Great President Bush

[Kazuki]

These people in particular can die. Mother Nature doesn't want them, apparently.

Neither do I.

Nightmare, here's a hypothetical situation. Let's say you have a gun to the head of one of "these people." Now think, VERY deeply. Would you pull the trigger? Basically, you're saying you are.

Dude, they would probably kill me before I take the gun out.

I'm hoping by dodging the question it's made you consider it with somewhat more serious and mature thought than you had...

[Lord J Esq]

We failed those people.

No, I am sitting in my house, YOU failed those people

As a society, we collectively share responsibility for President Bush's failure to deal with the disaster in New Orleans effectively. Of course, those of you who voted for Bush share a greater percentage of that responsibility, but I acknowledge my part too. I wish more of my fellow liberals would do more than simply complain, and actually act on their beliefs.

Anyway, if you feel so strongly about human lives, fine. But I don't. There's too many of us, and A lot of humanity is taking from society without giving back. They're parasites who are bringing chips of the Earth down with them. We're all going to die eventually. What's the big deal? It's not that there are MORE people dying, it's that they're all dying in one specific area and it's on the news.

I don't know if you can believe me, but your rubric is terribly flawed. If there are people out there who don't deserve to live, poverty is not a good measure of that. Your words are terribly ill-conceived.

And to Lord J Esq: Yes we have, and that's why this is such a damn tragedy. Not because Bush misunderestimated the situation, or because the liberals were too busy offending people left and right.

You are right that there is more to it than simply blaming Bush. To be honest, I had no idea how poor New Orleans was until this disgrace. What we have here is a sociological failure here, bigger than George W. Bush and even the entire Republican party. We have poor priorities as a nation, and as individuals. We are misguided, weak-minded, pig-headed, anti-intellectual, and undisciplined. We speak much more kindness than we perpetrate. Our ideals are much loftier than our handiwork. It is this culture which elected those who lead our country today. Nor are liberals granted a wholesale exemption from culpability. Too many of them are just as petty and miserable. Just because they're on the correct side of the issues doen't mean they personally are upstanding, decent, reasonable people.

It's always a tragedy when a major disaster snuffs out so many lives at once. And that tragedy is far worse when the disaster was preventable, as it was here. But despite all of this, I have such little hope for the teeming millions as a whole...I really expect they will learn nothing. And that, more so than anything else, is why we failed those who died in the South, in New Orleans...and those who have yet to perish because we are an imperfect people with small dreams and bad judgment.

[Lord J Esq]

Lord J Esq, you quote my response, yet talking about the hurricane... I didn't say anything about that there.

I must have gotten mixed up in my quotes. This thread is moving rather quickly. Sorry about that.

[Silvercry]

It's always a tragedy when a major disaster snuffs out so many lives at once. And that tragedy is far worse when the disaster was preventable, as it was here. But despite all of this, I have such little hope for the teeming millions as a whole...I really expect they will learn nothing. And that, more so than anything else, is why we failed those who died in the South, in New Orleans...and those who have yet to perish because we are an imperfect people with small dreams and bad judgment.

That is a problem not unique to the United States.

I've always said mankind is fundamentally stupid race.  Why the Goddess hasn't wiped us form the face of the Earth is beyond me.  Her eternal compassions shall be her undoing.

There is one thing in Chrono-verse that right true in reality, and that is the planet would be better off without us.

Sorry, went off an a tangent there...

[Hindu_Pez]

Your just a librel, I deal with you guys all the time(Librels).

For God's sake, man, learn how to spell "liberal" correctly.

[Zaperking]

I'm immortal. Besides, Japan has treaties and political loopholes I can take advantage of.

Anyway, if you feel so strongly about human lives, fine. But I don't. There's too many of us, and A lot of humanity is taking from society without giving back. They're parasites who are bringing chips of the Earth down with them. We're all going to die eventually. What's the big deal? It's not that there are MORE people dying, it's that they're all dying in one specific area and it's on the news.

I agree.
Look, It's America.. The richest country and most powerful in the world. And from a little hurricane, they're asking their neighbouring countries and their own citizens to donate? WTF... Utter Bull Shit >.>

It's a natural phenominon, get over it. The worst thing about it is that now petrol prices have sky rocketed, I mean, more people died in the boxing day tsunami >.>

[ZeaLitY]

I simply dislike the summary judgment being passed on the city of New Orleans. I've heard more than one person say, in real life, that the city got what it had coming to it considering all the hedonistic activity that thrives there. Tell me, then, why the French Quarter remained high and dry? And you cannot simply label every impoverished person a worthless human being.

[V_Translanka]

Exactly, if that were true, then Las Vegas would be a burning pile of ash...not to mention some of the shadier places in the world...I'm looking at you Amsterdam (because I want to visit you!)...

As I may  have said before, they got what they deserve for living in the path of annual hurricanes...I feel bad for the pets

[Sentenal]

Look, It's America.. The richest country and most powerful in the world. And from a little hurricane, they're asking their neighbouring countries and their own citizens to donate? WTF... Utter Bull Shit

I don't recall Bush asking for aid.  Other countries offered it of their own free will.

[Daniel Krispin]

Lessing the UN's influence on out country.

Wait, was that a good thing? Honestly, as a Canadian, I was most distressed when the US decided to act not only unilaterally, but openly against the will of the UN - in fact, I was wondering at that moment if it would not lead to the near fall of the UN, and near on its heels half of world order. As much as one country might think themselves to be right, they cannot simply act alone like that. Whether or not the US should have invaded is to me beside the point: that they invaded without the consent of the UN was wrong, and put world order in jeporday, thus a very selfish move. There are higher laws than those of a country, and these are dictated by the UN. What the US did was nothing short of being a vigilante - and that is illegal. Someone in their 'family' got killed and, whilst the police said 'don't do anything, we're working on it' they went out, got a gun, and killed the one responsable - along with some innocent members of his family along the way ('he' being Iraq as a whole - not all of them were terrorists, after all.) The point is, as a Canadian, I saw what the US did in that to be one of the stupidest acts of bravado and selfishness of the last hundred years. The League of Nations failed - do they want the same to happen to the UN, just so they can do whatever they wish, and be their own law? Such actions are the first step into attempting to forge an empire, you know.

Anyway, as you know, I generally agree with you. But as a foreigner looking at the US' foreign affairs from an outside perspective, it left me a little unsettled. In fact, that move rattled me more than the September 11th attacks: it showed that the UN was essentially ineffective if a country wished to bully its way into doing what it wanted. What, now, would stop the US from becoming an empire?

[Eriol]

Whether or not the US should have invaded is to me beside the point: that they invaded without the consent of the UN was wrong

Why is it wrong?  The UN has no legitimacy in any way.  MOST of the members do not have democratic governments, and thus are NOT representative of the peoples of their countries, and even the ones that do, it's one vote PER COUNTRY, not per capita voting.  So the power is NOT from the people.  It is self-appointed, which is NOT legitimate.

I can understand how this could be confusing to a Canadian though, as the media and government continually try and convince you that you have been "granted" rights by THEM, and not them given power by YOU.  They try and reinforce this at every turn, so I'm not suprised you have been taken in on more levels than JUST Canada's government, but you take that for the world too.

Why is the UN a "stamp of legitimacy" to you?  It's a dictator's society that a few legits happen to be in as well.

The League of Nations failed - do they want the same to happen to the UN

Actually I do.  As I said above, the UN is completely corrupt and something that should have been abandoned the minute they gave Communist China a seat on the Security Council.

And remember the League of Nations failed because the USA was not there, AND they were impotent in preventing WWII.  They were never a true power influencing world order, only an opinionated debate club.  And so is the UN.  It SHOULD fail the same way.

it showed that the UN was essentially ineffective if a country wished to bully its way into doing what it wanted.

EXACTLY.  The ONLY reason the UN had any semblance of authority was the guns backing it up, primarily from the US, Great Britian, etc.  Once  they disagree with the direction the UN goes, the UN is useless, and is merely used to smuggle money into dictator's pockets (and the families of officials, like Kofi Annan's son).

What, now, would stop the US from becoming an empire?

Their own citizens, which since the collapse of the USSR was the only thing.  And it was enough.  And the US people don't WANT an empire.  They want self-determination only.  This only means extending influence when somebody ELSE can screw them over.  After the elimination of their enemies, they'd be just as happy to let everybody else go fuck themselves without lifting a finger.  JUST LIKE EVERY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD!! (including Canada, which like you I'm a citizen of)

[Lord J Esq]

Ah, it's conservative versus conservative! Where's my caviar? I'll sit back and watch.

Edit: But, in all seriousness, one world government is the inevitable destiny of the human species, provided we don't blow ourselves to smithereens first. The UN had a chance at being the framework for that, once upon a time. It was as much the rabid contempt of xenophobic ultraconservatives as it was the corruption of two-bit despots that wasted that beautiful potential. Shame on them, and shame on you too, Eriol. Sometimes, if your voice is loud enough, or your fists solid enough, you can make your prophecies self-fulfilling.

[Sentenal]

Well, since its Daniel, a fellow conservative, I believe I can talk about my UN beliefs without someone getting ticked off.

Firstly, we must examine what the Leadership of a Country is responisble for.  The leadership is responsible for bettering their people, and strengthing it's people.  It is not responisble for strengthening other people, unless by doing so strengthens its own people.

There is nothing within the US Consitution, the supreame ruling document of this country, that says we must work with other countrys for the betterment of the world, rather than betterment of the single nation.  As America stands in the world today, its the only super power left, with China as a rising semi-super power as of this moment.

The UN is a basically where little tiny dictatorships meet up, and try and influence other countries.  I believe its idealistic to say that the UN works for the betterment of the entire world, which you seem to believe.  The UN is a tool used by weak countries for a unproportional share of power.  They vote for whats in the best intrest of their country.

As it stands today, the rest of the world stands to gain, if the US looses power.  The US is our own soverign nation, not a member of a world governing league.  The less influence other nations has on this country, the more independant and free this country will be from the rest of the world.

Not to mention that the UN is worthless without the US, since we are just about all its muscle.  Plus the UN is a cowardly organization (only took one bomb in Iraq for them to run).  Plus, it is so very corrupt.  Refer to the Oil for Food schandal.

And those are my thoughts.  Enjoy.

[Leebot]

I'm immortal. Besides, Japan has treaties and political loopholes I can take advantage of.

Anyway, if you feel so strongly about human lives, fine. But I don't. There's too many of us, and A lot of humanity is taking from society without giving back. They're parasites who are bringing chips of the Earth down with them. We're all going to die eventually. What's the big deal? It's not that there are MORE people dying, it's that they're all dying in one specific area and it's on the news.

Overinflated ego... check.
Disregard for human life... check.
Lack of differentiation between forms of dying... check.

Chance of turning into a mass-murderer if given the chance: frighteningly high.

Alright, a couple of notes on the UN and the roles of nations:

First of all, WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!? How the hell is an American life more valuable than an Iraqi life? Do you realize that if every country only did what was best for their own, we would be significantly worse off overall? Should the US nuke every nation on earth that has oil but no nukes of their own, just so they won't have to pay for the oil? The whole in the ozone layer is over Australasia now, right? So, why should we care if we cause it to expand by polluting the atmosphere? It's cheaper, afterall.

We're all human, people! Get off your ****ing high-horse of being American or Japanese or Canadian or whatever. You're human. You're a citizen of Earth, so act like it for once. Do what's best for your own people: humans. Stop holding to arbitrary lines between them, or you'll only hurt yourself in the end.

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Sorry, but people can be so short-sighted sometimes. The urge to browbeat is sometimes insurmountable.

[Kazuki]

I'm immortal. Besides, Japan has treaties and political loopholes I can take advantage of.

Anyway, if you feel so strongly about human lives, fine. But I don't. There's too many of us, and A lot of humanity is taking from society without giving back. They're parasites who are bringing chips of the Earth down with them. We're all going to die eventually. What's the big deal? It's not that there are MORE people dying, it's that they're all dying in one specific area and it's on the news.

Overinflated ego... check.
Disregard for human life... check.
Lack of differentiation between forms of dying... check.

Chance of turning into a mass-murderer if given the chance: frighteningly high.

Alright, a couple of notes on the UN and the roles of nations:

First of all, WHAT THE **** IS WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE!? How the hell is an American life more valuable than an Iraqi life? Do you realize that if every country only did what was best for their own, we would be significantly worse off overall? Should the US nuke every nation on earth that has oil but no nukes of their own, just so they won't have to pay for the oil? The whole in the ozone layer is over Australasia now, right? So, why should we care if we cause it to expand by polluting the atmosphere? It's cheaper, afterall.

We're all human, people! Get off your ****ing high-horse of being American or Japanese or Canadian or whatever. You're human. You're a citizen of Earth, so act like it for once. Do what's best for your own people: humans. Stop holding to arbitrary lines between them, or you'll only hurt yourself in the end.

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Sorry, but people can be so short-sighted sometimes. The urge to browbeat is sometimes insurmountable.

Leebot, you've proven to be one of the only voices of reason here. I'm glad to see that some people here understand the weight of what is happening, and is not taking a scarily deconstructive view towards it (AuraTwilight).