Author Topic: So, where the hell are we going?  (Read 2005 times)

Exodus

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So, where the hell are we going?
« on: September 04, 2005, 03:23:39 am »
What should we do?

Fix the demo, of course!

The basic train of thought running through my mind at the moment is to refine the demo to attract more people.

More talented people = better chances of actually succeeding.

We can't rely on a team of ten or fifteen people. We've gotta get larger, or this won't get anywhere.

So, I propose that the demo be enlarged, and take up a much longer span of time than five minutes.

I've already created some new areas, which I'll be uploading shortly.

Lordchander

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« Reply #1 on: September 04, 2005, 03:31:32 am »
I havent posted here for a while now and I would really like to actualy officially help out with CE (though my talents with stuff like this are extremely limited, and I stress on the word extrememely).

My opinion: Yes, expanding and making a larger demo would definately attarct more ppl to Crimson Echoes and get them to join the team.

Magus-X

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« Reply #2 on: September 04, 2005, 04:07:55 pm »
My only talents are editing the world and editing the places for example chrono house. Pick me for that, I know I can do a good job.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2005, 02:03:36 am »
If I may play the role of dissenter, I don't think you need a bigger team, and I don't think you should focus on improving the demo.

You need one person to be nominally aware of everything that's going on in this project. This one person will know what needs to be done, and will either do it himself or herself, or will find someone else on the team who can do it and assign that work to them. If you don't have fifteen concrete assignments out there right now, you don't need fifteen people, let alone more. In fact, you probably need fewer people on the day-to-day staff. Fifteen is not a terribly stable number; seven would be much better. But my point is not to get hung up on the business of picking a staff size that looks the prettiest. Use the staff you need, don't keep any more on hand, and if you don't have enough people to get things as soon as you'd like, then you bring on more, or protract development time. It's as simple as that.

As for refining the demo versus continuing with the game, I should remind you that people don't want to play a Chrono demo. They want to play a completed, feature-length Chrono game. And certainly they do not want to play a marginally polished demo that has already been published. If you compartmentalize the game like this and play perfectionist within each compartment, you'll never finish the project. The demo is not perfect, but it certainly isn't terrible, and I think you will find that you get better as you go. If you can't put together something special the first time through, you're probably never going to be able to do so. Thus, if you want to do a "second draft," as it were, wait as long as you can before turning away from the finish line and going back to the starting point. And I'll tell you what: The only thing you absolutely need to finish before moving ahead is a coherent master plotline. That can take as little as a few pages of notes. All the details--the sidequests, the character development, locations and graphics--all of these things can be produced on the fly, as need for them is recognized by the top director or other concerned staff.

All in all, you need to focus on your central priority: Completing the game. Do what it takes to get that done; don't get hung up dallying on irrelevancies.

Agent 12

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« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2005, 02:20:34 am »
Sorry to point this out but I think Lord J is right.  Not many people are going to be impressed with a better demo....in fact I think they'd get bored, you can only make it so much better.

I made a colliseum by myself, it was a pretty big project and I had no idea what it how it was going to work before I started it.  I finished it in under a month.

Now here's what you need to do, figure out the plot, make a storyline and outline and DIVIDE IT UP.  Turn one big goal into 60 small goals, take your 15 people and give them 4 goals a piece.  Tell them EXACTLY what you need to do.  If I had to go back and redo the colliseum right now knowing exactly how it was going to end I could do it in a week, and mostly on the weekend (I barely get anything done on weekdays).  This project will die unless you make some concrete goals.

I honestly think making a bigger team will hinder us.  There's a word for it in economics but the jist is having 30 people make one box is not as good as having 6 people make a box.  The data will more than likely just get lost, or someone will change something that will affect another person's project, I don't know how much coding you've done but if it's not organized it's very easy to use someone else's text index, or memory address.

Sorry for the rant, but I really feel strongly about this and I think getting caught up on the demo is taking a wrong turn.

--jp

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2005, 02:34:14 am »
Yeah, it's called diminishing returns. And everyone's going to have to cooperate, yes. The plot people will check on the ROM, the ROM people will check on the plot. The team moves forward as a collective, adhering to the plot but maintaining flexibility according to the ROM's limitations and unique opportunities.

Lord J Esq

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« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2005, 02:39:10 am »
I think in this case he was talking about the upper-end inefficiencies described by the premise of economies of scale, as in "too many chefs spoil the broth." =P

(Sorry...I had to. It was like one of those itches that you'll go crazy if you don't scratch...)

Exodus

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« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2005, 03:00:25 am »
More than half the current team is comprised of advisors and "beta testers", as Zeality put it; not that your roles aren't important; we just need more people to work with Flux. That, and most of the people that worked on it have seemingly disappeared.

Improving the demo (we're talking at least thirty to forty-five minutes of play time) would certainly attract the attention of many fans.

The current team of Temporal Flux operators is not large enough, I'm sorry to admit. We need more people.

Now, contrary to what you believe, we won't be stuck on the demo; we're not going to spend more time on it than necessary.

Fixing the demo is only of importance because of two reasons:

a. the beginning needs to be refined anyway,

and

b. I can't stress enough that we need more people with Flux experience.

I also can't stress enough that our current team is not sufficient in size; quality, yes. Don't take my statements as personal insults.

So, unless the advisors and beta testers want to pick up Flux for themselves, we need to attract more people to the project.

If you've got a better, more efficient method than wooing them with a quality demo, speak now or forever hold it.

By the way, a theory is not enough to warrant a smaller production size. I fail to see its relevance.

Lordchander

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« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2005, 06:21:07 am »
Exodous, if u want, u can get rid of me, seeing as i can only do cosmetic stuff in flux (even then im not that good  :P ). I can see what you're doing is really good to try and flush out those who have hardly any experience and get everyone who does to work togetehr.


In my parting words, all I can say is:

GOOD LUCK TO ALL INVOLVED IN CHRONO TRIGGER: CRIMSON ECHOES!!!! MAY TEMPORAL FLUX AND GOD BE WITH YOU!!!

and good luck to you exodous and teh Schala, i wish u all my best!


~LC

teh Schala

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« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2005, 02:11:19 pm »
Exodus knows the individual skills of each person better than I, so I won't comment on that most recent post by Chander... =P

While I do tend to agree with Esq in terms of team size, I'm also more of an "I'll work with what I've got" person...so if Exodus wants to hire more people, ok.  Long as we DO have SOME people who can flex Flux's muscles...  Flex Flux...  Heh...  Flux Flexers. :lol:

Anyway...

As for the TF people we DO have...  we do need to get Chronopolis built.  ZeaLitY, how did you coordinate the building of Manoria Cathedral in 1000?  I know you basically selected a map to overwrite, and gave a diagram or outline of how it should look.  Did you design those outlines yourself?  I'm guessing so...  If that's the case, I need to get an outline whipped out for how Chronopolis will be laid out, then we can get our Flux Flexers on it.  That can be worked on while Hadriel and I work on the last chapter, final boss, and the ending.

Exodus

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« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2005, 07:11:27 pm »
All right. Look.

Team sizes are an issue. We can't have small sizes for a larger project.

I suppose seven or eight people would be acceptable... if we were working on a sprite comic. But that isn't the case, is it?

The underlying issue is that we are not working on a small project. We are working, quite frankly, on an entirely new game, and quite a bit of the game will be changed.

Not only that, but I'm not letting a simple theory on human memory get in my way of creating the best damn game possible. If you don't trust that I can keep tabs on who's working on the project, that's your damn problem.

It's not like I came up with this on a whim anyway; I spent a good four hours of my Thursday evening thinking up ways of bettering production.

And, as I've already said, we have at most, four people that can use Flux. So hey, if you want this project to take a few years, be my guest. I don't.

ZeaLitY chose me for a reason; I know what I'm doing. So can't you display a bit of trust in my decisions?

Oh, and Lordchander, you're more than welcome to stay.

ZeaLitY

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« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2005, 07:25:30 pm »
Yes, the bottom line is always Temporal Flux. Workers of it have the final say in matters simply because they are endowed with the power to put these wonderous plans of fanfiction into stone. The production team could shrink...if everyone knew how to use Temporal Flux. Until that day, we at least have to find a couple more people who can use the program.

Agent 12

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« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2005, 08:35:47 pm »
Of course more people is better but you do have some skill here that should be put into use.  Motivation right now is high after the release and you can keep that motivation by showing progress.  

Once again small goals is the key to that, Zeality made that wonderful little task scheduler sticky that allowed me to watch that he was getting action done, it kept me coming back every day to see what happened.

The theory of diminishing returns not only applies to this but it applies STRONGLY to this undertaking.  I admit we are not at the peak of our team number yet but once this coding does start having alot of coders can seriously hinder the overall product.  I don't know how much coding you've done but it's seriously true, a couple of examples

Languages implement private variables for when many people are working on a project, TF does not have a way to protect our the many IMPORTANT private variables that Crimson echoes will be using.  This means that two people could use the same variable to say..remember that a certain NPC has been talked to.  If this happened it could take forever to figure out what is going wrong.

My colliseum was made by me and my roommate and we even had an issue where he opened the rom and saved it on his comp.  Then I opened the rom on my computer, saved it and ended up saving over all the work he had done.



Quote
quite frankly, on an entirely new game


We are not working on an entirely new game.  We already have SOOOO much done for us by squaresoft and Temporal flux.  It's more like we are rearranging the lego's of a big castle into another cool looking castle (I'm bad at analogies).

I'm really sorry if this is sounding rude, I'm really just trying to help.  I completely respect Zeality's decision, you're never quit attitude is so important to the completion of this game.  

--jp

teh Schala

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« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2005, 09:33:48 pm »
Regarding the variables, Dag, the Changelog is there for just that reason...  And it's actually meant to be as in-depth as you're saying: which variables are being used for what, so that we know what's been changed and other TF users won't overwrite a change that's already been made.

I will be coming up with a layout for Chronopolis tonight.  I need to know who all our key TF users are so I can contact them individually to construct it.

Agent 12

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« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2005, 10:27:48 pm »
Quote
Regarding the variables, Dag, the Changelog is there for just that reason


Yes, the changelog is very important, I actually used it.  Those were just some examples, if you have alot of people working on something and they don't understand the whole picture it can start to hurt...like say you were going to use what you thought was a blank spot of a map (you know how some maps have like 5 different maps on them), but someone else thought the same thing and well you know the rest.

I'm sorry I'm sounding like such a prick, I swear I'm not really like this, I just believe in the Diminishing returns theory.

--jp