Chrono Trigger: Themes: Can You Change Time?

[Zenning]

What do you think were some of the overall premises of Chrono Trigger?

Was its overall message largely pessimistic, or optimistic?

If you ask me, one of the overall themes you have in the game is that you CAN'T rewrite history.

There are indeed instances in the game in which you COULD change things, like Lucca's mother's legs getting mauled in Taban's machine, or reviving Fiona's woods back from the desert.

But, for the most part, I do believe the overall message of the game is that you CAN'T rewrite history, and that you must "Seize the day!" and do what you can in the present.

Think about it: the characters weren't able to stop the advent of Lavos despite all of their time-traveling.

They were, however, finally able to defeat Lavos in 1999AD, but that event was after their own time; it's a message along the lines of "work towards a brighter future," and Lavos being representative of whatever plights we may befall if we don't do our part in the world.

...

Other instances of this theme, are in Glenn/Frog, and Magus.

Glenn wasn't able to do anything about himself being changed into a frog, much less could he have helped Cyrus, and so he broods. However, he eventually managed to face up to things with help from Crono & Co, and he was able to come to terms with the death of his friend, Cyrus, as well as his own disfigurement, and decided to do something about the sad state of the world.

The same with Magus; he ended up traveling back in time to Zeal, but was unable to do anything of the downfall of his home anymore than the first time around, even if he could've foreseen it. However, his experiences with Crono and company allowed him to come to terms with it, and he might've had a part in trying to bring Schala back in Chrono Cross, along with Belthasar.

Your thoughts?

[Hadriel]

Dude, you've got it completely wrong.  They did stop Lavos; it's just that someone else came along and fucked it up again.  The thing that Chrono exalts is the power of free will.  Saying that the theme of a game where you alter history repeatedly is that you can't do jack is certainly ignorant, arguably stupid and bordering on insane.

[Opunaesala]

Dude, you've got it completely wrong.  They did stop Lavos; it's just that someone else came along and fucked it up again.  The thing that Chrono exalts is the power of free will.  Saying that the theme of a game where you alter history repeatedly is that you can't do jack is certainly ignorant, arguably stupid and bordering on insane.

True.

[Zenning]

Ahh, but my point is they changed, what was to them from their point of view, the FUTURE and NOT the PAST.

My point is, I believe the message of the game is that you cannot change the PAST, but you can work in the present to change the FUTURE.

[Opunaesala]

Ahh, but my point is they changed, what was to them from their point of view, the FUTURE and NOT the PAST.

My point is, I believe the message of the game is that you cannot change the PAST, but you can work in the present to change the FUTURE.

You can't push a couch when you are five feet in front of it, can you?  Think about it, you have to be behind it to push it.  Just like time.  You are arguing some higher theme when it just comes down to simple quantum physics dude.

[Zenning]

Ahh, but my point is they changed, what was to them from their point of view, the FUTURE and NOT the PAST.

My point is, I believe the message of the game is that you cannot change the PAST, but you can work in the present to change the FUTURE.

You can't push a couch when you are five feet in front of it, can you?  Think about it, you have to be behind it to push it.  Just like time.  You are aruing some higher theme when it just comes down to simple quantum physics dude.

Hahahaahaa...

...I guess you're correct, the point I raised was idiotic. ^_^;

you've won this time, but I'll be back! :D

[Sir Frog]

My point is, I believe the message of the game is that you cannot change the PAST, but you can work in the present to change the FUTURE.

Nah, that's the message of Final Fantasy VIII.  

You can't push a couch when you are five feet in front of it, can you? Think about it, you have to be behind it to push it. Just like time. You are arguing some higher theme when it just comes down to simple quantum physics dude.

Actually, fom five feet away you can push the couch with a stick.
Stick:Couch::Time Machine:Time O.o

[Opunaesala]

My point is, I believe the message of the game is that you cannot change the PAST, but you can work in the present to change the FUTURE.

Nah, that's the message of Final Fantasy VIII.  

You can't push a couch when you are five feet in front of it, can you? Think about it, you have to be behind it to push it. Just like time. You are arguing some higher theme when it just comes down to simple quantum physics dude.

Actually, fom five feet away you can push the couch with a stick.
Stick:Couch::Time Machine:Time O.o

It would have to be a big stick and you would need help most likely(which is cheating, plus you'd be pushing it the wrong direction).  I stick by my statement.

Plus with a stick you are more likely to pierce than push the couch.

[Sir Frog]

I was just kidding.  But surely you can think of a way to pull a couch with a stick--a hockey stick, perhaps.  All right, I feel I'm compromising my integrity by writing this, so, excuse me.  *runs away*

[GrayLensman]

Ahh, but my point is they changed, what was to them from their point of view, the FUTURE and NOT the PAST.

My point is, I believe the message of the game is that you cannot change the PAST, but you can work in the present to change the FUTURE.

Robo changed the past, from his point of view.

[Chrono'99]

Ahh, but my point is they changed, what was to them from their point of view, the FUTURE and NOT the PAST.

My point is, I believe the message of the game is that you cannot change the PAST, but you can work in the present to change the FUTURE.

Personally, I think the subject of the game is not even time traveling to begin with. Rather, it's a story about the Planet (or the "sum" of all the living beings) which is dying and wants some people to save her (the "dream of our planet" as it is stated in CT and CC). That's why the party don't change the past: they don't want to change the past, they just relive the memories of the Entity and want to prevent its Apocalypse.

[Lord J Esq]

Just to take it a step further, I don't think the Chrono games are a story about time traveling and fate, and I don't think they're a story about the Planet either.

They are a story about human nature, about what we are, where we've been, and where we're going. They are a story about our greatest strengths and the very worst within us. They are a story about our relationship with the world in which we live, and the importance of preserving the harmony of that relationship, balancing our power for self-determination with our great obligation to participate in a world that is more than just us, and on which we fundamentally depend.

[Sir Frog]

Just to take it a step further, I don't think the Chrono games are a story about time traveling and fate, and I don't think they're a story about the Planet either.

They are a story about human nature, about what we are, where we've been, and where we're going. They are a story about our greatest strengths and the very worst within us. They are a story about our relationship with the world in which we live, and the importance of preserving the harmony of that relationship, balancing our power for self-determination with our great obligation to participate in a world that is more than just us, and on which we fundamentally depend.

I think you took it a step too far.  As usual, though, I admire your prose (even though your post is plagued by subject-verb disagreement!).

[Shadow_Dragon]

Sir Frog, although I dislike Lord J esq's purposefully formal (I consider it to be too formal for a forum, but that could just be how he writes normally) and usually long posts becuase of the formality and length, his post doesn't have any subject-verb disagreement. I think you were trying to comment on the "they are a story..." things, but that's subject-predicate nominitive number disagreement, which, as far as I know, isn't grammatically wrong.


It seems that a lot of people think that CT emphasizes the power of free will and the absence of fate; can someone try to explain to me WHY they think that? It seems to me that people think "Oh, they changed the future... so they exercised free will and went against fate" and don't think any deeper than that. I'll explain my views as to how CT emphasizes fate and a lack of free will if anyone wants to share their side.

[Sir Frog]

Whoops, you're right.  There was no subject-verb disagreement.  For some reason I thought that Lord J esq had the word they, then a nonrestrictive clause, and then the word is.  I don't know where I got that idea.  You'll note that the other posts I made this past hour have been plagued by run-on sentences and other syntactical and grammatical faux pas.  I think my brain is just switched off.  

(As for they are a story, you're right about that being (mostly) harmless.  I had no true grievances with that construction, although I would certainly have rephrased it.)
 
Oh, and I said I admired Lord J esq's style, not that I liked it.