Poll

Who do you think is the strongest Guru?

Belthesar
10 (41.7%)
Gaspar
6 (25%)
Melchior
8 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: July 06, 2005, 05:59:59 am

Author Topic: The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?  (Read 6482 times)

Daniel Krispin

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #15 on: July 06, 2005, 03:44:39 pm »
Quote from: Zatopek
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I think that must be the most brought-up irony/quirk in the Chrono series. I've seen it mentioned no less than a dozen times.


Haha, yes, I know I just dredged up an often-repeated observation.

Your commentary on the gurus was an interesting read.  One nit-picky point, however.  You say it was Aristotle that put forward the idea of four elements.  Maybe he made the idea more popular and more widely accepted, but I thought that much earlier the poet Hesiod had put forward his cosmological picture with the earth covered by water and surrounded by air and fire.  Thales thought the one constant was Water, Anaximander went for the vague "Indefinate Boundless," Anaximenes proposed "Aer," and Heraclitus went with Fire (along with establishing the notion of the "Logos"), and then of course there were the Pythagoreans with "All is Number."  Maybe Aristotle was the first to speak of 4 elements, but I thought it happened earlier, during the Pre-Socratic period.

Oh well, lets veer back to the topic after I sent us careening into Ancient philosophy.


Hmmm... kudos to you for remembering all those names. The only one I would have been able to match with his idea was Anaximander with his boundless. I know the other names, but I forgot precisely which they thought. As for Aristotle, the reason I said it so was because that view of the universe was later considered the Aristotilian one, and held for almost two thousand years. Moreover, regarding Hesiod... I'm not certain he actually considered the entire universe founded upon the four elements as Aristotle did. Hesiod wrote in the time of Homer, and his view of the world would have been very much grounded in myth and religion. I never actually read through the Theogony, but I did skim the beginning such for a paper, and remember that he maintains that first of all came Chaos, or, rather, Chaos came into being first of all. From Chaos comes all the other later Titans, Olympians, and other such deities, from Gaia to Ouranos to Typheous, Erebos, Styx, etc. But whatver his world-view may have been, I do not think that he saw it in a scientific light, and as such, even if there were successive layers, would not have considered them to be the framework of the universe. It may be, however, that certain of the Natural Philosophers did indeed think up the Earth, Air, Fire, Water idea before Aristotle (if I remember rightly, he was far later than any of them), but, as I have said, it is Aristotle who is remembered for it.

Oh, and getting off topic and going on a tangent isn't bad, so long as one can find their way back. That's what my Classics professor always said last semester.

And back on topic... what I wrote about the famed Three has been my view for a long time, ever since writing my story. I speak of them in that manner in it, actually. They always seemed in some ways like philosophers, anyway.

Zatopek

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #16 on: July 06, 2005, 04:05:01 pm »
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They always seemed in some ways like philosophers, anyway.


Maybe this is why the Gurus have been among my favorite characters in the Chrono Universe.  I'd sometime like to sit down with Melchior and discuss the meaning of life

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it is Aristotle who is remembered for it


Yes, and you're probably right that Hesiod, being more of a poet, was probably speaking in more mythological or metaphorical terms.  The Milesians were trying to find what it is that is constant and does not change, so while they sometimes acknowledged 4 elements, they would debate over which was the "Supreme" element (for instance, Earth, Fire, and Water all being more "hardened" forms of Air).  Aristotle may have been the first to argue for the 4 elements, none more supreme than the other, from a more scientific standpoint.  Since he so heavily influenced important thinkers long after him, for instance Thomas Aquinas, I favor Aristotle as the most important philosopher in all of history, but that's just my opinion.

And I like thinking of Melchoir as a Platonist.  :)

Salvadeiro

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #17 on: July 06, 2005, 04:53:52 pm »
Melchior, just because.

Daniel Krispin

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #18 on: July 06, 2005, 06:27:53 pm »
Quote from: Zatopek
Quote
They always seemed in some ways like philosophers, anyway.


Maybe this is why the Gurus have been among my favorite characters in the Chrono Universe.  I'd sometime like to sit down with Melchior and discuss the meaning of life

Quote
it is Aristotle who is remembered for it


Yes, and you're probably right that Hesiod, being more of a poet, was probably speaking in more mythological or metaphorical terms.  The Milesians were trying to find what it is that is constant and does not change, so while they sometimes acknowledged 4 elements, they would debate over which was the "Supreme" element (for instance, Earth, Fire, and Water all being more "hardened" forms of Air).  Aristotle may have been the first to argue for the 4 elements, none more supreme than the other, from a more scientific standpoint.  Since he so heavily influenced important thinkers long after him, for instance Thomas Aquinas, I favor Aristotle as the most important philosopher in all of history, but that's just my opinion.

And I like thinking of Melchoir as a Platonist.  :)


Wow, you really know this stuff. I know some things here and there (ancient history is quite dear to me). Are you in philosophy or something?

As for Aristotle: if not the most important, he's certainly up there with the greatest, that's for certian. His thoughts influenced western philosophy for 2000 years.

And as for Melchior... so I'm NOT the only one that thinks so! Awesome!

Philosopher1701

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #19 on: July 07, 2005, 01:00:38 am »
Daniel Krispin:


Impressive.


Most impressive.  8)

Daniel Krispin

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2005, 04:52:03 am »
Awesome avatar Philosopher! I love it! The fabled Professor himself...

Zatopek

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #21 on: July 07, 2005, 11:18:19 am »
That Avatar gets an A+ in my book.

And yes, I'm currently studying philosophy in college.  I took a course in Ancient and Medieval Philosophy this past semester, so most of it is still fresh in my mind.

dick

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #22 on: July 07, 2005, 03:54:43 pm »
pff.. u can't have the guru's compete for being the strongest :/
they don't fight or use attack magic or anything :S
they're just a bunch of smart guys and they are all good at a different thing.

Chrono'99

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #23 on: July 07, 2005, 05:28:55 pm »
Quote from: Daniel Krispin
Awesome avatar Philosopher! I love it! The fabled Professor himself...

Mmmmmmh... who is this man? :roll:

DarkGizmo

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #24 on: July 07, 2005, 05:39:41 pm »
You don't know him! Where do you come from it is the fabled Writter of LOTR JRR Tolkien!

Oh by the way I looked at the link of the picture  :wink:
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http://www.bookreporter.com/art/authorphotos/140w/tolkien-jrr.jpg

Chrono'99

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #25 on: July 07, 2005, 06:18:17 pm »
Lol I never saw Tolkien's face before... I thought the avatar was John Campbell (or something)^^'

Philosopher1701

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #26 on: July 07, 2005, 07:00:16 pm »
Yes, it is the Professor himself.

Study his face very closely..........

What wisdom.........

Philosopher1701

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #27 on: July 07, 2005, 07:42:24 pm »
Did a Google search:












And as a tribute to Professor Tolkien, here is a painting of Valinor:


X ATM038x

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2005, 11:22:49 am »
After someone said something about Gaspar being the "guide" of CT, Belthasar of CC, and that Melchior would be for CB, I want to think about this some more...

Chrono Trigger - Gaspar - Time
Chrono Cross - Belthasar - Reason
Chrono Break/brake (I tend to "break") - Melchior (presumebly) - Life

Just think about it, Gaspar triggered the the series by helping Crono and everyone, Belthasar crossed time a lot to help Serge, Kid/Schala and more people, and then Melchior would break the series, probably by breaking the lavos timelines/lavos himself once and for always. I think I'm vague, but I don't understand it myself too, so you guys should discus it some more.

V_Translanka

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The Gurus: Who was the strongest (in all aspects)?
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2005, 11:26:27 am »
I don't think I'm sure as to what you mean. Since Lavos is defeated and the Devourer of Time erased forever from existence...Not only how, but why, would there be a reason to get rid of Lavos...again?