Author Topic: Social Trends and Stereotypes?  (Read 1165 times)

Kodokami

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Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« on: June 08, 2011, 06:30:04 pm »
I'm making this thread in response to a video I saw (and an argument over said video), but feel free to contribute your own observations on social trends, good or bad.

This is the video:
[youtube]2Fz3zFqLc3E&feature=topvideos_music[/youtube]

Ignoring the conclusion of the video, do you believe in the artists' statement that "nice guys finish last?" A female friend (and the one I had an argument with) gave the response that "most guys aren't dicks to compensate for their secret niceness.They're just dicks for fun." I, however, have been in position of those two guys in the video, and I empathize with their statement. So, has this become a stereotype in both males and females?

Shee

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #1 on: June 08, 2011, 10:44:56 pm »
I can only go from my own personal experiences, but it preeeeetty much sums it up.  Is it an absolute truth?  Of course not.  The girls I've met by and large "like" nice guys, but are rarely attracted to them.  Not that I would know anything about that.   8)  Still, this goes for women I've been interested in as well as everyday conversations with friends.  Kodokami it does not surprise me that your friend thinks that way.  I for one think she is wrong. 

Again, an absolute truth?  No.  But damn does this all sprout out of a truth.  Every time I'm rejected/told I'm nice, BUT.../see that current heart stopper of the times with another man/etc etc etc there's another little shred of "niceness" gone, and another shred of "dickness" replaces it.  It CAN be as simple as "You like A and you see that A likes B and you are C.  So you become more like B."  I don't think that's always the case but I do think that's the root of what's going on.

What bothers me is in the ending where these girls have either forgiven these guys or fallen for the real nice guy they are.  I don't see either of those happening in reality and it hurts the "message" of the song.

I don't think stereotype is the right word.  Probably because I don't think it's a stereotype, I think it's a truth.

Sajainta

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2011, 11:42:57 pm »
Most of the "nice guys" I know who bemoan the fact that they can't get girls are actually like this and there's little wonder why they "finish last".

FaustWolf

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2011, 12:06:42 am »
I found this Youtuber's exposee on the subject really insightful, not to mention downright hilarious:

[youtube]YUbtd2elAc8[/youtube]

Shee

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2011, 02:30:39 am »
TAKE ME TO PANDA TOWN!!   :lol:

Saj:  I can...absolutely positively agree with that article you posted.  I've been there.  Probably still there more than I'd like to admit (see:frustration thread).  That insecurity, jealousy, neediness they described...that was all the base of who I was/am, at least in the realm of dating.  And it wasn't until I stopped, looked, and thought about it I noticed how unattractive it was/is that any of it ever became clear.  Sheer idiocy, poor taste, idiocy, insecurity, idiocy, it's all there.  So I suppose that hurts my original post quite a bit then, doesn't it? 

Still a two way street.  Let's not pretend every time a woman/girl isn't interested it's simply because the guy is acting like a headless chicken/spineless human.  Sometimes the attraction just isn't there. 


FaustWolf

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2011, 03:32:27 am »
It's worth noting that women go through this too; for every woman I've been interested in and wasn't able to spark a connection, there's been a woman on the opposite side of the equation who felt the same way about me at one time or another. I can't speak for others' experiences, but I tend to believe such a two-way street is common. So take heart: it's not that people are necessarily rejected for undesirable defects; it's just that finding intimacy is an incredibly inefficient process no matter which way it's sliced.

Nor is this an evil. Being lonely might suck, but there is one thing that is far, far worse: being in a relationship that's malformed, and where both (or more, if that's your thing!) partners aren't giving it their full zest. By what definition are the so-called "alphas" necessarily having things better? (Not that I'm looking for an answer, but it's worth reflecting on for everyone who has these frustrations).

Self improvement is always a good thing, but it's also important not let all this "alpha" vs. "beta" talk stress us unduly. Our society just doesn't do a good job of helping people manage absence of intimacy -- both from the perspective of people who are experiencing difficulty finding it, and people who live perfectly comfortable lives without it but feel society scrutinizes them unduly for it. For one thing, other than Hercule Poirot (and perhaps Frasier Crane by some definitions), I can think of few role models in the media who go extended periods without a lover at his or her side. Maybe I'm having a huge brain fart here though.

Sajainta

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2011, 04:12:34 am »
Still a two way street.  Let's not pretend every time a woman/girl isn't interested it's simply because the guy is acting like a headless chicken/spineless human.  Sometimes the attraction just isn't there.

I understand that.  It's very true.  I really wish most "nice guys" were as honest and introspective as you, and able to see that it IS a two-way street.  Because most of the nice guys I know think that it's solely the womens' fault--and their fault alone--for not choosing them.

Kodokami

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2011, 10:45:11 am »
Because most of the nice guys I know think that it's solely the womens' fault--and their fault alone--for not choosing them.

That is simply not the case. As Shee so boldly said, and as I know of myself, it is just as much (or more) the guy's fault than it is the girl's because of that insecurity. The majority of the points made in that article you posted, Saj, I would also agree to be true. Yet, still, as we all seem to agree, it's a two-way street. There are truths to both the article and the "Nice Guys" video.

Our society just doesn't do a good job of helping people manage absence of intimacy -- both from the perspective of people who are experiencing difficulty finding it, and people who live perfectly comfortable lives without it but feel society scrutinizes them unduly for it.

Bringing it back to my topic title, it sounds like this is a social trend. However, trends come and go, and I can't say how long this idea of "nice guys" has been around. It's interesting to wonder then how long this belief will last.

It's also interesting to read the comments in those videos (especially FW's). Underneath the abhorrent trolling, there is as much agreement as there is disagreement.

tushantin

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #8 on: June 09, 2011, 05:05:39 pm »
Ya know in social science the Nice Guys vs Jerks, or Alphas vs Pups talk, has been quite frequent. And it would make sense, since it describes the society and relationship in general. See, forgetting the stereotypes, there is hardly a line between nice guys and jerks on who gets to pick a girl and who doesn't, but it's the stereotype itself that helps us categorize things (in a bad way). Nevertheless, here's my reasoning:

The concept of Alphas has been prevalent since before the humanity realized we could make stuff out of wood, in which case the Alphas are described as bold, fearless tribe kings who banged dozens of chicks at once (pardon my language). Anybody in their way are usually beaten to a pulp, or mostly in human discovery, tear away their sex organs to even challenge them. In turn, those who weren't as bold lived lives away from the wrath of the Alphas, trying to mate with underwhelmed females.

The stereotype Alphas in today's age could be those douchebags who love themselves more than anything. They may drink a lot, they go out where they feel like, drag a woman along and get laid with several ladies they've just met.  They mock you and remain on their dominant position, always challenging anyone trying to take their seat, and if worst comes to worst they put you in your place. They usually know where they need to be and what place gives them the most fun. If they don't like the place, they turn it upside down until it's fun for them. And they will constantly touch and flirt with women until they're satisfied.

Now here's the theory of Nice Guys: why are they called that? Based on the best qualities of a guy, anybody can be called nice unless he does questionable things. And (for the stereotypes) by questionable things, it's that they fear doing anything wrong. They fear mingling with bad company. They fear exploring. They prefer to play safe, and wouldn't touch a woman if it makes them uncomfortable (and I do mean just touch). Even love, to them, is mostly spiritual than sexual. Yes, they listen, yes they're serious and conscious, yes care. But their fear itself keeps things bland on their end.

Now here's a question: why would a girl prefer a douchebag over a nice person, even though logically she should pick the best? You see, our brain may be complex but it is our emotional part that makes major decisions no matter how much rational thinking you've gone into. And if something triggers vivid emotions towards one directions, not even cold reasoning will save you. It is particularly easy to trigger people's emotions based on either words or events, and experience things is the best thing. Another reason that most woman would rather pick an Alpha is because he is decisive, independent, fearless and always looking for fun. His dominance and pride gives a woman security, his fun factor is what makes things interesting. Many people say they prefer one thing over the other, but many people hardly know what they actually like. The Alpha usually triggers the sexual feelings within a woman, which in turn becomes preference (but how long it lasts, depends on what kind of a person this Alpha is).

But what about the Nice Guy? He broods, he clings, he whines. What make women want to run away as far as possible from these guys is because they act helpless and needy, and frankly boring.

Now stereotypes aside, it is possible to be a Nice Guy and still become popular. Be humble but be bold. Be attentive and be funny. Have an attitude, but still mingle. Make fun of her, but be there when she needs you. Explore, and give the chick a ride of her lifetime! Take control and show her the world; be the kinda guy who indirectly says, "Hey, I'm going out somewhere awesome, so you'll come along and LIKE it!" Because in the end women would only fall for the people they respect.

Sajainta

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #9 on: June 09, 2011, 07:12:33 pm »
I'm just gonna say that D is most definitely a "nice guy" in the sense that he is incredibly kind-hearted, patient, and gentle.  He's also super geeky.  I went through a "bad boy" phase once, but I outgrew it.  "Nice guys" are where it's at--but nice guys who are assertive and confident and with an inability to put up with bullshit as well as being respectful and sweet.  So nice guys don't always finish last.  A lot of girls I know are dating nice guys.

Also, the world is not divided into Asshole and Nice Guy.  People fail to realise that.  There's a whole ocean of people who fall into neither category.

D probably falls into that category, but in many ways he's a nice guy.  There is no asshole bone in his body.

The problem with the Nice Guy talk is that women tend to get lumped into one big group.  It's a bit insulting, really.  "Women like this.  Women don't like that."  We're not a collective whole.  Say "most women" or "from what I've observed, a lot of women", but lumping all women into one category pisses us off.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 07:18:07 pm by Sajainta »

tushantin

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #10 on: June 09, 2011, 08:17:56 pm »
Also, the world is not divided into Asshole and Nice Guy.  People fail to realise that.  There's a whole ocean of people who fall into neither category.
XD Which is why I specified "stereotype". The real world might have follow the science but is more diverse than what we imagine.

And I'm sorry if I came off sexist on my last post. I'm just not good with words I guess... For me, language is merely means for me to put ideas forward, but English is helluva confusing especially when inclusion or exclusion of words can change meanings to easily.

Syna

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #11 on: June 09, 2011, 11:13:13 pm »
Every guy who has ever claimed to me that he was a "Nice Guy" was a whiny, insecure, clingy, passive-aggressive jerk who stalked me and made me personally responsible for his myriad of social tumors, so um, I'm biased but yeah, I'd say there's likely a reason for the stigma! Meanwhile, I tend to date people who are actually nice, but are socially adept, and haven't spent years developing their insecurities into a massive victim complex.

Tush, I'm not saying there isn't something to what you're talking about, but it smacks of evolutionary psychology. DANGER WILL ROBINSON. Avoid that field like the plague; it tends to ignore the hard realities of social conditioning in favor of justifying some asinine point. It is, for the most part, absolute hogwash and bad science (and yes, bad science gets peer reviewed quite frequently). It does this

Quote from: Sajainta
The problem with the Nice Guy talk is that women tend to get lumped into one big group.  It's a bit insulting, really.  "Women like this.  Women don't like that."  We're not a collective whole.  Say "most women" or "from what I've observed, a lot of women", but lumping all women into one category pisses us off.

all the damn time.

I'd suggest taking up anthropology instead. :)
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 11:18:14 pm by Syna »

tushantin

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2011, 08:12:23 am »
Syna, I'm sorry, honest! See, what I was trying to imply there is that general women (okay, here I tried not to lump everyone together) wouldn't really want clingy, needy and helpless dudes like...

Every guy who has ever claimed to me that he was a "Nice Guy" was a whiny, insecure, clingy, passive-aggressive jerk who stalked me and made me personally responsible for his myriad of social tumors, so um, I'm biased but yeah, I'd say there's likely a reason for the stigma! Meanwhile, I tend to date people who are actually nice, but are socially adept, and haven't spent years developing their insecurities into a massive victim complex.

.... THESE as their mates, and it would make sense (if I were a woman I'd get the hell away from them too). Survival instincts retain at the core of our subconsciousness, and beyond that is a whole lot of complex situations. I ask you: if someone is boring as hell, would you consider them as a mate? If someone talks like you're at fault for appearing before them, thus causing them to develop anxiety, would you consider them as a mate? Someone who refrains from socializing, always refraining from respecting their friends' invitations and always acts too serious, would you consider them as a mate?

But even at the best of scenarios, the stereotype Nice Guy (notice the emphasis) are often there and usually often taken advantage of. A human being selfish, whether male or female, would usually feel, "okay this guy doesn't have a problem, so let him carry the bags", and there goes all his self-respect. Usually his tendency of bowing and breaking towards peer pressure (and all with a smile like he's worshiping someone) would in turn make people respect him less, or should I say, sends him in the back of the line. But if the Nice Guy develops even a bit of attitude, saying he doesn't like the way the Alphas treat him, having the courage to face his peers, there's a chance (hopefully) that someone around might help him out. It gives a boost in his social ranking and thus gains respect in exchange for survival.

Social popularity is defined by boldness (in most cases), whether it is boldness for facing death, boldness for exploring new trends or simply boldness for making new friends. The stereotypical Alphas have that trait, which makes them popular. Combine a nice guy with that boldness, with enough respect for himself and his friends/companion, and we have a decent guy!

Syna

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2011, 11:44:19 am »
Oh, it's fine, I see that you were attempting to discuss the stereotypes not in terms of absolutes, but as a way to describe certain social trends. I think I just question the validity of the whole Alpha Male/Nice Guy idea to begin with; I may be wrong on that, however. Let me see if I can explain.

Quote from: tushantin
I ask you: if someone is boring as hell, would you consider them as a mate? If someone talks like you're at fault for appearing before them, thus causing them to develop anxiety, would you consider them as a mate? Someone who refrains from socializing, always refraining from respecting their friends' invitations and always acts too serious, would you consider them as a mate?

Right, okay. I see that you're trying to reframe the discussion. I don't think either gender would consider such a person desirable unless they had overwhelming problems of their own.

I think the issue here is that the way you're talking about Alphas makes them out to be, well, interesting people with a modicum of self-possession. Alphas as I've heard them spoken of involve more than that; they are downright dominant. To be honest, the only males I know who I could unquestionably call Alphas are reviled by everybody. (Like, ahem, my boss.) I am perfectly willing to accept that my experience is atypical -- I even think that's the likely scenario-- but since this is such a cultural concern, I'd like to have a better grasp on what people mean when they talk about Alphas.

I'm interested in this partially because I see a lot of people automatically assuming interesting males are Alphas. For instance, in the period of infamy where I had a lot of trouble with these Nice Guy fellows, I began dating my boyfriend. They immediately accused me of liking Alphas/jerks because he can be socially extroverted, he's into punk rock, loves mosh pits, and, well, gets a lot of injuries (he's... adventurous, and sometimes a dumbass-- part of why I like him!). This despite the fact that he is ultimately an introverted touchy-feeling poet sort who cried when he looked at a statue of Cupid and Psyche with me and quotes John Keats and talks about his feeeeeeeeelings and so forth (not to mention he's 5'7" and 128 lbs-- Serge's stats, by the way, make for a ridiculously skinny and non-imposing guy).

So I'm inclined to say that what's going on here is actually that a class of male  feels disenfranchised and invalidated. They have invented this Alpha/Nice Guy narrative to explain their experiences. So I suggest we shift the discussion a little bit. I think the phenomenon of Alpha Males makes more sense to discuss in terms of male sociology. Have you felt, as a male, in predominantly male social situations, that the Alpha Male idea makes sense? Are there males who typically dominate whatever social situation they find themselves in? I suspect the answer is yes, but I'm curious as to what this person talks and acts like.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 12:01:54 pm by Syna »

tushantin

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Re: Social Trends and Stereotypes?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2011, 12:54:51 pm »
I don't think either gender would consider such a person desirable unless they had overwhelming problems of their own.
Exactly! And you're right, it is usually the behavioral stance that actually differentiates social positions, so in this case "Alphas" and "Nice Guys" could be either Male or Female. But there is one small difference between genders: general males (note the emphasis again) have a bad habit of going on looks before anything else, in which case a Nice Girl, so long as she is beautiful, in first appearance she is likely to be picked over the Alpha one. Well, that's my observation at least.

I think the issue here is that the way you're talking about Alphas makes them out to be, well, interesting people with a modicum of self-possession. Alphas as I've heard them spoken of involve more than that; they are downright dominant.
Yes, I mentioned that earlier.

To be honest, the only males I know who I could unquestionably call Alphas are reviled by everybody. (Like, ahem, my boss.)
XD I mentioned that too. Usually the stereotypical Alphas are reviled because of their lack of respect for people's feelings and social norms, but when they interact with groups they tend to cause a rift between other people's feelings and preferences, i.e., (note: this is just an example, don't throw a fit over it) even some decent women involved are usually torn between their emotions, or friends pondering whether they've made a right decision befriending them. He influences people with the Live Free but at the same time enrages them. Think about it: keeping a faked smile for an eternity might be tiresome, aye? Just a concept, consider it.

But when talking about "your boss" there's another thing in play. It is because certain dominant fellows who let themselves go and behave badly towards their underlings they're reviled for their misuse of authority, but the funny thing is that if we switched places we're likely to do the same (again, note the emphasis). Read the wiki. I'll explain if you've got questions.

For instance, in the period of infamy where I had a lot of trouble with these Nice Guy fellows, I began dating my boyfriend. They immediately accused me of liking Alphas/jerks because he can be socially extroverted, he's into punk rock, loves mosh pits, and, well, gets a lot of injuries (he's... adventurous, and sometimes a dumbass-- part of why I like him!). This despite the fact that he is ultimately an introverted touchy-feeling poet sort who cried when he looked at a statue of Cupid and Psyche with me and quotes John Keats and talks about his feeeeeeeeelings and so forth (not to mention he's 5'7" and 128 lbs-- Serge's stats, by the way, make for a ridiculously skinny and non-imposing guy).
Now here's the thing: likes and dislikes don't define an Alpha, but they usually do define about the characteristics of a nice guy. From what I understand, your boyfriend is both a baby and adventurous at the same time, which puts him into a Nice Guy category (but a little over there), though definitively not stereotypically. Despite his sentimentality he is bold to enjoy what he does and (from what I understand) mingle with you and his buddies, so there's really nothing wrong with that.  :P He's an interesting nice guy who isn't afraid to socialize.

Have you felt, as a male, in predominantly male social situations, that the Alpha Male idea makes sense? Are there males who typically dominate whatever social situation they find themselves in? I suspect the answer is yes, but I'm curious as to what this person talks and acts like.
Indeed, it does! But moving away from stereotypes, there are a lot of factors that can make a male or female an Alpha (in this case Males since you were interested) and there is a reason why they find themselves to be so popular in the first place. The key is not only dominance, but also feeling for the group and not just yourself, and in this case it doesn't have to be aggressive. In most modern social circles today, the battle is won not via fists or assholery, but to see who gains the most respect and attention.

See, I've met a few people from Glasgow some years back, among which one was "The Light of Group" while another could be termed as an Alpha. William had the traits of a nice guy at the surface and was a gentleman, but kept a keen eye on the group, always analyzing his situations and where to exploit. He wasn't attention hungry, but he did enjoy being intimately involved with groups no matter where he went, which concluded in him becoming an Alpha. What drove him to that position was his nature of mingling with everyone, the hilarity in his speech and ideas, boldness of befriending strangers, being open to social changes and always going for what he considered fun. He respected his peers and offered hospitality to even his enemies, always in control. The prize? He somehow always got to take a girl (usually a stranger) home with him, once couple of weeks.

What was interesting to note was his act of revenge when he did snap: apparently later he joined a company where some of his co-workers played pranks on him (and horrid ones at that). All the while he retained his cool and etiquette, but they persisted, going so far as wrecking his car. His revenge? He slept with the guy's girlfriend and the poor fellow could hardly do anything about it, let alone play another prank.

Another instance of Alpha dominance is this, which fairly applies to every one of our environments: in my friend circle we have many kinds of people, including one who seems like the William kind I explained above, a playboy who never misses his mark. But even so, the reason he isn't considered an Alpha is because he has no way of actually motivating and leading the group besides monetary fancies, like treating us at an expensive place. No, the real Alpha in our group is in fact the biggest geek we know. Despite his looks and tastes, what makes him lovable is actually his friendliness, his love for comedy and puns, adventure and exploration of trying interesting things and often leading the whole group to a land of mystery and insanity (and believe it or not, we love the shit!) He even has the privilege of mocking you, and what you love and hold dear. Despite all that, you still love the guy. He's a four eyed, know-it-all nerd who simply found the path to Enlightenment. XD
« Last Edit: June 10, 2011, 12:57:53 pm by tushantin »