, even if it means you think there's a Boogie Man under your bed. You're obviously not going to agree with me on this, but I've seen more positive results than negative in these cases. Hehe, even here at the hospital.

Kodokami

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #626 on: April 04, 2011, 04:06:34 pm »
Deism is not really any better than theism from a philosophical standpoint. It may be less likely to inform religious fundamentalism, but we may only speak in probabilities, and so long as somebody maintains a faulty belief--or any belief--there is the potential for abuse and the likelihood of inconsistency on policy positions.

Does that make Deism inherently wrong? The same could be said, as you stated, for any belief whether theistic or not; each has the potential for abuse. In such a case where every belief is wrong solely due to a probability, what makes a belief right? Perspective?

Quote
"I can't prove my god exists, but YOU can't prove it DOESN'T exist!"
You see, that's something I'd like to call an "Opposing Balance". Basically, when two sides are neutral about their own beliefs...

I wouldn't call that neutral. That example is an escalating conflict waiting to happen. Both sides still oppose the other regardless if either is correct.

---
Quote from: Wallace Stevens
I do not know which to prefer,
 The beauty of inflections
 Or the beauty of innuendoes,
 The blackbird whistling
 Or just after.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 04:10:23 pm by Kodokami »

Mr Bekkler

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #627 on: April 04, 2011, 05:02:00 pm »

...so long as somebody maintains a faulty belief--or any belief--there is the potential for abuse and the likelihood of inconsistency on policy positions.

Who's arguing that? All I claimed was that Deism is the name I gave to the way I see things. You're not going to change my mind with such a shaky argument. I'm sorry, J.

You're implying that if the entire world was atheist there would be NO potential for abuse or likeliness of inconsistency on policy positions, right? Well no two people are the same, even if they think similarly, and inconsistency IS life. As long as there's power and/or government AT ALL, there's potential for abuse.

I understand what you said, but I really don't get why you said it.

@Bekkler: Religion wasn't always evil and meaningless, Bekkler. People make em that way. Here in India, reading scriptures never made a Hindu. It's the values and understanding of a Hindu and its culture that counts. Hell, I never read Bhagwat Gita completely either.

I never said evil OR meaningless. Just that anything that's written down was done so by human hands, and because of that, cannot be 100% accurate. I do actually believe religion is important, a lot of people need it, and it has certainly attempted to place a system of morals into society. Whether it is successful or not is really all about how people interpret it and what they actually do about (or because of) it. I do realize I'm being very general , but I don't want to say any particular religion is more right or wrong than any other.
It's contextually significant in more ways than just what people believe in. It's helped shape society as we know it. For example, a trait common to every religion is storytelling. The art of telling a story to make a point is one that was crafted for thousands of years, thanks to religion. Every book, movie, comic, and commercial you see is influenced by religion, either by borrowing from it or trying to avoid it.

Some quotes from a fellow Deist, though I don't agree with everything he's said, these are great.

Quote from: Thomas Paine
It is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving, it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe.


Quote from: Thomas Paine
My mind is my own church.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2011, 05:25:12 pm by Mr Bekkler »

tushantin

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #628 on: April 04, 2011, 09:28:47 pm »
I wouldn't call that neutral. That example is an escalating conflict waiting to happen. Both sides still oppose the other regardless if either is correct.
If that was the case, Nikhil and I would have been sworn enemies today. XD You have NO IDEA of the conflicting views we have, and yet we decide to see each other's views and understand them rather than try to correct each other. You see, a person can't be 100% right, and often misses views which the opposing person knows, whether or not the opposition is right.

Things as "conflict just waiting to happen" can always be avoided in a proper mindset. But I see what you mean, nevertheless.  :)

@Bekkler: There was something similar I wanted to tell Lord J about when discussing about morality, but I couldn't find the time nor words to properly explain it. Religion actually has played a significant role in the expansion of morality (it can actually be credited for creating it too) since ancient times and has evolved into a stable state today. Believe it or not, it's not just out of fear of penalty or retribution that people don't stoop to crime today, it's morality in itself. And not because they fear going to hell either, but they fear to do bad in the first place. Some people just can't watch their victims suffer, and all this is being wired into human sentience.

Meh, I'm lacking sleep, so I'm probably not making any sense right now (it's been 24 hours without proper sleep now). Anywhos, here's a quote to make up for it.
Quote from: Sherlock - The Great Game
Sherlock Holmes: [after explaining a series of complicated deductions] The picture's a fake.
Dr. John Watson: [impressed] Fantastic.
Sherlock Holmes: Meretricious.
DI Lestrade: And a happy new year.
Quote from: Sherlock - The Great Game
Holmes: Look at that, Mrs. Hudson. Quiet. Calm. Peaceful. Isn't it hateful?
Mrs. Hudson: Oh, I'm sure something will turn up Sherlock. A nice murder. That'll cheer you up


Thought

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Re: Quote Digest
« Reply #629 on: April 04, 2011, 09:49:11 pm »
First, a small point:

Clearly the suggestion was that science would somehow prove a divine premise...

If that was Boo’s suggestion, then I already addressed that. But I also used that possibility as a springboard for other interpretations. These are not mere fancies that I am putting forward for the sake of argument but actual positions that one can find out there in the real world (the fine-tuned universe/anthropic principle being particular manifestations).

Now for the meat:

I disagree about the merits of distinguishing "points to" and "proves" in this instance. The distinction itself is valid, but because the former implies a claim about the latter, it's irrelevant. ... Clearly the suggestion was that science would somehow prove a divine premise, hence my questions pertaining to the difficulty in so doing. They were honest questions meant to provoke thought, even if I am skeptical that any defensible pro-religious answers are to be found.

Your conflation of the terms confounds your stated intent. By discarding the distinction you lose the specificity that would allow the thought provoked from your questions to be meaningful.

You are quite right in highlighting the difficulties of using science to prove the existence of God, and this can be a useful avenue for people to explore, but it is a very small avenue. The only results, however, will be that the individual may gain a better understanding of what science can and cannot do, and that the individual will come to the conclusion that science can’t prove the existence of God. These are good things to know, but they are simple things and for the topic at hand do not have great ramifications.

However, by exploring the pointing-to’s of science, one can bring into greater focus one’s own perception of God and the relationship between that God and the universe. This requires that the investigator make specific claims about how the universe would be if God did exist, and then “test” those claims by comparing them to the universe. If I claim that God produces order, then I would need to see if there is order in the universe. If I claim that God desires free will, then I have to see if the universe allows for free will. And so on, and so forth.

“Proves” is a dead end, “points to” is where there can be actual investigation.

And for a final note:

The burden of proof rests with that person, the one who claims there is a god, to prove that claim. It does not rest with the skeptic to prove that the other party's claim is false.

The proof always rests with the person putting forward an argument, it does not matter what the argument is. If the believer is putting forward the argument that God exists, then yes, the burden of proof is theirs. But if the skeptic is putting forward the argument that the claim of the other party is indeed false, then the skeptic has the burden of proof. Of course, if the skeptic is just making a criticism rather than an argument, then that individual doesn't assume the burden of proof, but neither can a conclusion about the existence of God be drawn from that criticism.



@Lord J and Thought:  ...

Just to be clear, in case this in indication of a misunderstanding, I am not rejecting the existence of God. Rather, I support such a supposition. However, I do try to be careful with my claims and with what I can or cannot do with the evidence at hand.