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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: What determines a rewrite or a split?
« on: September 06, 2011, 04:33:14 pm »
Mh, you may be on to something... I'd forgot to factor in that Lynx already exists in Radical Dreamers, meaning that in its past Schala supposedly already led Serge to the Frozen Flame.
So Belthasar would know for a fact about Schala's intervention and be able to exploit it.
Unfortunately, we're back to the start with Schala saving Serge. Why would his cries out of countless children throughout time and space reach her?
Going with the star crossed thing, it could be that Schala is able to see all those possibilities Lucca went on about.
But then shouldn't the Lavos part of the Time Devourer cpable of just as much? Wouldn't it stop her abnd Belthasar? Gah...
So Belthasar would know for a fact about Schala's intervention and be able to exploit it.
Unfortunately, we're back to the start with Schala saving Serge. Why would his cries out of countless children throughout time and space reach her?
Going with the star crossed thing, it could be that Schala is able to see all those possibilities Lucca went on about.
But then shouldn't the Lavos part of the Time Devourer cpable of just as much? Wouldn't it stop her abnd Belthasar? Gah...
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: What determines a rewrite or a split?
« on: September 06, 2011, 09:03:15 am »Radical Dreamers is unrelated (temporally) to Chrono Cross.How do we know that? All the game says on that recording is:
This seems to be an archive
from a different time than
our own.
Aside from the two worlds
we already know about,
other worlds and times
may also exist...
Leaving the possibility open that it could be either a different world or a different timeline.
It does seem like a legitimate theory that Schala created Kid as an escape attempt first, met Serge as per Radical Dreamers and then when time was rewritten and he was not to survive intervened to save him. I agree. But seeing as the event of a split appears to be a rare occurrance and cause severe instability, I would think it more likely that Radical Dreamers was a rewritten timeline (besides, if it wasn't why would it receive consirable less attention in Chronopolis? ...though it could be explained if there was no Chronopolis in that one)
As for how the dimensions actually split... No idea. Maybe a faulty Time Egg or something. Alfadorredux seems to have a good answer. But we know it either happened during the Time Crash, at 1006 AG, or 1010 AG.A faulty one or one that was designed precisely to do that.
The game is admittedly confusing about when the split occurred, but we know it was not when the other Serge was killed, that's when the Dead Sea formed and the surviving Chronopolis was unable to access the other world directly. Once that is ruled out, everything in the game indicates that it was when Serge was taken to the Frozen Flame.
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: What determines a rewrite or a split?
« on: September 05, 2011, 11:33:39 pm »
So what you are suggesting is that already in the timeline the existed between the death of Lavos and the one we have in Chrono Cross, Schala may have saved Serge and created a duplicate to be with him?
And that knowing this, Belthasar intervened (changing the past before the event of the storm, forcing Schala to act again) to make it so that Schala's action caused a split instead of a rewrite?
And that knowing this, Belthasar intervened (changing the past before the event of the storm, forcing Schala to act again) to make it so that Schala's action caused a split instead of a rewrite?
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: What determines a rewrite or a split?
« on: September 05, 2011, 10:52:42 pm »The split was All Belthasar's Fault--or at least, the simplest explanation is that he did something to prevent a normal overwrite from taking place, because he needed the split universe to produce the Chrono Cross.Ah, that's a good answer... and yet another reason for me to feel that this game could greatly benefit from a rewrite.
Honestly I hadn't thought of that. my best guess was that it could be because Schala was already one with the Time Devourer and this somehow made her interference different.
Still, you have to wonder how Belthasar may have pulled that one off.
As for Why Serge... Well, if it hadn't been him, we would just have had a slightly different game that involved following Fred from Choras around.Uh... I was hoping for something more poignant. But then, again, my best guess would be that Schala and Serge are starcrossed and she could feel that..?
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / What determines a rewrite or a split?
« on: September 05, 2011, 08:27:41 pm »
Thanks to both this site and board, I think I now understand most of the temporal mechanics in the games... there's only one thing that still bugs me.
Why is it that whenever Crono and the others changed the future, the timeline was (supposedly) just written over/altered (with the old one dumped in the DBT), while when Schala intervened to save Serge the timeline split into two ongoing parallel worlds?
What makes that particular alteration to the timeline different and causes this? Was an explanation for that ever found?
It's not even that he was saved differently in one of the two worlds (like say, they managed to get to Marbule and cure him), because we know Lynx existed in both worlds, so in both worlds they ran into Shcala's storm and reached the Frozen Flame.
So technicly, it's not that one of the two worlds continued as it should have, neither of the two is the original Schala-intervention-free timeline.
And on that same note, why did her later intervention (through future!Kid?) to again save him (in only one of those worlds) not cause another split but instead make the relative Chronopolis implode into becoming the dead sea? (I know why the future destruction in 1999 is restored, but why does it show up there like that along with stuff from a peaceful 2400? Did the Time Devourer hurl?)
It looks like anytime Schala does anything somewhat resembling Crono's ordinary activities the timeline has a seizure.
And while I'm at that... why would Schala care to help Serge out of all children that happened to fall ill and die throughout the time continuum?
These questions really bug me...
Why is it that whenever Crono and the others changed the future, the timeline was (supposedly) just written over/altered (with the old one dumped in the DBT), while when Schala intervened to save Serge the timeline split into two ongoing parallel worlds?
What makes that particular alteration to the timeline different and causes this? Was an explanation for that ever found?
It's not even that he was saved differently in one of the two worlds (like say, they managed to get to Marbule and cure him), because we know Lynx existed in both worlds, so in both worlds they ran into Shcala's storm and reached the Frozen Flame.
So technicly, it's not that one of the two worlds continued as it should have, neither of the two is the original Schala-intervention-free timeline.
And on that same note, why did her later intervention (through future!Kid?) to again save him (in only one of those worlds) not cause another split but instead make the relative Chronopolis implode into becoming the dead sea? (I know why the future destruction in 1999 is restored, but why does it show up there like that along with stuff from a peaceful 2400? Did the Time Devourer hurl?)
It looks like anytime Schala does anything somewhat resembling Crono's ordinary activities the timeline has a seizure.
And while I'm at that... why would Schala care to help Serge out of all children that happened to fall ill and die throughout the time continuum?
These questions really bug me...
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Multiple Time Traveler Immunities?
« on: September 04, 2011, 04:14:55 pm »If they don't travel at C, then yes, after arriving in A, whatever they do would depend on how's the time line, as they're their current versions. And as such, until they time travel again, they would not gain a set memory of events as it would be ever changing thanks to other time travelers.Ah, so Time Traveler Immunity only applies to events that occured to a time traveler before their last time travel and not also after that? I see, I didn't realize that (I thought it applied to their person at all time and in any facet, hence my initial confusion as to how a time traveler could become a time bastard).
Now it makes sense.
For the Fiona question, it depends. For such situation it would need Robo to not have been in the party when they visit her and fight that boss. That way there is a Robo entering 600 AD knowing about helping regrow the forest.Wait, what I meant was that the change which causes Fiona to not exist could occur after the heroes killed the boss and left Robo behind and after the go pick him up in the future.
What would happen then?
Would Robo and the heroes that went to talk to Fiona becaome time bastards and find themselves not knowing this and whatever may have cause Fiona to disappear?
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Multiple Time Traveler Immunities?
« on: September 04, 2011, 11:34:53 am »
Mh, and how would time traveler immunity come into play if they had not traveled again at point C?
Would they not become time bastards but still have their actions rewritten by the changes that occur at E?
I guess this goes back to the "but what if Fiona was removed from history question", what would happen to the Robo that was left in 600 AD and is still protected by time traveler immunity?
...this should, hopefully, be the last clarification I need on the subject
Would they not become time bastards but still have their actions rewritten by the changes that occur at E?
I guess this goes back to the "but what if Fiona was removed from history question", what would happen to the Robo that was left in 600 AD and is still protected by time traveler immunity?
...this should, hopefully, be the last clarification I need on the subject
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Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: Kinda silly CC characters question.
« on: September 03, 2011, 06:47:27 pm »
But don't you recruit Orcha and Sneff by going to see them after their mandatory part in the story is over? That's the way I remember it. I very nearly certain that was the case with Sneff.
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Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: Kinda silly CC characters question.
« on: September 03, 2011, 04:34:34 pm »
Well, would you look at that... I thought I might end up being called a noob for not knowing this, but it turns out I stumbled onto a very obscure bit of trivia here with my question.
But my memory's rather fuzzy so...
It would be kind of nice to get a list of absolutely necessary (meaning the game won't go on without them) characters. Include characters that the game won't let you refuseYes, that's exactly what I'd like to know.
Macha/Korcha (for one boat)Oh, you have to let those join? I thought you could turn down their requests (with Macha/Korcha only acting as ferry then, or letting you borrow the boat)
...
and Steena (for the Chrono Cross)
I think Fargo, Grobyc, Harle, Karsh, Leah, Marcy, Orcha, Radius, Riddel, Sneff, Viper, and ZOAH also auto-join (I can't absolutely guarantee that none of them can be refused, though).I think Grobyc and Riddel can be refused, maybe Radius and Leah too. I'm pretty sure you can miss Orcha and Sneff entirely.
But my memory's rather fuzzy so...
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Multiple Time Traveler Immunities?
« on: September 03, 2011, 04:23:22 pm »
I guess what I meant to ask there is how we determine "current versions".
In the example above the flow of events would be:
A ) Group travels through time together
B ) Group does not meet one of their future selves
C ) Group time travels some more
D ) A member of the group continue to travel alone
E ) The solo time traveler changes the past (sometime between A and B ), altering the previous time travels of the group
F ) The solo time traveler meets his past self and the other time travelers at point B, then they each go their separate ways
But yeah, I think I'm getting the hang of it.
The entire group become time bastards when the solo time traveler changes the past at point E, and regardless of where/when they time travel they will disappear when the time of point C comes, right?
Thanks, this has cleared things up ^_^
In the example above the flow of events would be:
A ) Group travels through time together
B ) Group does not meet one of their future selves
C ) Group time travels some more
D ) A member of the group continue to travel alone
E ) The solo time traveler changes the past (sometime between A and B ), altering the previous time travels of the group
F ) The solo time traveler meets his past self and the other time travelers at point B, then they each go their separate ways
But yeah, I think I'm getting the hang of it.
The entire group become time bastards when the solo time traveler changes the past at point E, and regardless of where/when they time travel they will disappear when the time of point C comes, right?
Thanks, this has cleared things up ^_^
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Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Kinda silly CC characters question.
« on: September 03, 2011, 10:39:33 am »
As many other RPG players, I'm a packrat. I always try my darnedest to get everything I can in RPG games.
This extends also to characters and when playing CC I regularly strived to get as many as possible.
But now I've been wondering... what characters are absolutely necessary to get, even temporarily, in your party in order to play all the way to the Dragon God?
I don't believe any minimalist guide to this game exists, so I'm going to go and guess, but I think it's actually very few.
Serge for obvious reasons.
Kid, I'm assuming you can't proceed without her.
Guile or Nikki or Pierre. You must have one of these to get into Viper Manor, right?
Lynx again for obvious reasons.
Harle joins automatically, right? (Does Sprigg too?)
Norris? (Is he necessary to get in the Manor ruins?)
Karsh, Zoah, Marcy and Viper might join automatically after Chronopolis?
Starky you need to get to Terra Tower.
And I think that's it? Are there any others that necessarily join you on your way to fighting the Dragon God?
Can you skip/refuse any of the above from joining your group without being stuck?
This extends also to characters and when playing CC I regularly strived to get as many as possible.
But now I've been wondering... what characters are absolutely necessary to get, even temporarily, in your party in order to play all the way to the Dragon God?
I don't believe any minimalist guide to this game exists, so I'm going to go and guess, but I think it's actually very few.
Serge for obvious reasons.
Kid, I'm assuming you can't proceed without her.
Guile or Nikki or Pierre. You must have one of these to get into Viper Manor, right?
Lynx again for obvious reasons.
Harle joins automatically, right? (Does Sprigg too?)
Norris? (Is he necessary to get in the Manor ruins?)
Karsh, Zoah, Marcy and Viper might join automatically after Chronopolis?
Starky you need to get to Terra Tower.
And I think that's it? Are there any others that necessarily join you on your way to fighting the Dragon God?
Can you skip/refuse any of the above from joining your group without being stuck?
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Multiple Time Traveler Immunities?
« on: September 03, 2011, 09:32:06 am »
Ah, but I mean... what if the entire group had time traveled with the solo time traveler before he went off on his own but both before and after the moment he returns to when he meets them?
In that case, they will all be whisked into black gates the moment when they were supposed to embark on their next time travel, right?
In that case, they will all be whisked into black gates the moment when they were supposed to embark on their next time travel, right?
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Multiple Time Traveler Immunities?
« on: September 02, 2011, 07:58:30 pm »
Mh, so essentially, TTI and TB are completely separate phenomenons that do not influence each other right?
In that case, if a solo time traveler was to meet his former (already) time traveling self, within a group of companions, is the whole lot made time bastards by the encounter, or by whatever altered the past to make the encounter occur? (Since from the point of view of the solo time traveler, the other travelers did not meet his future self)
...okay, I think I'm starting to figure it out, thanks ^_^
In that case, if a solo time traveler was to meet his former (already) time traveling self, within a group of companions, is the whole lot made time bastards by the encounter, or by whatever altered the past to make the encounter occur? (Since from the point of view of the solo time traveler, the other travelers did not meet his future self)
...okay, I think I'm starting to figure it out, thanks ^_^
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Time, Space, and Dimensions / Re: Multiple Time Traveler Immunities?
« on: September 02, 2011, 11:06:58 am »
Not really, I'm afraid I got lost in there ^^"
I seem to understand though that TTI does not protect from the effects of Time Bastard, is that right? (Meaning no matter how much the timeline is changed, the Robo that was left in 600 will always appear there when he did, but he'll still be whisked into a black gate when his time comes). Though I have to wonder what would happen if the timeline was to change in such a way that Fiona never existed (would Robo appear and not know what to do?)
But about my previous example, let's try to make this more comprehensible (to myself) by labeling the Robos and providing actual dates.
Let's say the Robo that is picked up by the group in 1000AD (after being left in 600 AD) is Robo A.
The Robo we then meet going back to 600AD would be Robo B.
Robo A and the group go to 12000 BC and are captured by Dalton (for the lulz). They can't get away with their lives, but are able to pass a message that eventually reaches Robo B in 600 AD.
Robo B is able to travel back to 12000 BC and save his friends. To put an extra spin on it, let's say however that in the escape Robo A falls into a gate leading to some other time where the heroes can't follow him (let's say 2400).
What would happen then to Robo A and B?
I seem to understand though that TTI does not protect from the effects of Time Bastard, is that right? (Meaning no matter how much the timeline is changed, the Robo that was left in 600 will always appear there when he did, but he'll still be whisked into a black gate when his time comes). Though I have to wonder what would happen if the timeline was to change in such a way that Fiona never existed (would Robo appear and not know what to do?)
But about my previous example, let's try to make this more comprehensible (to myself) by labeling the Robos and providing actual dates.
Let's say the Robo that is picked up by the group in 1000AD (after being left in 600 AD) is Robo A.
The Robo we then meet going back to 600AD would be Robo B.
Robo A and the group go to 12000 BC and are captured by Dalton (for the lulz). They can't get away with their lives, but are able to pass a message that eventually reaches Robo B in 600 AD.
Robo B is able to travel back to 12000 BC and save his friends. To put an extra spin on it, let's say however that in the escape Robo A falls into a gate leading to some other time where the heroes can't follow him (let's say 2400).
What would happen then to Robo A and B?
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History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: Chronopolis Contradictions
« on: September 02, 2011, 10:54:01 am »
Ah okay... I guess it wouldn't be too bad if they had died in Home but still lived (with Lucca's unfortunate exception) in Another. That was in Ideal they could, ideally, still be alive.
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