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1141
Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: What I'm talking about: The Cross fiasco
« on: December 03, 2008, 09:38:43 pm »
RPG's are a type of art form. As such they are subject to objective critique based on how well the game is constructed/how well the plot flows/how well the battle system works, etc. They are also subject to subjective critique, which includes whether or not a particular individual prefers the game, it's music, it's plot, etc.
So, this ginormous and heated debate can be narrowed down to the following two sentences (though I doubt people will shut up about it):
1) Is Chrono Trigger objectively a better game than Chrono Cross? I'd say yes. Chrono Trigger is a better made and well rounded game, but they are definitely two of the greatest RPG's ever made.
2) Is Chrono Trigger subjectively a better game than Chrono Cross? Well, that's your own damn opinion. Some people would say "yea", some "nay", but in the end - who the hell cares what other people think? Subjective criticisms are unfounded and of personal opinion.
Both games are wonderful games, and both games are way better than the majority of other RPG's out there.
So, this ginormous and heated debate can be narrowed down to the following two sentences (though I doubt people will shut up about it):
1) Is Chrono Trigger objectively a better game than Chrono Cross? I'd say yes. Chrono Trigger is a better made and well rounded game, but they are definitely two of the greatest RPG's ever made.
2) Is Chrono Trigger subjectively a better game than Chrono Cross? Well, that's your own damn opinion. Some people would say "yea", some "nay", but in the end - who the hell cares what other people think? Subjective criticisms are unfounded and of personal opinion.
Both games are wonderful games, and both games are way better than the majority of other RPG's out there.
1142
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Time Bastard not needed to account for Serge's memories.
« on: December 03, 2008, 09:18:13 pm »
I faced a dilemma of whether to put this in "Plot/characters" for the plot aspect of this post, "Artifacts" because of the Chrono Cross, or "Time, Space and Dimensions" because of it's implications for Cross's ending, but I decided to post it here.
I recently played through Chrono Trigger and Cross back to back as they are two of my favorite RPG's and I hoped to elucidate more of their intricate plots. Well I noticed something in the script of Cross that may have relevance to the ending that was not mentioned in the Compendium's "Chrono Cross Resolution" article. So here it goes:
After talking with Belthesar in the Viper Manor illusion in Terra Tower, the Crono apparition says a bunch of stuff about the Chrono Cross, elucidating it's function in unifying dimensions, including the following:
So, my interpretation of the ending of Cross is like so:
When Schala/Kid is referring to everyone "forgetting their memories of the journey", she is most likely referring to the fact that time will "restart" from the point of the split in 1010 A.D. and they will not remember their adventure at first (but perhaps will eventually). This is further supported by the party members with Serge at the Darkness Beyond Time talking about things they will do in the future. However, unlike the Compendium's analysis, I propose that complicated Time Bastard scenario's are not needed to explain why Serge retains his memories at the end of the story.
I propose that the Chrono Cross literally has the ability to transfer memories, akin to the ability of the Dragon Tear before it to transfer the consciousness (and memories) of one individual into another's body. At the end of the game, Serge remembers all details of his adventure because of this abililty of the Chrono Cross, and nothing more. The memories of Serge from the DBT were transferred into the Serge at Opassa Beach. Or perhaps their consciousnesses were actually fused together to make one, as is also implied by the above quote.
It's likely that Schala/Kid's memories were also transferred into the Kid present on the mainland in this new Ideal Timeline. After that she would probably seek out Serge in El Nido, which may explain the white dress in another cutscene - she has regained memories both of the previous adventure and of her life as Schala.
My hypothesis that Time Bastard is not needed to explain Serge's memory of the journey further simplifies complications with the so-called "Ideal Timeline", which makes it especially attractive as a possibility. When the two dimensions are merged, presumably history restarts from the original point of the split, with the history of both dimensions going to the DBT in favor of a new timeline beginning. But, how does one account for all the instances of TB/TTI and time travel that occur in each separate timeline after the split? You run into many, many problems when trying to account for them. For example, if one character time travelled in one dimension, but his counter-part in the other did not - in the Ideal Timeline is the character Time Bastarded out, or not?
So I propose that in the Ideal Timeline, all instances of TB/TTI are preserved in the timeline before the split in 1010 A.D., but all instances of TB/TTI that occurred specific to each dimension are not preserved after the original time of the split in 1010 A.D.
This is the simplest explanation for the creation of an Ideal Timeline, because events would proceed as follows:
- All story-related events up until the split would be subject to TB/TTI, including Serge and Wazuki re-emerging from the Dead Sea.
- After the original time of the split in 1010 A.D., the Records of Fate would suddenly become inactive, because their transmissions are not preserved by TTI/TB. Events pertaining to the lives of normal people would presumably proceed similar to Home World.
- After 1010 A.D., Wazuki would presumably not turn into Lynx as a biological terminal for FATE because FATE no longer exists, or he might but would not be controlled by FATE. Lucca would not be abducted and the orphanage would not be burned.
- It was Lynx that manipulated the Porrean government and the Acacia Dragoons, not the Records of FATE. Without Lynx around, Porre would not invade El Nido and the Acacia Dragoons would still rule the islands.
- In 1020 A.D., Serge regains the memories of the adventure. The Kid/Schala that is probably on the mainland likely also remembers the adventure, and seeks Serge out in El Nido. Blah blah blah and they get married happily ever after.
Quite a concise theory that passes Occam's Razor if I do say so myself. It neatly account both for Serge's memories at the end of the story and for the existence of the Ideal Timeline, without having to account for Time Bastard events during the story of Chrono Cross at all. Discuss!
I recently played through Chrono Trigger and Cross back to back as they are two of my favorite RPG's and I hoped to elucidate more of their intricate plots. Well I noticed something in the script of Cross that may have relevance to the ending that was not mentioned in the Compendium's "Chrono Cross Resolution" article. So here it goes:
After talking with Belthesar in the Viper Manor illusion in Terra Tower, the Crono apparition says a bunch of stuff about the Chrono Cross, elucidating it's function in unifying dimensions, including the following:
Quote
Crono:
It has the power to cross
space and time and unify
people's thoughts and feelings...
It has the power to
transfer memories...
So, my interpretation of the ending of Cross is like so:
When Schala/Kid is referring to everyone "forgetting their memories of the journey", she is most likely referring to the fact that time will "restart" from the point of the split in 1010 A.D. and they will not remember their adventure at first (but perhaps will eventually). This is further supported by the party members with Serge at the Darkness Beyond Time talking about things they will do in the future. However, unlike the Compendium's analysis, I propose that complicated Time Bastard scenario's are not needed to explain why Serge retains his memories at the end of the story.
I propose that the Chrono Cross literally has the ability to transfer memories, akin to the ability of the Dragon Tear before it to transfer the consciousness (and memories) of one individual into another's body. At the end of the game, Serge remembers all details of his adventure because of this abililty of the Chrono Cross, and nothing more. The memories of Serge from the DBT were transferred into the Serge at Opassa Beach. Or perhaps their consciousnesses were actually fused together to make one, as is also implied by the above quote.
It's likely that Schala/Kid's memories were also transferred into the Kid present on the mainland in this new Ideal Timeline. After that she would probably seek out Serge in El Nido, which may explain the white dress in another cutscene - she has regained memories both of the previous adventure and of her life as Schala.
My hypothesis that Time Bastard is not needed to explain Serge's memory of the journey further simplifies complications with the so-called "Ideal Timeline", which makes it especially attractive as a possibility. When the two dimensions are merged, presumably history restarts from the original point of the split, with the history of both dimensions going to the DBT in favor of a new timeline beginning. But, how does one account for all the instances of TB/TTI and time travel that occur in each separate timeline after the split? You run into many, many problems when trying to account for them. For example, if one character time travelled in one dimension, but his counter-part in the other did not - in the Ideal Timeline is the character Time Bastarded out, or not?
So I propose that in the Ideal Timeline, all instances of TB/TTI are preserved in the timeline before the split in 1010 A.D., but all instances of TB/TTI that occurred specific to each dimension are not preserved after the original time of the split in 1010 A.D.
This is the simplest explanation for the creation of an Ideal Timeline, because events would proceed as follows:
- All story-related events up until the split would be subject to TB/TTI, including Serge and Wazuki re-emerging from the Dead Sea.
- After the original time of the split in 1010 A.D., the Records of Fate would suddenly become inactive, because their transmissions are not preserved by TTI/TB. Events pertaining to the lives of normal people would presumably proceed similar to Home World.
- After 1010 A.D., Wazuki would presumably not turn into Lynx as a biological terminal for FATE because FATE no longer exists, or he might but would not be controlled by FATE. Lucca would not be abducted and the orphanage would not be burned.
- It was Lynx that manipulated the Porrean government and the Acacia Dragoons, not the Records of FATE. Without Lynx around, Porre would not invade El Nido and the Acacia Dragoons would still rule the islands.
- In 1020 A.D., Serge regains the memories of the adventure. The Kid/Schala that is probably on the mainland likely also remembers the adventure, and seeks Serge out in El Nido. Blah blah blah and they get married happily ever after.
Quite a concise theory that passes Occam's Razor if I do say so myself. It neatly account both for Serge's memories at the end of the story and for the existence of the Ideal Timeline, without having to account for Time Bastard events during the story of Chrono Cross at all. Discuss!
1143
Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Biplanes in 1000 A.D.?
« on: December 03, 2008, 07:57:07 pm »
Has anyone seen this? I apologize if this is some well known thing, but I was cruising Youtube and came across it so I thought I'd share. Around 1:11 the Epoch is seen flying over a part of Guardia where Guardia Castle is in the real game (although it's just a house or manor here), and three biplanes cross it's path. Interesting to say the least. :
"Early Chrono Trigger Footage"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyo_AXQLIdI
Man...what a different game it would have been.
"Early Chrono Trigger Footage"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyo_AXQLIdI
Man...what a different game it would have been.
1144
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Time Crash Aims and Dimension Split
« on: December 03, 2008, 06:55:51 pm »Farfetched and out of line with the Time Crash, but that made me think of anti-annihilation energy somehow stopping the destruction or shunting of past timelines to the Darkness Beyond Time when history is changed. The crazy application is that perhaps this played a role in giving birth to Home World as a separate dimension, when Kid's time-change should have merely shunted Another World's 1010-1020 A.D. history to the DBT with no other effects. So, tenuously, perhaps the Time Crash's anti-annihilation energy was directed towards that point in time for some reason (ah, we're in left field here), or, the Frozen Flame (which seems to be a source or conduit of this energy) was used in 1010 A.D. to create Home World from Kid's change, perhaps activated deep within FATE as part of Project Kid.
To justify that anti-annihilation energy reverses that timeline-shunting effect, well, perhaps the Counter-Time Experiment needed that so Chronopolis wouldn't accidentally overwrite history in the past and negate itself out of existence. Although really, creating a new dimension isn't exactly "controlling time", since they'd be separated from their achievements.
Bah, that's all too speculative.
Actually, I always assumed that the anomalous nature of the dimensional split was a direct cause of Chronopolis' counter-time experiment. Belthesar planned everything from the start, after all. So, it's not too far fetched at all in my opinion.
As far as "controlling time", I always thought that what they intended to do (although this is not supported from the story script), is to create a pocket dimension around Chronopolis using Lavos' energy, in the same way that Lavos creates a pocket dimension around itself. In this way, Chronopolis would be removed from the space-time continuum and have full access to ALL time periods, thus "control over time". However, something went wrong and instead the boundary around Chronopolis was connected to 12,000 B.C., rather than being disconnected from every point in the space-time continuum.
I always also assumed that "anti-annihilation" energy was just a pseudo-sciency way of referring to anti-matter, because wasn't it stated elsewhere in the plot that the Neo Epoch ran on positrons or something of that nature?
1145
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Name plot holes for Chrono games.
« on: December 03, 2008, 06:34:12 pm »
Which is one of the possible solutions that I outlined. However, the fact remains that both worlds are supposed to share the same timeline up until the point of the actual split (otherwise, some facts such as the Sea of Eden only transforming into the Dead Sea at the moment of the split would not be accounted for). So, Kid should still appear in both timelines. I still hold that because of the anomalous nature of the dimensional split, she could have only appeared in Home World's timeline for some reason. But neither that, nor the theory that the split occurred at the moment Kid travelled back in time and not when Serge was saved, is supported by evidence from the story.
So, I still hold that this is a legitimate plot-hole, although not as straightforward as the first one I listed.
So, I still hold that this is a legitimate plot-hole, although not as straightforward as the first one I listed.
1146
History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: Was there ever a timeline that Lavos never appeared on Earth?
« on: December 02, 2008, 11:34:20 pm »
I always assumed that the Reptite timeline was a timeline in which Lavos never fell, and I could have sworn that I remembered hearing exactly that in Chrono Cross, but when I checked the script:
It does not explicitly say that Lavos never fell in the Reptite timeline. But I think it definitely heavily implies that. In CT, the humans were on the verge of becoming extinct because the Reptites were superior. This quote shows that the Reptites were indeed wiped out because of Lavos' fall, which is important. Obviously the Reptites would have won out if Lavos never came, which is what is implied in the game, even though it's not directly stated.
Here's an interesting plot-twist: Lavos presumably originated from another planet, where it was the spawn of a previous Lavos that had fallen to that planet, manipulated that planet's history and evolution, and then trashed it and reproduced. Now, suppose some time travellers from that planet succeeded in defeating Lavos in that dimension? Then the Lavos we all know and love would never have fallen to earth and the Reptites would have defeated the humans. This would be a possible scenario for the Reptite dimension.
Quote
But the fall of Lavos to the
planet, and the resulting
Ice Age this brought about,
rang the death knell for the
Reptites and their civilization.
After that the Reptites
slowly disappeared from
the stage of history.
However, in the distant past
humans could have been defeated
in the contest of evolution,
and the Reptites could have
continued to develop...
It is not unthinkable that
such a time line could exist
in other dimensions.
It does not explicitly say that Lavos never fell in the Reptite timeline. But I think it definitely heavily implies that. In CT, the humans were on the verge of becoming extinct because the Reptites were superior. This quote shows that the Reptites were indeed wiped out because of Lavos' fall, which is important. Obviously the Reptites would have won out if Lavos never came, which is what is implied in the game, even though it's not directly stated.
Here's an interesting plot-twist: Lavos presumably originated from another planet, where it was the spawn of a previous Lavos that had fallen to that planet, manipulated that planet's history and evolution, and then trashed it and reproduced. Now, suppose some time travellers from that planet succeeded in defeating Lavos in that dimension? Then the Lavos we all know and love would never have fallen to earth and the Reptites would have defeated the humans. This would be a possible scenario for the Reptite dimension.
1147
Chrono Trigger DS Analysis / Re: Chrono Trigger DS Analysis HQ (Spoiler Spoiler, of course)
« on: December 02, 2008, 11:13:14 pm »I think it's worth noting that these three characters also appear as ghostly "clones" at Oppasa Beach later on.
I hate to contribute to getting the thread off topic from CTDS, but I'd like to add (if I remember correctly) that at Opassa Beach was the only time that they did not appear "ghostly" (as in see-through). They appeared solid and acted mature, while at all other times they acted childish and were apparition-like.
1148
Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Zeal is based off of Austrailia?
« on: December 02, 2008, 11:04:49 pm »I remember coming up with a theory like this once, but when I did it, it was a joke.
I thought this entire thread was a joke until just a moment ago. Zeal = Australia? Seriously. As stated, obviously the inspiration for it came from the legend of Atlantis.
But I'll entertain the possibility for a moment, and I thought I would add this important point to disprove this Zeal = Australia theory rather than just talking crap about it:
When you go back to Lucca's orphanage in CC to save Kid, she doesn't talk with an Australian accent. Therefore, I was always under the impression that Kid gained the accent after the orphanage incident, when she was presumably forced to fend for herself, generally thieving it up around Zenan and dreaming radically and whatnot.
1149
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Name plot holes for Chrono games.
« on: December 02, 2008, 10:48:52 pm »
I didn't read through the entire thread, so I apologize in advance if I am reposting something someone else has said, but:
The only real, legitimate plot-holes that I found in Chrono Cross were the following. An explanation can be rationalized for everything else that I thought at first might be a plot hole, except for these. Follow my logic here:
1) Possible Plot Hole Numero Uno: Belthesar must have already known about the existence of Kid when he created and planned out Project Kid (obviously), but it is stated in the script that Schala did not send Kid into 1005 A.D. until after she tried to make contact with Serge. But Serge did not even exist in the timeline until after Belthesar created Project Kid and Chronopolis was connected to the past.
Possible solutions: Perhaps Belthesar knew of Schala's future intentions to try to clone herself as Kid (though how would he know her name?), or perhaps Schala cloned herself first before saving Serge and this is a script error. The latter seems more likely, but I do not know if this is a script error or not (sorry if it is).
2) Possible Plot Hole Numero Dos: This one takes a bit more paying close attention to spot. In Chrono Cross, there is an intermediate timeline that exists before the dimensions are split in 1010 A.D. (obviously), in which Serge dies and Kid time travels to the past to save him from dying. It is stated that the dimensions are split because Kid travels back in time to save Serge from drowning (and for some reason, this is a special case which causes the dimensions to split rather than the future being sent to the DBT).
- Now, the history of the original timeline after 1010 A.D. is sent to the DBT, and both Home and Another World's timelines essentially start over at 1010 A.D., so that there can be differences between the timelines. In Another World's timeline, Kid never appears to save Serge. In Home Worlds timeline, she does and Serge lives. However, it is implied both in the story and by the mechanics of time travel in the series that both Home World and Another World share the same past timeline before the time of the dimensional split in 1010 A.D.
- So, if both Home and Another World share the same history before the dimensional split, this causes some problems depending on the exact time of the dimensional split. If the dimensions were divided at the moment Serge was saved by Kid, then wouldn't Kid appear in both timelines to save Serge? But she doesn't in Another World. If the dimensions were split the moment Kid time travelled to the past, a similar conundrum arises. Moreover, the story script suggests that the dimensions were split when Serge was saved by Kid.
So, in a nutshell: Because Serge was saved from drowning by Kid, and because the dimensions were split at that moment according to the story, and because the timelines presumably share the same past history before the split, then there is no reason why Serge would be dead in one timeline but not the other.
Possible solution: If the dimensions were split the moment Kid entered the past or directly before she did for some reason, then she may only appear in Home World's timeline. This would of course directly contradict what the story script says though.
The only real, legitimate plot-holes that I found in Chrono Cross were the following. An explanation can be rationalized for everything else that I thought at first might be a plot hole, except for these. Follow my logic here:
1) Possible Plot Hole Numero Uno: Belthesar must have already known about the existence of Kid when he created and planned out Project Kid (obviously), but it is stated in the script that Schala did not send Kid into 1005 A.D. until after she tried to make contact with Serge. But Serge did not even exist in the timeline until after Belthesar created Project Kid and Chronopolis was connected to the past.
Possible solutions: Perhaps Belthesar knew of Schala's future intentions to try to clone herself as Kid (though how would he know her name?), or perhaps Schala cloned herself first before saving Serge and this is a script error. The latter seems more likely, but I do not know if this is a script error or not (sorry if it is).
2) Possible Plot Hole Numero Dos: This one takes a bit more paying close attention to spot. In Chrono Cross, there is an intermediate timeline that exists before the dimensions are split in 1010 A.D. (obviously), in which Serge dies and Kid time travels to the past to save him from dying. It is stated that the dimensions are split because Kid travels back in time to save Serge from drowning (and for some reason, this is a special case which causes the dimensions to split rather than the future being sent to the DBT).
- Now, the history of the original timeline after 1010 A.D. is sent to the DBT, and both Home and Another World's timelines essentially start over at 1010 A.D., so that there can be differences between the timelines. In Another World's timeline, Kid never appears to save Serge. In Home Worlds timeline, she does and Serge lives. However, it is implied both in the story and by the mechanics of time travel in the series that both Home World and Another World share the same past timeline before the time of the dimensional split in 1010 A.D.
- So, if both Home and Another World share the same history before the dimensional split, this causes some problems depending on the exact time of the dimensional split. If the dimensions were divided at the moment Serge was saved by Kid, then wouldn't Kid appear in both timelines to save Serge? But she doesn't in Another World. If the dimensions were split the moment Kid time travelled to the past, a similar conundrum arises. Moreover, the story script suggests that the dimensions were split when Serge was saved by Kid.
So, in a nutshell: Because Serge was saved from drowning by Kid, and because the dimensions were split at that moment according to the story, and because the timelines presumably share the same past history before the split, then there is no reason why Serge would be dead in one timeline but not the other.
Possible solution: If the dimensions were split the moment Kid entered the past or directly before she did for some reason, then she may only appear in Home World's timeline. This would of course directly contradict what the story script says though.
1150
Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: A single Gate's ability to send multiple people to different times?
« on: December 02, 2008, 10:20:26 pm »
I've been cruising the Compendium for awhile now, but I never registered with the forums because I never really had anything important to say until now.
This is actually how I originally thought time travel in CT and CC worked after playing those games, before coming across the Compendium. I assumed that there were an infinite number of realities, and when a time traveler travels into the past, he is actually visiting a parallel reality which future he is changing, while if he travels into the future he is just visiting the future in his own reality. This would neatly account for many paradoxes of time travel, such as the grandfather paradox, since you couldn't go back in time to kill YOUR grandfather, you would be killing the grandfather of another you.
Nevermind the obvious glaring question of "OK, so why doesn't another you from another reality time travel into YOUR reality and kill YOUR grandfather before you have a chance to do the same?". In an infinite universe with infinite realities, you would expect this to happen and a paradox you would have once more.
Then I came across the Compendium and TTI, TB, and TE all make much more sense. The fact remains that in the Chronoverse, it is stated that time travel into the past sends that future to the Darkness Beyond Time. This directly states that time travellers are not traversing realities when they time travel, but visiting the past of their own timeline and rewriting history. End of story.
When the story of CT was written, I doubt they planned to include within the story deep philosophical time travelling concepts like TTI or TB. However, you cannot have a story about time travelling without similar concepts having to be true, otherwise the story would be riddled with paradoxes.
I second to your first half, but partly one the second. It is true that time is simply rewritten. But it isn't necessarily your original time that you're rewriting.
This is actually how I originally thought time travel in CT and CC worked after playing those games, before coming across the Compendium. I assumed that there were an infinite number of realities, and when a time traveler travels into the past, he is actually visiting a parallel reality which future he is changing, while if he travels into the future he is just visiting the future in his own reality. This would neatly account for many paradoxes of time travel, such as the grandfather paradox, since you couldn't go back in time to kill YOUR grandfather, you would be killing the grandfather of another you.
Nevermind the obvious glaring question of "OK, so why doesn't another you from another reality time travel into YOUR reality and kill YOUR grandfather before you have a chance to do the same?". In an infinite universe with infinite realities, you would expect this to happen and a paradox you would have once more.
Then I came across the Compendium and TTI, TB, and TE all make much more sense. The fact remains that in the Chronoverse, it is stated that time travel into the past sends that future to the Darkness Beyond Time. This directly states that time travellers are not traversing realities when they time travel, but visiting the past of their own timeline and rewriting history. End of story.
When the story of CT was written, I doubt they planned to include within the story deep philosophical time travelling concepts like TTI or TB. However, you cannot have a story about time travelling without similar concepts having to be true, otherwise the story would be riddled with paradoxes.