Do You Believe in "God"?

[Exodus]

I'm under the impression that typical Christians believe so, or at least that the answer is simple insomuch that we were born to imperfect beings, diminished under the eyes of God because of their act. The Mormons have the Articles of Faith, one of which states "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression", and the reason we are in the state we are is because we had to be, because Adam and Eve had to do what they did, or we would never be born.

Is it just me, or does Mormonism rock?

It... combines logic with belief. Amazing.

And they actually try to explain some things rather than giving you a blank expression and calling you an heretic.

[Sentenal]

I'm under the impression that typical Christians believe so, or at least that the answer is simple insomuch that we were born to imperfect beings, diminished under the eyes of God because of their act. The Mormons have the Articles of Faith, one of which states "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression", and the reason we are in the state we are is because we had to be, because Adam and Eve had to do what they did, or we would never be born.

Is it just me, or does Mormonism rock?

It... combines logic with belief. Amazing.

And they actually try to explain some things rather than giving you a blank expression and calling you an heretic.

Its just you.

[Exodus]

I'm under the impression that typical Christians believe so, or at least that the answer is simple insomuch that we were born to imperfect beings, diminished under the eyes of God because of their act. The Mormons have the Articles of Faith, one of which states "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression", and the reason we are in the state we are is because we had to be, because Adam and Eve had to do what they did, or we would never be born.

Is it just me, or does Mormonism rock?

It... combines logic with belief. Amazing.

And they actually try to explain some things rather than giving you a blank expression and calling you an heretic.

Its just you.

A bold claim. Have you anything to back it up?

[Sentenal]

Look at what you said is logic.

First "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."

And then "the reason we are in the state we are is because we had to be, because Adam and Eve had to do what they did, or we would never be born."

Basically, they don't believe that men will be punished for Adam's sin, yet it is because of Adam's sin that we are in the situation were in (being punished).

[Lord J Esq]

Josh, you disappoint me in your knowledge of Christianity.  I suggest you read the story of the Garden of Eden in Genisis.  Specifically the fall from Eden.  Basically, disobediance brought this upon man. The more you speak of Christianity, the more your knowledge of the religion betrays your claims of what it teachs.

Come on, now. It's a pretty weak argument to disagree with the likes me on grounds of knowledge. That's a fight you will lose.

I have found that Christians--such as yourself--who have never been skeptical of their religious indoctrination, actually know less about their religion than those who encounter it objectively. The fact that you missed the point of my little narrative is an example of this. Burning Z is Muslim, so I was going for an unholy blend of the two religions, but even so the lesson applies to Christianity just as well: According to the religious creed itself, human beings are in an unwinnable position, through no fault of their own, but because of the way your god supposedly created us. I grant freely that religious devouts like you may disagree with my definition of "unwinnable," but that's a matter of personal conviction. Why phrase your argument as such an oblique attack? What should I make of your credibility now?

It's a bit esoteric, Sentenal, but I would say that living in perpetual subordination to God and therefore unable to assume full responsibility for our own destiny, defines "unwinnable." You don't have to agree with me that living beneath God with no hope of surpassing God is the existential short end of the stick, but, really, just get on and say it. And, this time, why not give the community some reasoning to support your views? But be wary of the traditional tack which you implied: The "free will" argument that Christians so commonly invoke on this subject is second only to the "God's mysterious plan" argument in its absurdity, not least of which because it entirely fails to address the point I am raising:

Yes. I am so great, and I will command them to tell me how great I am...several times each day! And then I will afflict them with injuries and bad tempers, in my mercy, and they shall adore me for having created them according to my will. And when their God-given pain clouds their judgment, and the tempers that I gave them arise against me, I shall dip them into the hellfire until their entrails broil in their own juices.

Boil it all down, and Christianity is saying that God created human beings as protons and then punishes us when we're attracted to electrons. It's absurd. And I don't mean that merely as a pejorative; I mean it is literally devoid of logical consistency. To justify our suffering in terms of our own "disobedience" while maintaining that God is supremely powerful above us in every respect, is furthest from a rational proposition.

I would not be so vehemently against your religion if I didn't know so much about it. And the more I learn, the worse it becomes in my eyes. But you don't have to take my word for it. In many threads here on the General Board, I lay out arguments which support my disgust with Christianity and Islam--with especial emphasis on the fundamentalist sectors of these religions. Take a fundamentalist attitude against me, dismiss me out of hand like you tried to do this time, and you'll discredit yourself. You'll convince no one of your views beyond those who are already likeminded.

[Sentenal]

Wow, arrogant, arn't we?  It sounds to me like your sore that you can't be superior to God.

[Lord J Esq]

Wow, arrogant, arn't we?  It sounds to me like your sore that you can't be superior to God.

That's not the sort of reply I would expect from someone who expects to be taken seriously when he tells me I don't know what I am talking about. Who are you, and what have you done with Sentenal?!

[Sentenal]

According to the religious creed itself, human beings are in an unwinnable position, through no fault of their own, but because of the way your god supposedly created us.

Unwinnable?  No sir, Jesus Christ has given us the opportunity to save ourselves.  Winnable.

It's a bit esoteric, Sentenal, but I would say that living in perpetual subordination to God and therefore unable to assume full responsibility for our own destiny, defines "unwinnable." You don't have to agree with me that living beneath God with no hope of surpassing God is the existential short end of the stick, but, really, just get on and say it.

This is what I was refering to.  God is God, we are human.  God > Man.  Its as simple as that.  Just as how you say Mother > Fetus.  However, God does love his children (men).  Man's purpose is to be in a loving relationship with him.  And for a religion to promise you that you will be come god-like is full of itself.

But be wary of the traditional tack which you implied: The "free will" argument that Christians so commonly invoke on this subject is second only to the "God's mysterious plan" argument in its absurdity, not least of which because it entirely fails to address the point I am raising:

Quote:
...

Men have free will, and God has a plan of what he wants us to do.  I really don't want to create a serveral page long debate on free will and God's plan, so thats all I will say there.

The quote you gave is incorrect about what Christians believe.
1.) God is great, whats wrong in stating the truth?  Hes God, remmber?
2.) God doesn't want blind followers (although it seems your refering to Islam there), he wants his children to come into a loving relationship with him.  Its no different from a father wanting his son to love him.
3.) God doesn't inflict people will injury or anything unless there is a good purpose for it.  I'm of the opinion that the ends justifies the means, especially since I believe that this world is secondary to eternity.
4.) God didn't give me tempers or pain.  Man gave it to themselves.
5.) God doesn't damn people.  People damn themselves.

Hows that?

[Mystik3eb]

First "We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression."

That refers to when we are judged for our actions and what was in our minds and hearts in the next life, not for this life.

Really though, Mormonism is full of logic more than other religions. You just don't seem to accept the possibility that you may be wrong with your beliefs. That's the nice thing about Mormons, too, I've met fewer Mormons who attack other religions than members of any other Christianity. Not a very Christ-like attribute.

The difference between Mormons and other Christianity is defined as such: Mormons are not so much "the most Christian religion of all Christianity" as "more Christ-following than Christian". Christ stated a very clear law that fulfilled the law of Moses, and I've met far fewer Christians outside of Mormonism who really stick to that law Christ gave. Christ is everything to that religion, the religion is based on all things Christ. These people have a deep love for Christ and his teachings, and a good Mormon strives to do their best to become like Christ, which is after all his instructions when he said:

"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect." -Matthew 5:48

That's a pretty blatant command, and Jesus spends the three years of his ministry teaching the people what Christ-like attributes are. Not only to not commit adultery, but to not even lust after a woman (which is obviously impossible, but the point is to strive against that desire). Not only to not kill, but to not bring harm to another (except in self defense, that's a given). Things like that.



Hey, Josh. Here's my opinion on the whole religion thing. All the teachings I've learned in the Mormon church are pretty logical and make complete sense. The more you discover about it, the more true it feels and the more it makes sense. You can really begin to feel the desire to do good and fight against temptation and sin and try your hardest to become the person God longs for you to be. Heavenly rewards, eternal life in an exhalted form...such wonderful, happy things to look forward to, and this lifestyle keeps many people close to the "Spirit" and makes them very very happy, even through all the trials and tribulations their choice to do so brings them. To them it's worth it, even if there really is nothing on the other side. However these people, many of them are convinced of the truth. They believe the feeling of the "Spirit" to be more than some feeling our brain conjured up in an effort to satisfy our personal goal (which is what I came to believe it was after a while, though...who really knows, right?) It's something that can't be proven wrong as of yet, when all things come together...

...so why'd I leave it? Because even though I lived that life, I gave up all my 'evil' desires and sins because I believed it was right, and I tried my hardest to discover it was true, all I had was that 'feeling' that was supposed to be the "Spirit", and only very rarely. I was a very good Mormon, though given I had my problems which I struggled with all the time; everyone does. It's hard, being a good Mormon, especially with the way the world is now, is very VERY hard, and I have incredible respect for good, active Mormons, and hell all other Christians who fight against what they believe is wrong and surrounds them overwhelmingly to do the things they believe is right. And because all I had was the feeling, and I didn't receive an absolute knowledge of the truth, as had been promised in the teachings, then I realized that I would never learn the truth by simply believing in it all.

My definition of "knowing" became "through experience". We'll never know if China exists and what it's like, until we've been there. Sure, we can believe it's there and what it's like, and no one will argue that, but you still don't know, right? Same idea. Jesus could've walked the earth and performed miracles, but you don't know that, you can't unless you were walking around with him and seeing all the things he did. Beliefs argue that "seeing isn't believing", but I'm not talking about just 'seeing', I'm talking about seeing, hearing, feeling, smelling...something that proves to the senses it's real. Tons of people in all religions claim they know, when all they have is a belief they're nurtured and cared for. Many base that "knowledge" on a feeling they felt once. As I stated, I've come to find that we can feel very strange and random things at times, inexplicably. Our brains are quite powerful and capable, we just have no idea how to unlock most of it's potential. Maybe if we did, we'd discover the spiritual realm many people believe in, and be able to see the spirits and discover with our own senses the truth of the matter. But we don't.

I started my questioning at that point, and realized I was incredibly unhappy living the way I was, and I didn't even know if there really WAS anything on the other side, if what I'd been taught and lived by my whole life was really true and worth it. What if there was nothing? Then I will have lived the only life I'll ever have very unhappy and hoping for more when it would never come. That's why I abadoned that life, because I don't wanna risk wasting the only life I may ever have.

For people willing to live a life based on faith, and who would be happy with that, I'd totally recommend them checking out any and all religions (though I'd personally recommend Mormonism because of my personal experience with being very very satisifed with it as a whole). However I don't believe they have the right to force their morals on others, as I believe Exodus said earlier.

...o_O...

[Burning Zeppelin]

First of all, Im not linking pain and suffering to Original Sin. In fact we do not believe in original sin. We do not believe that curiosity and knowledge is bad. Maybe the fruit was created to show the consequences of action. We do not believe that it was Eve that ate the fruit, therefore it is womens fault. We do not believe women are less respected then men, as for example, the prophet stated that the mother is to be 3 times more respected then the father. Ok look, men and women arent equal. men are generally physically smarter, women creatively smarter, and so on. They are not equal. But on the last day, we will be treated equally. That doesnt mean that on earth women are to be downgraded, no. Wives are to obey husbands. Why? Well, the husband is to provide EVERYTHING to the wives. Husbands are to please the wives etc. And please dont blend Chrisitanity and Islam J. They are worlds apart, even though its the same god. And look, how can you say that god is unfair and stuff. God is god. Good and evil is defined in that way. Get over it. So, god has millions of servants and can command us. Wow. He created us.

Plus, Mormonism is so cool coz it has a place called Kelob.

[SilentMartyr]

3.) God doesn't inflict people will injury or anything unless there is a good purpose for it.  I'm of the opinion that the ends justifies the means, especially since I believe that this world is secondary to eternity.

Hahahahaha! You must be joking. You have to be. I used to be a Christian, and then my mother died. She was not a bad person, she was an upstanding citizen who did nothing wrong. The same goes for the rest of our family, but yet after she died our entire life was torn apart. My father was never the same person and we have never been a family since then.

I'd love to find the reasoning behind that magical decision.

[ZeaLitY]

I am not endorsing either side of the argument here, but people who often argue and question why God allows wrong to be done upon the earth usually have missed the point about free agency, and the concept of salvation guaranteed through a good and respectable life spent by choice on the earth. Conversely, one can choose to do evil; the world is free.

[Radical_Dreamer]

Sentenal, I think the "Plan" in of itself is part of what Josh means by us being in an unwinnable position. It detracts from our "ownership" of ourselves. If God has a plan for me, and that which I do to stick to the plan, which I'll never know, is "good", and that which I do that strays from the plan is "evil", then my life is not my own life to live. That is, even with free will, my decisions are ultimately secondary in the determination of how I live my life.

You believe that God is akin to a father to mankind. Do you believe that a father has the right to tell his (adult) children how to live? What the purpose of their existance is? Do berate them and cast them out should they fail to live up to this arbitrary purpose? Does a parent own his children?

Mind you, it's not that I don't believe that life has a purpose. I believe that all lifeforms share the same purpose; reproduction. Not a purpose I chose, or that any living thing choses, but ultimately, I believe it is the answer to why we are here. The difference, then, between your belief in an external purpose and mine, is in the moralization. I am not immoral should I fail to reproduce. That purpose is there, yet not all life forms will succeed in achieving that goal*. It is not right or wrong to succeed or fail, however; it simply is.

*At this point, I'm referring to successful reproduction. It's a recursive definition, though. How do you know if you reproduced successfully? If your offspring reproduce successfully.

[Mystik3eb]

Zeality answered it very well according to - at least some - religious beliefs, but RD followed with a valid, oft-asked question:

If God has a plan for me, and that which I do to stick to the plan, which I'll never know, is "good", and that which I do that strays from the plan is "evil", then my life is not my own life to live. That is, even with free will, my decisions are ultimately secondary in the determination of how I live my life.

An answer to that is that we aren't given "free agency" so much as "agency", where we can choose to do whatever we want but consequences still happen. Free agency implies more of a "action without consequence" life. Judgement on the other side is determined based on what we did with our freedom to choose. Supposedly the point of life is to discover the truth through faith, and then choose the way of the Lord, to find eternal happiness (whether it's becoming like a God, serving God, whatever people believe happens to the best of us).

Don't like the sound of that? Well if you don't have an eternal perspective in mind, then I don't either, and obviously I've abandoned the belief of an eternal life.

The difference, then, between your belief in an external purpose and mine, is in the moralization. I am not immoral should I fail to reproduce. That purpose is there, yet not all life forms will succeed in achieving that goal. It is not right or wrong to succeed or fail, however; it simply is.

Indeed, besides the fact that many people are born without the physical ability to reproduce. My heart goes out to them.

[Sentenal]

Hahahahaha! You must be joking. You have to be. I used to be a Christian, and then my mother died. She was not a bad person, she was an upstanding citizen who did nothing wrong. The same goes for the rest of our family, but yet after she died our entire life was torn apart. My father was never the same person and we have never been a family since then.

Sorry about your mother, but Death=Man's fate.

Sentenal, I think the "Plan" in of itself is part of what Josh means by us being in an unwinnable position. It detracts from our "ownership" of ourselves. If God has a plan for me, and that which I do to stick to the plan, which I'll never know, is "good", and that which I do that strays from the plan is "evil", then my life is not my own life to live. That is, even with free will, my decisions are ultimately secondary in the determination of how I live my life.

People are supposed to do the right thing, and make the right choices.  God's plan for most people involves simply making the right choices and doing the right thing.  Should you stop obeying the law simply to show that the Government doesn't run your life?

You believe that God is akin to a father to mankind. Do you believe that a father has the right to tell his (adult) children how to live? What the purpose of their existance is? Do berate them and cast them out should they fail to live up to this arbitrary purpose? Does a parent own his children?

You people keep saying that God berates and cast his children out.  Firstly, a good father SHOULD berate his children when they do something wrong.  Secondly, (this is the part you guys don't listen to) GOD DOES NOT DAMN PEOPLE.

And Mystik, its good to know that most of the Mormons you know are very good, honorable people.  Its also sad that Christians you know is the opposite.  My situtation is the opposite from yours.  Most Mormons I knew in HS hate their religion due to the constraints of the Religion, and most Mormons I know now have a disconnect from reality, or the hate their religion.  And most Christians I know are good, kind, honorable people.