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31
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: 3D Crono Cross model extraction?
« on: October 22, 2007, 12:27:39 am »
I downloaded and compiled the dump program you found, I've modified it a bit for usability but I have a small problem, it relies on the disc image being exactly 736,651,104 bytes long, I can only get an image of my chrono cross to be 641,437,696 long.
If anyone has a cd image exactly that long, I'll tidy up the program so it's a bit simpler to use an put it up. It's currently not creating directories properly in windows and is hard coded to look for an iso image that is called Chrono1.iso in the sam directory as the program so i'll just fix these couple of things up and it should work fantasticly.
We still have the problem of understanding the formats even though the files will all be output and be readily available.
EDIT: oh I see it's already been done, never mind
If anyone has a cd image exactly that long, I'll tidy up the program so it's a bit simpler to use an put it up. It's currently not creating directories properly in windows and is hard coded to look for an iso image that is called Chrono1.iso in the sam directory as the program so i'll just fix these couple of things up and it should work fantasticly.
We still have the problem of understanding the formats even though the files will all be output and be readily available.
EDIT: oh I see it's already been done, never mind
32
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: 3D Crono Cross model extraction?
« on: October 19, 2007, 12:09:29 am »
It seems that he modified the source code of the emulator to dump all the models drawn from a given save state. It would be impossible to do with epsxe because it is/was a closed source project. I'd have a llok if anyone can find the source code to Adripsx and the plugin specified, the only thing I'm not sure about is the re-construction process. I'm pretty sure I'll be abl to find documentation somewhere.
Really want uni to be over so I can have a really good go at this. If you guys know of any other open source emulators that run chrono cross then maybe we could look for them.
Really want uni to be over so I can have a really good go at this. If you guys know of any other open source emulators that run chrono cross then maybe we could look for them.
33
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: Okay, Chrono Cross Textures
« on: October 18, 2007, 01:51:33 am »
Yeah I'm pretty sure that a save state from epsxe will contain the main ram aswell, but thats only because I can't think of a way to save the state of the emulation without the main ram.
So I'd say that it will definitly be within the save state, just a matter of finding at what offset it starts, it will be 2MB long I think I think I read somewhere. Like I said, there will be all sorts of cool things in there, just a matter of figuring out which parts are what.
I don't have one with me at the moment but if the save states are larger than 3MB then I'd say that they contain main ram as well. (1 MB VRAM + 2 MB RAM + sound RAM + other bits and bobs > 3.5 MB I'm guessing)
So I'd say that it will definitly be within the save state, just a matter of finding at what offset it starts, it will be 2MB long I think I think I read somewhere. Like I said, there will be all sorts of cool things in there, just a matter of figuring out which parts are what.
I don't have one with me at the moment but if the save states are larger than 3MB then I'd say that they contain main ram as well. (1 MB VRAM + 2 MB RAM + sound RAM + other bits and bobs > 3.5 MB I'm guessing)
34
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: Okay, Chrono Cross Textures
« on: October 18, 2007, 01:09:42 am »Quote
So, my conclusion is, it looks like the VRAM at any given time shows all the past data it's accumulated until overwritten. This is a pretty simple conclusion and sort of a "duh" moment, but it's good to know for sure. So if you just came from Earth Dragon Isle and go to Arni, some Earth Dragon Isle tiles might still show up in the cracks. Moving on, I just savestate'd a battle. Sure enough, better, more-detailed character model textures are showing up. Not much else of interest, since all the battle locations / rooms are already ripped as TIM textures. I've noticed that sometimes you can't find the correct CLUT (I'm just going to call them 'palettes') for the "junk" data that accumulates in the cracks, and that makes sense since the palettes loaded don't correspond to those past areas. I'm guessing I just got lucky with that table in Strangestuff.png, and it makes sense because I was unable to find the correct Termina palette for the other junk that showed up.
Yeah this is how memory is managed in many programming languages, as soon as the application no longer requires a chunk of memory it simply 'frees' it for use later. The free'ing process doesn't actually re-initialise the memory to zero, it just lets it be re-alloacted and overwritten when required.
Also, it's quite random just where the images you want are likely to show up. This is because when the game allocates memory for a texture it will just look for the first peice of sequential memory big enough to satisfy the allocation size in vram. It's possible that if the vram is exhausted, the texture could even be placed in the slower main system ram. If you take a save state and the image you want isn't in vram that is probably what happened.
If it's possible with your tools you guys should try looking in the 2MB of main ram that the psx has. If you are missing textures that are actually on screen in the save state but arn't in vram this is where they will be, along with other goodies like character/battle area/collision geometry and game code.
35
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: Okay, Chrono Cross Textures
« on: October 15, 2007, 10:26:28 am »
Sorry still wrong topic
I'll make sure this is my last post about modelling in the texture thread.
Even if we get exapmles of the model files, reverse engineering a model format would be very difficult, especialy if it is compressed and has a confusing animation format like ffvii models had. I think looking in system ram in an epsxe save state could be the way to go, I posted a bit more in depth about it in the model thread.
We'll hopefully get there eventually, I can't wait to finish uni this semester and have a really good look at this if it hasn't already been solved.
I'll make sure this is my last post about modelling in the texture thread.
Even if we get exapmles of the model files, reverse engineering a model format would be very difficult, especialy if it is compressed and has a confusing animation format like ffvii models had. I think looking in system ram in an epsxe save state could be the way to go, I posted a bit more in depth about it in the model thread.
We'll hopefully get there eventually, I can't wait to finish uni this semester and have a really good look at this if it hasn't already been solved.
36
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: 3D Crono Cross model extraction?
« on: October 15, 2007, 10:18:28 am »
Ah, unfortunately it'll be probably a fair bit more difficult than that to find vertex arrays in memory. The models will only be stored as a .TMD (provided that is indeed the format square used) on the disc, once loaded they will exist in memory as linear arrays of values (16 bit values if memory serves me correctly). I really have to get some time together to have a look with you.
Also, it is a bit unlikely that the geometry will exist in vram, generally it's used to store texture data. The vertex data is more likely to exist in the main memory of the psx. This just brought an interesting thought into my head, i'll start a new paragraph i think
Save states - a save state is actually a complete dump of the state of the emulated system. The state of the system would have to include the exact state of any memory that the system uses, with a discbased system like the sony all the data being used at a given time is loaded off of the disc and into memory. Basically this means that model data exists in save states taken when models are on screen, in one way or another. It would be in the section of the save state that stores the current state of the system's main memory.
If you can find any information about the epsxe save states post it, I had a quick look and found that ram starts at offset 1BA in an uncompressed epsxe save state. Now would be the difficult part, how do we know what data in ram is representing what?
I guess you could get a hex editor and have a look for a series of 16 bit numbers with very few zeros and little repetition. This 'could' be a sign of meaningful vertex data. Then you would either have to copy the sequence and feed it to through a script in blender or write a simple program to load a series of arrays from a simple file and attempt to draw them as a vertex array.
The trouble is I have no idea how the psx gu takes it's texture co-ordinates, normal, spacial co-ordinates ect. I'll make some time on the weekend and have a look. This could make figuring out the order of the vertex array very hard (provided we can identify one).
Also one good thing about this is, we would be likely to find the model's key-frames, meaning we could re-create the animation.
Maybe someone knows a bit more about the way the psx works and can give a hand with this idea. Still unsure if it would be correct though. I'm just hoping that the psx has very little ram otherwise this would be the worst job ever.
Wow, ended up being alot of writing.
Also, it is a bit unlikely that the geometry will exist in vram, generally it's used to store texture data. The vertex data is more likely to exist in the main memory of the psx. This just brought an interesting thought into my head, i'll start a new paragraph i think
Save states - a save state is actually a complete dump of the state of the emulated system. The state of the system would have to include the exact state of any memory that the system uses, with a discbased system like the sony all the data being used at a given time is loaded off of the disc and into memory. Basically this means that model data exists in save states taken when models are on screen, in one way or another. It would be in the section of the save state that stores the current state of the system's main memory.
If you can find any information about the epsxe save states post it, I had a quick look and found that ram starts at offset 1BA in an uncompressed epsxe save state. Now would be the difficult part, how do we know what data in ram is representing what?
I guess you could get a hex editor and have a look for a series of 16 bit numbers with very few zeros and little repetition. This 'could' be a sign of meaningful vertex data. Then you would either have to copy the sequence and feed it to through a script in blender or write a simple program to load a series of arrays from a simple file and attempt to draw them as a vertex array.
The trouble is I have no idea how the psx gu takes it's texture co-ordinates, normal, spacial co-ordinates ect. I'll make some time on the weekend and have a look. This could make figuring out the order of the vertex array very hard (provided we can identify one).
Also one good thing about this is, we would be likely to find the model's key-frames, meaning we could re-create the animation.
Maybe someone knows a bit more about the way the psx works and can give a hand with this idea. Still unsure if it would be correct though. I'm just hoping that the psx has very little ram otherwise this would be the worst job ever.
Wow, ended up being alot of writing.
37
Magic, Elements, and Technology / Re: The technological rise of Porre
« on: October 14, 2007, 10:50:43 pm »
I'd just like to say that it's great the way this idea has been developed, I missed most of it but I'll comment properly later on.
38
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: Okay, Chrono Cross Textures
« on: October 14, 2007, 10:45:19 pm »
Maybe it's worth you guys looking for vertex arrays in vram/system ram of the emulator, you may just find model geometry. Just a thought, if theres tools to do it, the models will definitely be in the emulators ram somewhere, we just don't know what format.
Wrong thread I know but I could be worth a go.
Wrong thread I know but I could be worth a go.
39
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: 3D Crono Cross model extraction?
« on: October 14, 2007, 09:36:17 pm »
I haven't got around to it actually, I'll try tonight, If I fail I may come crawling back for an email
I'll track down this other emulator and have a look.
I'll track down this other emulator and have a look.
40
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: Chrono Cross .BIK files -- any experience with these?
« on: October 14, 2007, 09:29:26 pm »
Yeah it's a bit unfortunate but it's more likley that they are a wrapper file that square has used to bunch files (doesn't look compressed though) together. A 'false positive' is the probable explanantion, just bad luck the the data in the headers looks the same.
EDIT: Still it's likely that these files contain most of the resources we are looking for. I'll start having a look at them at some stage this week (about to start exams at uni), it's tough when we don't know what were looking for but I guess it'll have to start some where. Who knows, we could get exceptionally lucky and stumble across other file types.
EDIT: Still it's likely that these files contain most of the resources we are looking for. I'll start having a look at them at some stage this week (about to start exams at uni), it's tough when we don't know what were looking for but I guess it'll have to start some where. Who knows, we could get exceptionally lucky and stumble across other file types.
41
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: 3D Crono Cross model extraction?
« on: October 14, 2007, 09:08:49 pm »
Wow, you guys have done alot while I've been away. I'm not confident .TMD would actually be used by Square for the actual games model format. TMD was a format that Sony used in tech demos and I think also early games (like Ridge Racer). So it's quite likely that most playstation games contain the Sony logo in .TMD format somewhere on the disc not compressed.
Also if Square was likely to ever use TMD then it would make sense to use it in early games like FFVII which it didn't (FFVII used a format called .lzs with a really funky animation system i've heard.)
Like luminaire said, it's likely that the program you used looked for a 'magic number' in the file headers to identify a TMD file If that number occours at the right place then the program tries to read the file as a TMD, producing gibberish if it is in fact not the correct format.
I am interested that you managed to use dx-ripper with a playstation emulator, are you making sure that the character whose geometry you want to capture is on screen at the time of capture? Sorry if this point has already been asked, I've only skimmed through the thread to catch up
On the note about changing the graphics plugin for epsxe, unfortunatly it wont make a difference as the plugin only takes care of drawing these pre-projected polygons to the view plane. All the projection is handled by the emulation of the graphics chip which is actually handled internally by epsxe. It makes sense to do it this way for compatibility I guess, I wonder if any psx emulators actually do all the projection work in directX/opengl.
On Zeality's point, it is possible because the character models would have to be interacting with some type of invisible 3d geometry on top of the background. I cant't think of another way to do it. They probably have a "bounding structure" that the character can't walk off, so any 'walkable' area would be a part of this geometry.
In the end I believe that square probably used a proprietry format (maybe an evolution of .lzs), without a bit more information I think I'd be at a loss to figure out exactly how a model format works without any documentation. It is possible but would rely on finding a file that we believe is a model then starting to experiment with it.
Another possiblity, and this is just a reproducing something I read a couple of years ago, is that the models are stored simply in psx graphics assembly, ready to be sent straight to the chip. I think quite a few software house started doing this with the psx, maybe square aswell. I'm not sure exactly how this would be formatted and everything but I just thought that it was interesting.
Also if Square was likely to ever use TMD then it would make sense to use it in early games like FFVII which it didn't (FFVII used a format called .lzs with a really funky animation system i've heard.)
Like luminaire said, it's likely that the program you used looked for a 'magic number' in the file headers to identify a TMD file If that number occours at the right place then the program tries to read the file as a TMD, producing gibberish if it is in fact not the correct format.
I am interested that you managed to use dx-ripper with a playstation emulator, are you making sure that the character whose geometry you want to capture is on screen at the time of capture? Sorry if this point has already been asked, I've only skimmed through the thread to catch up
On the note about changing the graphics plugin for epsxe, unfortunatly it wont make a difference as the plugin only takes care of drawing these pre-projected polygons to the view plane. All the projection is handled by the emulation of the graphics chip which is actually handled internally by epsxe. It makes sense to do it this way for compatibility I guess, I wonder if any psx emulators actually do all the projection work in directX/opengl.
On Zeality's point, it is possible because the character models would have to be interacting with some type of invisible 3d geometry on top of the background. I cant't think of another way to do it. They probably have a "bounding structure" that the character can't walk off, so any 'walkable' area would be a part of this geometry.
In the end I believe that square probably used a proprietry format (maybe an evolution of .lzs), without a bit more information I think I'd be at a loss to figure out exactly how a model format works without any documentation. It is possible but would rely on finding a file that we believe is a model then starting to experiment with it.
Another possiblity, and this is just a reproducing something I read a couple of years ago, is that the models are stored simply in psx graphics assembly, ready to be sent straight to the chip. I think quite a few software house started doing this with the psx, maybe square aswell. I'm not sure exactly how this would be formatted and everything but I just thought that it was interesting.
42
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: Okay, Chrono Cross Textures
« on: October 11, 2007, 09:48:35 pm »
Thats fine
Yeah, sorry if I sounded pushy, I'll try and rip them later on. Thanks again for this great find.
Yeah, sorry if I sounded pushy, I'll try and rip them later on. Thanks again for this great find.
43
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: 3D Crono Cross model extraction?
« on: October 11, 2007, 09:32:19 pm »
I don't think we'll ever be able to rip them from epsxe, it's impossible to get any depth data for the model 
Disappointing. I'm not going to continue trying.
Also directly ripping from the disk poses a couple of problems, first up we don't know what format the models are actually stored in. If it's the format same as final fantasy vii then I guess we could work something out.......if we could get to them. This is the second problem, after the first generation or so, developers started compressing and bunching together files on the disc for two reasons. To protect their resources from those who would rip them and also to save space on the disc, as the psx became older the developers continued to improve their methods.
I would have a go at writing a program to attempt this but I simply don't know enough about it. I've just started reading and I can see why no one else has yet attempted to extract this sort of thing from square's games (with the exception of ffvii).
I think the best way would be to take reference shots and attempt to model over the top of the images (very time consuming and probably not perfectly accurate). If you could get enough interested modelers I guess it wouldn't be so bad, but this in itself would be a problem.
Also animation would have to be done by hand, but I guess this would be the case if we used the glcapture/epsxe way as well.
It doesn't look too bright at the moment, it's just so frustrating because they're right there on that disc and we just can't get 'em.
Disappointing. I'm not going to continue trying.Also directly ripping from the disk poses a couple of problems, first up we don't know what format the models are actually stored in. If it's the format same as final fantasy vii then I guess we could work something out.......if we could get to them. This is the second problem, after the first generation or so, developers started compressing and bunching together files on the disc for two reasons. To protect their resources from those who would rip them and also to save space on the disc, as the psx became older the developers continued to improve their methods.
I would have a go at writing a program to attempt this but I simply don't know enough about it. I've just started reading and I can see why no one else has yet attempted to extract this sort of thing from square's games (with the exception of ffvii).
I think the best way would be to take reference shots and attempt to model over the top of the images (very time consuming and probably not perfectly accurate). If you could get enough interested modelers I guess it wouldn't be so bad, but this in itself would be a problem.
Also animation would have to be done by hand, but I guess this would be the case if we used the glcapture/epsxe way as well.
It doesn't look too bright at the moment, it's just so frustrating because they're right there on that disc and we just can't get 'em.
44
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: Okay, Chrono Cross Textures
« on: October 11, 2007, 08:40:18 pm »
Yeah unfortunately most don't seem to work as I am using the computers at university (I only have dial up at home). The Uni restricts access to most file sharing sites so no go.
If you could e-mail it to brookebackman@yahoo.com.au it would be fantastic, if you can't for what ever reason I'll just try ripping my self.
Thanks either way mate, this is really great for the community.
If you could e-mail it to brookebackman@yahoo.com.au it would be fantastic, if you can't for what ever reason I'll just try ripping my self.
Thanks either way mate, this is really great for the community.
45
Chrono Cross Modification / Re: Okay, Chrono Cross Textures
« on: October 11, 2007, 03:10:07 am »
This is awesome, I can't wait to get my hands on a few of these textures
Fantastic work. I'll download as soon as I get a chance.
EDIT: Ahh, I can't seem to download, would it be ok if someone e-mailed this archive to me.
Fantastic work. I'll download as soon as I get a chance.
EDIT: Ahh, I can't seem to download, would it be ok if someone e-mailed this archive to me.