Messages

76

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Dragon Gods and the Time Devourer...

« on: February 03, 2020, 12:00:57 pm »

That quote by Belthasar makes things even more confusing than they should be. It implies there was a population for the name "Sea of Eden" to become known to. Otherwise, it was known as the Sea of Eden to who? The Chronopolis workers? It also implies that people knew of FATE's existence, which I believe was not the case. Seems iffy.

Steena also has this quote regarding the Dragon Gods:

   Have you noticed that many
   of the islands were named
   after dragons?
   This is because those islands
   were where the Dragon Gods
   resided.
   But as human society grew less
   concerned for nature, the
   Dragon Gods chose to hide
   from the world's eyes...

So human society named some of the islands after the Dragon Gods that lived there, but according to Belthasar, the entire region was also known as the Sea of Eden because of the Dragon Gods? And then at some point they decided they didn't care about Dragon Gods anymore and renamed the region El Nido? And then they named FATE's corner of the archipelago the Sea of Eden because it was where the new godhead resided?

I dunno. It seems weird. The population of El Nido should not be aware that there's a supercomputer in the Sea of Eden playing god. As far as they know, it was already called that, and in Home World it was eventually changed to the Dead Sea after the Acacia Dragoons met their end there.

Even the demi humans and explorers of El Nido don't have much to tell about the Sea of Eden:

   Why do you wish to know
   about the Sea of Eden?
   Even if I told you, there
   is no way for you to enter it.
   Poisonous leaves that cause
   instant death surround the sea.
   Anyone with a head on his
   shoulder would not dare go
   near there.
   That place is cursed...
   The eternal flames of the gods
   are trying to burn their way
   into the hearts of humans.
   It is much too dangerous.
   Even the seagulls avoid
   flying over that place.
   There are rumors that, long ago,
   a deadly Dragon God sealed a
   flame in there.
   It is also rumored that
   time is reversed.
   I strongly urge that
   you not go near there.

   Legend has it that the people who
   lived in the Sea of Eden passed
   through the Pearly Gates to inhabit
   the El Nido Archipelago.
   If that's true, then that means
   we're all descendants of those
   first settlers of mankind.

Also, if FATE split up the Dragon God without sealing away its powers, there's no way it would have not immediately retaliated. I feel like that quote by Belthasar could be a mistranslation or just oddly phrased.

77

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Dragon Gods and the Time Devourer...

« on: January 23, 2020, 10:55:49 am »

When encountering Belthasar in Terra Tower for the first time, he mentions this:

   The Dragon Gods were originally
   a singular plasma life-form...
   ...A living accumulation of the
   planet's energy!
   Originally it was a biological
   machine used to control the
   powers of nature in the future
   society of the Reptites.
   In order to control the natural
   energy itself, FATE divided the
   one Dragon God entity up into
   6 weaker plasma life-forms...
   Then scattered them across
   the land and sealed them away.
   Their dragon-like appearances
   are just pseudo-guises...
   ...Temporary forms they take
   so that they can appear in
   this dimension.

FATE was the one who divided the Dragon God into six separate, weaker plasma entities. Those individual entities then each assumed a dragon-like appearance so they could physically manifest in the world.

After the battle with the Dragon God concludes, Belthasar goes on to say:

   That thing...
   the '"Dragon God"'...
   is only a quasi-existence...
   ...A temporary form that
   the real Dragon God uses
   in order to appear within
   this dimension.

   The actual Dragon God
   was consumed long ago,
   in the distant past...
   Integrated by the entity
   known as Lavos in a time
   on the other side of the
   dimensional darkness.

Now that last part is confusing, and the only part that mentions Lavos in relation to the Dragon God. I take this to mean that in 12,000 BC, both Chronopolis and Dinopolis manifested in the world, war ensued, Chronopolis won and defeated the Dragon God. Perhaps at this time, the Dragon God was discarded to the Darkness Beyond Time, where Lavos was also currently residing. Thus explaining how Lavos could "integrate" the Dragon God.

The only thing this then leaves unclear is what exactly it was that FATE split up into lesser plasma life forms. Perhaps some remnant of the Dragon God that remained in the physical world. The game is a little vague about this.

78

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Lucca vs Lynx

« on: January 17, 2020, 12:24:38 am »

I know there are pointers that Lucca is dead, but I think there's a chance she might be alive. That scene near the end of the game, when Serge confronts Lynx in the burning orphanage... Her glasses are on the floor, next to his feet, which would indicate a struggle, yet no body can be observed... What happened to Lucca? Did Lynx burn her corpse? This seems unlikely in such a short time. Why is Lynx standing there, looking desperately out of the window? Could it be that Lucca climbed through and ran for it? It seems out of character for her, to leave the kids behind like that. I dunno.

As for Belthasar... He's a maniac. Manipulated countless lives and civilizations in order to execute his plan. So yes, I'd 100% buy it if he sacrificed Lucca to that end. To what extent she knew of his plan, who knows. I doubt she knew she was going to be killed. If she had, she wouldn't have endangered the kids in her orphanage. Before Serge's intervention (and possibly even after), several children died in that fire. Belthasar would have been fine with that, but not Lucca.

79

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: What do you think the temperature is in 12,000 BC?

« on: January 10, 2019, 05:43:38 pm »

Wait, they don't freeze? Hmmm ......

80

History, Locations, and Artifacts / What do you think the temperature is in 12,000 BC?

« on: January 10, 2019, 05:12:30 pm »

Even though there's still snow everywhere, the water is not frozen, so I guess it's not below zero? Maybe the ice age was already in the process of ending? What do you think? How cold is it really in 12,000 BC (not including Zeal)?

81

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: Is there anyone else who...

« on: May 31, 2018, 10:17:37 am »

Does he? I'm pretty sure the first time he ever refers to himself as Glenn in the game is when he opens up the path to the Magic Cave. Before that the name is only ever seen during the flashbacks. Considering the scene at the Magic Cave, where he gathers his resolves and becomes at peace with the shame and regrets of what happened to Cyrus, plus his transformation, it makes me think that perhaps he also stopped using his name. Come to think of it, looking over at the script, it doesn't look like anyone actually knows Frog is Glenn (although in the Retranslation notes it states that perhaps the Knight Captain has figured it out, but the line itself seems ambigious enough), which would make no sense if he still called himself Glenn. Him being a human-turned-frogman is no secret, so just saying his name is Glenn would give away he is the same one that left with Cyrus.

On to the question itself, no, I don't really rename anybody.

Wow, actually, you could be right. Come to think of it, when Tata finds the Hero's Medal, the king is like "Cyrus must have sent the boy to us." They don't even know he died, do they?

That is insane. My mind is blown right now.

Maybe Glenn didn't take "Frog" as his literal name, but he just uses "Frog" to obscure his identity. That puts things in a whole different perspective.

It's weird that Leene and he are so close then tho. Leene seems really concerned about him, more so than any other soldier. And why did they trust a funny looking frog-man who looks more like a mystic than a human? If they don't know he's Glenn, do they ever find out during the game?

Magus, to me, is dead by the time the party gets him to join the team. I don't mean a literal death, of course, but rather mean that, well, Janus is reborn. As Beach Bum stated, Janus was no more after the Ocean Palace disaster. He shed his identity and became Magus, manipulating the Mystics/Fiends and pushing the boundaries of his body in order to enact his revenge against Lavos. However, after coming full circle, confronting the loss of Schala (again, quite literally reliving the event), he sort of sheds the life he lived as Magus. He no longer acts or considers himself the Fiendlord, and he steels his resolve to continue to defeat Lavos and save Schala. To me, I always felt like Magus regains his sense of self and comes to terms with who he really is (as Janus) after those events, and thus I name him as Janus to recognize that, to me at least, he regains his sense of self lost so long ago.

I don't see Magus as just being the leader of the mystics. What happened to him shaped not only his appearance, but also his personality, attitude and probably the nature of his magic. He sort of lives in the darkness, even after Chrono Trigger, resolved to his singular goal of finding Schala.

After the fall of Zeal he also makes a speech about his past self and how he was a different person then. I feel like if he came to terms with his old self as Janus, he would have said something about that.

82

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Is there anyone else who...

« on: May 31, 2018, 02:45:27 am »

...Always changes Frog's name to Glenn when playing Chrono Trigger?

He's the only character I rename. Glenn is his real name, and he never chose the name "Frog" when he was changed into a frog. He still just used his regular name, which is Glenn. It just seems stupid to me to call him Frog.

There are others in the game who have other names, but I leave them alone. Robo's original "name" is Prometheus or R66-Y, but when you meet him he doesn't remember Prometheus (I think, and it's too long anyway) and he seems okay with being given a new name. Marle's name is really Nadia, but she chose the name Marle for herself to escape the royalty life. Magus' name is really Janus, but he himself changed it to Magus when he became the leader of the mystics. And since you recruit Magus late in the game, and he's referred to throughout the entire game as Magus, it makes no sense to change it back to Janus. Plus, he's a completely different person now.

Anyone else who changes names?

83

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: Chrono Cross

« on: May 29, 2018, 02:13:28 pm »

All of that however was taken from him when they defeated Dalton. Isn't that more than enough motive for revenge?

Maybe... But the fact remains that the party wasn't really out to stop Dalton. They only got involved because he falsely imprisoned them and stole their property. At the end of the day, he has nobody to blame but himself.

And as I've said, he can't legitimately be angry about losing Zeal AND his crown. It has to be one or the other, since the loss of Zeal was the very thing that enabled him to take power. Even if he mistakenly blames the party for Zeal's fall, it was a GOOD thing for him. (Except for the loss of potential immortality, but he doesn't list that as one of his grievances.)

Okay, so maybe he doesn't see it that way, because he's obviously deranged. But there's also the problem of where to assign the blame. Who was in the party that defeated him? The game doesn't provide a canon answer. It's actually the first time that the game doesn't force anyone into your party and you have total control over your team composition. Since it could have been anybody, why does Dalton specifically choose Present Guardia as his target? Why not Middle Ages Guardia, or Ioka Village?

I think Acacia Sgt's idea that Dalton simply blames the entire group as a whole, and calls out Crono as its ringleader despite him not being on the Blackbird, is the best one I've heard. It makes some assumptions about what Dalton could know, but apparently he's omniscient anyway. How else could he even know Guardia exists?
(You can't escape the plot holes, even when you're being generous.)

But there's also the problem of Dalton literally warning his enemies about his plans. How could those plans even get off the ground if Guardia knew exactly what to watch out for?

Also, we have to take into account that Dalton didn't simply brainwash all of Porre. He simply sparked the flames of war that already existed there somewhere. Porre seized their opportunity and accepted his bid to become the world superpower.

Is there anything in either game that indicates Porre had some kind of pre-existing animosity toward Guardia?

You know they would have attempted to stop Dalton either way, even if he hadn't attacked them. His reasons for imprisoning them were legit: There's no way they would let a tyrant like him run free, especially if his reign was an anomaly caused by their meddling in the timeline.

I do think he blames the entire group, and he knew Crono was the leader. We don't know just how much he learned from his time in the Dimensional Vortex. He probably accessed and observed various different time periods.

As for warning them, it wouldn't have mattered if the seeds of hatred were already implanted in Porre somewhere. No, we don't see clear evidence of this in either of the games, but if Porre truly desired peace with Guardia, Dalton wouldn't have been able to rally them. Porre became a superpower in such a short amount of time. I don't think Guardia could have stopped them even if they knew what was going to go down.

84

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Re: Why are there sealed doors in 2300 AD?

« on: May 29, 2018, 07:12:53 am »

Well, I suppose it's less far-fetched than people building doors from a civilization they couldn't know about that they didn't have the means to open later.

85

History, Locations, and Artifacts / Why are there sealed doors in 2300 AD?

« on: May 29, 2018, 03:48:54 am »

After charging up Schala's pendant, one of the things you can do is open up those pesky sealed doors you encountered earlier. In 2300 AD. Behind one of those is the Epoch. While it would make sense that Belthasar has the know-how to create a sealed door, it doesn't explain the others. Since they are located in domes, they must have been placed after their construction, which would be at least a couple thousand years after the fall of Zeal.

These sealed doors also can only be opened using Schala's pendant. Since Schala's pendant seemed long lost at that point of time, I don't even know how that works. Did the people in the future construct sealed doors that they would never be able to open afterwards? What's the purpose of that? And is it even possible to accomplish that without help of Enlightened Ones?

Why would sealed doors from such an ancient time period exist in the far future? Surely Belthasar did not visit several domes and installed sealed doors inside of them?

86

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: Chrono Cross

« on: May 29, 2018, 02:27:52 am »

Look, Dalton's hatred towards Crono & co was an anomaly created by the new timeline they created when visiting Zeal. If that's the case, we must simply look at what's different in the Lavos timeline. Although we don't know for certain, I think we can be safe to assume that:

- Without a prophet, Dalton was Zeal's right hand man and enforcer, going with her to the depths of the Ocean Palace
- He perished there when Lavos woke up

In the keystone timeline, the delay caused by him having to battle Crono & co relieved him of the pressure to stand beside the queen, and gave him time to think things through. Sensing Lavos' power and the danger that comes with it, he realized this could spell disaster and wisely fucked off to see what was going to happen from a safe distance.

With all of Zeal at the bottom of the sea, it left him as the highest ranking Enlightened One and gave him the opportunity to take power. If not for the interference of Crono's buddies and with Dalton in power, there might not have been a Guardia at all. He could have ruled the world. More than that, he could have manipulated different time periods. With both the Blackbird and the Epoch at his disposal, he would've been nigh unstoppable.

All of that however was taken from him when they defeated Dalton. Isn't that more than enough motive for revenge?

Also, we have to take into account that Dalton didn't simply brainwash all of Porre. He simply sparked the flames of war that already existed there somewhere. Porre seized their opportunity and accepted his bid to become the world superpower.

87

Chrono / Gameplay Casual Discussion / Re: Chrono Cross

« on: May 28, 2018, 08:40:52 pm »

Why would the Acacia Dragoons have participated in the Fall of Guardia? Weren't Porre and they enemies? It would also seem a bit overkill for Guardia, military power wise.

So when do you think Porre made its spurt in technological advance? When did they go from pretty much having no military force to a full blown superpower consisting of squadrons of musket-wearing soldiers? And what exactly did this entail?

On the flip side of that coin, Dalton still seemed very much interested in powerful artifacts, magical in nature or no, such as the Masamune. I always imagined that it was Dalton's deep hatred that corrupted the Masamune into its demonic form, after which he handed it to Lynx who lured him in with promises of the Frozen Flame.

88

Chrono Trigger Modification / Re: Chrono Concepts - How Do You Picture the Next Chrono Game?

« on: May 28, 2018, 08:03:42 pm »

What about a game that explores the origins of Lavos? I've always been curious about it. We're calling it Lavos, but it really is just a species of unknown origins that came from somewhere. Either someone or something created it as a weapon of cosmic proportions, or the species is just a life form that originated through mutation or evolution. I lean towards the latter, as a big bad "Mwahaha" being behind the creation of Lavos seems lame. What could anyone hope to gain from creating a life form that annihilates planets endlessly, with the possibility of mutating into a devourer of all spacetime?

Also, we have no idea just how many other Lavos'es are out there. It would be quite incredible if Earth (is it Earth?) was the first planet to fall victim to its species. There might even be Lavos spawns left that Crono & co hadn't discovered. Would space travel be too much of a leap for a new installment?

89

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Were Lynx's actions a design flaw by FATE, or FATE itself?

« on: March 01, 2018, 10:31:06 am »

Isn't it actually rather odd for Harle to be switching sides to Serge? After Fort Dragonia, Lynx has Serge's body and thus the key to the Frozen Flame. If she stuck with Lynx, she could have an opportunity to steal the Frozen Flame a lot sooner. I know she may or may not have had feelings for Serge and all that, but that didn't stop her from completing her mission in the end.

90

Characters, Plot, and Themes / Re: Were Lynx's actions a design flaw by FATE, or FATE itself?

« on: February 28, 2018, 06:52:24 pm »

In that case, maybe FATE was deliberately programmed by Belthasar to bear a hatred against Serge?

Although this is a whole different subject, it also surprises me how FATE completely ignored Harle. On the surface she seemed its aide, but it knew nothing about her. We know her true origins ofcourse, but as far as FATE was concerned she just appeared out of nowhere one day, and then after Fort Dragonia switches sides to Serge.