Poll

How Does Guardia's Inheritance Pass On?

Through females
12 (63.2%)
Through males, Marle's mother married back into the family
3 (15.8%)
Intra-marriage (daughter marries son)
3 (15.8%)
Other (please explain)
1 (5.3%)

Total Members Voted: 19

Voting closed: January 03, 2004, 03:10:41 pm

Author Topic: Guardia's Odd Inheritance  (Read 7199 times)

Assassin of Time

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Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #45 on: July 06, 2005, 01:29:34 am »
Quote from: Sentenal
What?  No.  ALL anicent civilazions have had male dominance, regardless of religion.


???

Native American tribes held women in high regard, and were matriarchial. Forgive me, it's late and I dont feel like researching ancient matriarchial tribes, but there were quite a few, maybe even moreso than patriarchial.

DarkGizmo

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Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #46 on: July 06, 2005, 01:34:49 am »
well I know the names in french, there were the Iroquoïen and the Algonquien, Iroquoïen were Matriach(ich?) and NOT nomad while ALgoquien were nomad and patriach(ich?), I don't know which was dominant but I think they were much difference by number, but it make more sense that non-nomad would be more.

Sentenal

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Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #47 on: July 06, 2005, 02:42:20 pm »
Lets see...

Every Far-Eastern civilization, every middle-eastern civilazation, greek, Roman, Germanic...  All of them are male dominated.  Even in native-american tribes, males are the chiefs.

YbrikMetaknight

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Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #48 on: July 06, 2005, 03:13:26 pm »
The statement that ALL civilizations, ancient or otherwise, were male-dominated and patriarchal is absolutely false. I have not the time to look up specifics, but I do know that some African tribes and some North American tribes were matriarchal, and I'm pretty sure that more were matrilineal (which is what we're talking about here; I personally still think Guardia was patriarchal but matrilineal, which is rather odd).

Yes, to say that the majority of human civilizations were/have been male-dominated, patriarchal and patrilineal is a true statement, but to say that all of them were is absolutely and unequivocably false. Do your research before you go about making an ass of yourself.

And Sir Frog, your assertion that both Guardia XXXIII and Aliza were descendants of XXI and Leene is possible, and fairly likely, and irrefutable, but it's also not quite provable. The only sure thing is that Aliza (and therefore Marle) was descended from XXI and Leene, or at least certainly from Leene (see the Frog Princess ending, though I'm not seriously about to believe that as anything more than a joke). So please stop getting offended when people don't take your assertions as absolute fact. You make a good argument, but it's not fact.

Ultimately, there is no way for us to be absolutely certain on this matter. I think there are two likely scenarios: Either the Guardia line is patriarchal but matrilineal, or Aliza married back into the Guardia family by marrying a (possibly distant, possibly not-so-distant) cousin.

Salvadeiro

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Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #49 on: July 06, 2005, 05:29:17 pm »
Plus its the Kingdom of Guardia.  Not the Queendom of Guardia lol.  But then again, the UK is ruled by a queen... so...yeah.

Sir Frog

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Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #50 on: July 06, 2005, 05:29:25 pm »
Quote from: YbrikMetaknight
I think there are two likely scenarios: Either the Guardia line is patriarchal but matrilineal, or Aliza married back into the Guardia family by marrying a (possibly distant, possibly not-so-distant) cousin.

Your idea of a matrilineal yet patriarchal monarchy is interesting. It certainly is consistent--for the most part--with what is presented in the game.  However, the statement made by the Truce woman is at odds with your suggestion.  She says that King Guardia XXXIII is the 33rd descendant to the throne.  If the crown truly were matrilineal, the woman should have said that the king married the 33rd descendant to the throne (thereby becoming the 33rd ascendant)

Of course, I suppose one could argue that the woman actually meant this but chose to use fewer words.

EDIT:

Quote from: Salvadeiro
Plus its the Kingdom of Guardia. Not the Queendom of Guardia lol. But then again, the UK is ruled by a queen... so...yeah.

That's a actually an excellent point!  Regarding your UK counterexample, the reason the UK is currently ruled by a Queen is that Elizabeth had no brothers.  There was no male heir.

ZeaLitY

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Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #51 on: February 24, 2006, 03:15:22 pm »
Inquiry

How does the royal line of the Kingdom of Guardia operate? Does it work through male or female heirs? The facts:

Marle is descended from Aliza, who is descended from Leene.

Theories

Male Heirs

Under this idea, the son or daughter of King Guardia XXI and Queen Leene would have eventually produced Queen Aliza, who would have had to marry back into the family (barring outright incest). This is fine, as twelve generations would have separated their genetics. This idea is supported by the fact that King Guardia XXI is definitely large and in charge during 600 A.D. The royal family may also be extensive enough to allow varied descendants of Leene to exist.

Female Heirs

Usually, males marry into the family. An exception was made when Queen Leene married King Guardia XXI, as a female heir may not have been available. The line proceeded with males marrying in all the way to Marle, who married Crono (and by extension he became a regent). This system is evidenced elsewhere in the game. When King Zeal dies, Janus does not by default become King; rather, Queen Zeal remains in her position. (Note that this is mainly a coincidence.) Sexism is also seemingly absent, as even Ayla was able to be chief in prehistory due to her strength and merit. The Kingdom may be matrilineal but patriarchal. This possibility is wounded slightly by the fact that King Guardia XXXIII is referenced as the 33rd descendant of the throne; this simply may be a turn of phrase, however.

Sentenal

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Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #52 on: February 24, 2006, 03:21:57 pm »
I favor the Male Inheritance, myself.  It could be that between Leene and Marle, there were no male hiers, so they had to go with Queens.  Or King Guardia XXXIII was the hier, and married a distant part of the family that descents from Leene.  But with Guardia XXI's power, and the line saying Guardia XXXIII is the 33rd descendant to the throne (come on, it doesn't get more explicit than that), seem to imply Male hiers except for cases when there is none, in which case its defered to the female.

But really, there is another theory I like more, and its not based on gender.  The Eldest child, regardless of Male or Female, becomes hier to the throne.  That would work for just about all cases you can come up with, with whatever gender is hier or not.  And the Elest child being the family hier is quiet common too, to my knowledge at least (though its normally the eldest son).

AuraTwilight

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Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #53 on: February 24, 2006, 06:56:55 pm »
I'd like to note that Schala is mentioned to be the Crown Princess to the throne.

Namara

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Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #54 on: February 25, 2006, 12:02:48 am »
One thing that should be considered in this argument is the fact that the animation shown when Lucca is talking to Crono might not be literal.  This game was made for kids, and the programmers might have felt that the fact that Leene was Marle's descendant needed some visual explanation.  We can know that we can't take the animation as hard fact because of the fact that the animation only shows 4 women.  Now correct me if I'm wrong, but there would be more than 4 generations in 400 years.  I honestly doubt that the queens would wait until they turned 100 to have their children.

As to the actual argument, I would have to say that it seems that it's either patrilineal or eldest child descent.  It doesn't seem to be matrilineal because the King is described as the descendant, not the spouse of the descendant, to the throne.  One could argue that the king isn't described in this way in 1000 because the queen is dead, but in 600 is seems pretty well explained that the king is the descendant to the throne.  It could also be eldest child descent with the king just happening to be the eldest child in his family.  I don't think we can ever truly know about this one though.

ggy128

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Re: Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #55 on: August 04, 2014, 09:58:36 pm »
Forgive my english

This is what I believe

it could be an Absolute primogeniture, is a law in which the eldest child of the sovereign succeeds to the throne

Marle (Nadia) is the first born child that make her  the crown princess to the throne and Chrono is just her husband

Another possibility is male primogeniture but the successor to the crown must be member of the Guardia dynasty, for example in the eastern Roman Empire Zoe and Theodora were the last of their dynasty and corulers of the empire (Macedonian Dynasty)

Zoe in particular tried to get pregnant in order to preserve her dynasty linage (that means the male married into the family)

So Guardia  could be rule by a male primogeniture law as longer there’s a male if not, the female become the regent of the kingdom (like Zoe and Theodora in the eastern roman empire) and her husband changed his surname and become part of the dynasty line, in this case Chrono will become Chrono Guardia

But I think is  matrilineal or maybe Absolute primogeniture

lets remember one of the CT ending where Frog marry queen Leene
In that finale Nadia was still princess of the kingdom

 This is my theory

I think queen Leene was a noble from a  small branch of the Guardia Line
king Guardia died from his injuries and just what happened in real life when the main branch of the habsburg died it was a small branch of who got the kingdom, the habsburg-lorreine dynasty

So probable the king died without heir, Leene was queen and also member of the Guardia family that make her rightful ruler of the kingdom and then frog married her and her children are still Guardia because males married into the royal family
That would explain why Nadia is still princess of the Kingdom

After all the kingdom name is Guardia only a Guardia can be ruler

Lennis

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Re: Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #56 on: August 12, 2014, 02:16:43 am »
Talk about bumping an old thread.  :shock:

I'm inclined to believe that Guardia is a more or less typical monarchy, where the eldest son is declared the rightful heir to the throne except in cases where there are only daughters to succeed the monarch.  If there are no children at all, the rule of the kingdom passes down to the oldest surviving sibling of the ruler.  What the game depicts as the line of descent from Leene to Nadia cannot be relied upon since there are only a handful of women shown, and King Guardia XXXIII is not shown at all.  It could suggest a matriarchal society where the king rules only in cases where the queen has died, but I think this is unlikely because Nadia clearly has no authority over her father when we see them together.  There is also no in-game evidence of Leene having authority over King Guardia of the middle-ages.

I prefer to defer to the expanded lore of Chrono Trigger when examining these kinds of questions.  The lore that establishes the name Cedric Guardia as the founder of the kingdom.  Using Cedric as a gold standard for expanded lore opens up interesting possibilities for lines of descent, such as what happens when a ruler dies but has no children or siblings to succeed him/her.  Normally in these cases the spouse of the deceased then becomes the head of a new dynasty.  In Guardia however, the ruler must, by law, be a proven descendant of Cedric regardless of any other considerations.  (The kingdom is named after him, after all.)  Therefore, a long-lost cousin twelve generations removed from the royal family would have more of a mandate to rule than a queen with no direct line of descent from Cedric, even if this cousin were a pauper.  Because the kingdom understandably would be thrown into some disarray if this happens, marrying a distant relation into the royal family proper is considered prudent and even desirable, especially if they are very young.  In my novel series, I depict Queen Leene as this distant and youngly-wed relation.  When we see her in the year 600 she is both confident and poised, a result of eight years of education and experience in the castle.  That her husband is half-mad and 22 years her senior does not intimidate her.  She is fully prepared to rule if her husband cannot, and the history that Crono, Nadia, and Lucca know establishes Leene as perhaps the greatest ruler Guardia ever had.  King Aldren, by contrast, is remembered mainly for dying of illness shortly before the Battle of the Span. (The battle of Zenan Bridge in original canon.)

ggy128

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Re: Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #57 on: March 19, 2015, 11:34:26 pm »
like  Lennis said the heir must be a proven descendant of Cedric
without dna test the only way to keep the rule "only cedric children will be rulers" is daughters succeed the ruler

ThatGuy

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Re: Guardia's Odd Inheritance
« Reply #58 on: July 18, 2017, 11:53:50 am »
So... am I missing something? Because Marle could be a direct decedent of Leene even in the first male heir system.

600AD Guardia has son (and whoever else). Who has son (and whoever else). Who has son (and whoever else). Who has son (and whoever else). ... Who has 1000AD Guardia. Who has Marle.

Though personally, I kind of like the eldest child theory, just because. Really, they're all possible.


Also, side note, people keep bringing up how tribes hold women in high regard, etc. This is true, though I don't know how many have the leading... But also note that small tribes under Dunbar's number behave very differently from larger nation like societies. I can't think of an exception to the male dominated (though sometimes I think dominate is too strong a word) large civilizations.

Also, also, I realize this is an older thread, but I like it, so.