Author Topic: Question about the fall of guardia.  (Read 7808 times)

Magus_Brokenhart

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Question about the fall of guardia.
« on: November 01, 2006, 02:15:50 am »
Alright, some people think Dalton was the long-haired man that is seen fighting in the anime cutscenes of Chrono Trigger. I was thinking, that for some odd reason, Magus could have done this. He could have just wanted to take the Masamune, a Zealian artifact back. Just a silly theory, but i'd think the Masamune could have reacted to Magus wielding it in an odd way. It could have absorbed his dark energy or something, which leads to the sword turning wicked. This could have also turned Magus back to "normal", which is why Lucca calls him Janus on the letter. If I am missing something, or ignored some fact, please tell me.

Zaperking

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2006, 08:20:28 pm »
CC and RD tend to imply that it wasn't Magus. Magus, for one, is still a friend of Lucca's after the fall. If it was Magus, Lucca wouldn't be pleased, now would she. Besides the fact that also in RD, Magus seemed to have changed.

Heck, I don't even think Masato made up how the Fall occured. He probably just thought "Hey, lets kill off Guardia, and let the player imagine why we did that. No one likes Marle anyway, and we hate Crono." All he can say is that "It happened for reasons outside of time" and that "It'd take to long to explain". Pfft.

AuraTwilight

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2006, 10:13:08 pm »
Magus's priorities are finding Schala, not taking down some random kingdom he doesn't give 2 licks about.

A kingdom ruled by one (or two) of his allies and a residence to three of them, no doubt.

Ralkai

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2006, 03:56:59 pm »
the Magus's theory is a good one, but zperking had reason. After the fall Lucca and Magus are still friends.
And the Dalton theory... this make you think and answer other questions as "If Chrono and Marle are the only people in 1005 a.d. who can use magic how a normal enemy could beat them?" Dalton can also use magic and after defeat him in the Blackwind he disapeared in an extrange portal. Maybe this portal sent him to the future. Nevertheless if Dalton was the long-haired man... Why is he using a sword and not magic if he is better wizard than swordsman?
I don't think the long-haired man is Dalton. He must be only a soldier...

Magus22

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2006, 04:01:08 pm »
I am the one that came up with the whole Dalton theory and Fall of Guardia. I linked every detail and clue from the FMVs and such onto him. Everything makes sense too...

Here's my theory, copied from a previous post of mine:

Quote from: Magus22 - Chrono Break?
To summarize what I have stated;

There was a hidden agenda behind Porre that Crono/Marle/Company found out about. A mysterious Porre dictator appeared one day with rumored motive and means for the Guardia line to cease. This individual was Dalton of Zeal. His role in taking out Guardia suggests he wanted to take Crono and Marle out of the picture since they were his first and foremost threat in the timeline. Please note that the following CT characters are dead and pose no threat to Dalton's new reign . . . Ayla, Glenn, Robo, and Lucca-who is believed to have died in 1015AD from the attack on the orphanage. Also, Magus is currently MIA at the current moment. Now, Guardia fell in 1005AD and as soon as intel confirmed Crono and Marle were believed to have perished in the attack, the victory of Porre over Guardia would be guaranteed.
It’s believed, before the events from which Guardia fell, that Dalton traveled forward in time after the events of Zeal in 12,000BC and the involvement of Crono and co. Craving the awesome power of the parasite known as Lavos and fueled by revenge, he retraced the steps of Crono's allies after the Ocean Palace disaster and followed them to Death Peak in the future. After finding out Lavos existed in this time and its offspring, he had a sick and twisted idea where he would soon return atop Death Peak again. After Lavos was destroyed, he returned to Death Peak, searched, and found but one crucial mistake left behind by our band of heroes. Marle and co. who were determined to bring Crono back, killed a Lavos Spawn in a box canyon, and in order to advance further up the mountain, they used the shell of the Lavos Spawn to climb higher where they would reach there goal. Dalton examined the shell and collected a sample of its DNA from the shell and or inner layer. His plan was now set into motion.

To recap again, Dalton overthrew Guardia so that there would be no trouble from our previous heroes. His master plan is to create another Lavos parasite, raise it, and then control it so that he can conquer the many different parts of the Chrono world.

The one thing he did not account for was the Prophet in his time, who we know as Magus prince of Zeal. Dalton’s magic is strong, and the only person with superior magic ability is Magus. Magus may possibly be allied with Crono and Marle once again from CT, awaiting the opportunity to stop Dalton and put an end to Porre’s rein. For all we know, Crono and Marle are in hiding awaiting the return of "someone". The play by play context on how Magus comes into the picture with Crono/Marle to stop Dalton is a mystery, but perhaps his mind is guided by the return of Schala who will join with Magus to stop this insurrection. They might even team up with Serge, or the other important characters of CC. That’s for you to decide…

*The opening FMV to the next Chrono game would begin with Marle, Lucca, Frog, Robo, Ayla, and Magus pushing the Lavos Spawn shell into a position against the box canyon where they could advance up the mountain. The camera pans on each character as you see the emotion and expressions on their faces as they one by one climb onto the shell and up the cliff. The camera then pans out and then back in on the stationary Lavos Spawn shell. A change in time, perhaps months or years, takes place and just as little by little, snow covers the shell. A mysterious silhouette of a figure then stands in front of the shell.* -us Chrono fans would identify the complexture and shape of the mystery person to be Dalton.


This is the jist of it for anyone just reading up about my theory on the next Chrono game.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2006, 04:03:36 pm by Magus22 »

AuraTwilight

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2006, 02:16:30 pm »
Um...Lucca was attacked like ten years AFTER the Fall of Guardia. Not to mention that Dalton never fell through a Time Gate.

Ralkai

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2006, 03:41:33 pm »
I am the one that came up with the whole Dalton theory and Fall of Guardia. I linked every detail and clue from the FMVs and such onto him. Everything makes sense too...

Here's my theory, copied from a previous post of mine:

Quote from: Magus22 - Chrono Break?
To summarize what I have stated;

...Please note that the following CT characters are dead and pose no threat to Dalton's new reign . . . Ayla, Glenn, Robo, and Lucca-who is believed to have died in 1015AD from the attack on the orphanage. Also, Magus is currently MIA at the current moment....

what is the meaning of "MIA"? sorry, but I don't understand that sentence...

Radical_Dreamer

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2006, 04:20:18 pm »
I am the one that came up with the whole Dalton theory and Fall of Guardia. I linked every detail and clue from the FMVs and such onto him. Everything makes sense too...

Here's my theory, copied from a previous post of mine:

Quote from: Magus22 - Chrono Break?
To summarize what I have stated;

...Please note that the following CT characters are dead and pose no threat to Dalton's new reign . . . Ayla, Glenn, Robo, and Lucca-who is believed to have died in 1015AD from the attack on the orphanage. Also, Magus is currently MIA at the current moment....

what is the meaning of "MIA"? sorry, but I don't understand that sentence...

MIA means Missing in Action.  It refers to troops in hostile territory whose current whereabouts are unknown.

Ralkai

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2006, 09:06:17 am »
I am the one that came up with the whole Dalton theory and Fall of Guardia. I linked every detail and clue from the FMVs and such onto him. Everything makes sense too...

Here's my theory, copied from a previous post of mine:

Quote from: Magus22 - Chrono Break?
To summarize what I have stated;

...Please note that the following CT characters are dead and pose no threat to Dalton's new reign . . . Ayla, Glenn, Robo, and Lucca-who is believed to have died in 1015AD from the attack on the orphanage. Also, Magus is currently MIA at the current moment....

what is the meaning of "MIA"? sorry, but I don't understand that sentence...

MIA means Missing in Action.  It refers to troops in hostile territory whose current whereabouts are unknown.

Thanks for the explanation, but I think that Magus is searching Schala while Guardia falls. Don't you believe?

Yalan

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2006, 04:05:06 pm »
Well, it's probably not Magus but I don't think you realize what Magus is. If finding Schala meant destroying Guardia, he wouldn't hesitate to decimate it. He doesn't give a damn about Crono, Marle or Lucca. Even tho he was a good little boy back then and that he's searching for someone he loves, he's still a cruel, pale-faced dark wizard.

Zaperking

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2006, 05:00:57 pm »
Not really. RD, he found Schala but he didn't decimate anything. He actually turned good. So it'd be the same in CC regardless. Plus, Lucca already seems to figure that Magus may know where she is, but can't find her, but knows they'll be with eachother one day. And she's not being hostile about it.

Daniel Krispin

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2006, 03:13:17 am »
Well, it's probably not Magus but I don't think you realize what Magus is. If finding Schala meant destroying Guardia, he wouldn't hesitate to decimate it. He doesn't give a damn about Crono, Marle or Lucca. Even tho he was a good little boy back then and that he's searching for someone he loves, he's still a cruel, pale-faced dark wizard.

Nah, he's not that bad. He's of true heroic temper. You demean him to speak so basely of him. Yes, at points he did act harshly, but so did most heroes of antiquity - take the famous aristeia of Achilles. He butchers his enemies, even they who fall and beg mercy at his knees. He challenges the river Scamander, and taunts Apollo. He is like a brilliant star, arrayed in golden armour, very much like his epithet dios - godlike - suggests. Yet he is also beastlike in that aforementioned brutality. Such is the nature of an ancient hero. And that is precisely what Janus is. However, his strength is such that he is not prey to dark and bestial action - he commands it. He is dark, maybe, but of his own choosing, and can lay it aside at will. He struggled against himself, and won. The guy is a bloody hero, and noble to boot. And, if the translation was right in that interview with Kato, that's how he himself refers to Janus: the noble character of Janus. He is not a mere bloodthirsty anti-hero. Heck, he's not even an anti-hero at all! He's merely a hero our modern sensibilities might be a little uncomfortable with, but the sort of man Odysseus would have been in good company with, one who could also have gone by such epithets as 'far journeyed' and 'sacker of cities.' Those are names given to Odysseus, a man ruthless and powerful and cunning... but one of the truest heroes of antique Greece! If Janus has no company beside our 'heroes', he sure as hell is welcome beside those demigods of the Heroic Age, the speakers of words and the doers of deeds, in an age when the mighty ruled by force of voice and spear.

So let's not demean the poor man. Give him his dues, and place him on the same pedestal as Odysseus. Both are 'polytropos', being driven by fate - and their own wills - on long journeys. Both are the sackers of cities - only read what Odysseus' first action after the fall of Troy... like the pirate he is he destroys another city. Does this diminish his heroic stature? Not at all. Janus... he fought his wars, he destroyed cities, but his age was a harsher one. Let him be a hero for it. So consider it... Janus and Odysseus. They are not much different. One a man upon who the changes of the world balance, the doorway between ancient and modern, magic and strength, mind and spirit; the other, one whose name means 'to be wroth against'. But could that not fit the character of Janus, too, who is hated by no less potent a divinity than adverse Fortune... one, I might add, he beats back time and again?

grey_the_angel

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2006, 05:02:47 am »
Well, it's probably not Magus but I don't think you realize what Magus is. If finding Schala meant destroying Guardia, he wouldn't hesitate to decimate it. He doesn't give a damn about Crono, Marle or Lucca. Even tho he was a good little boy back then and that he's searching for someone he loves, he's still a cruel, pale-faced dark wizard.

Nah, he's not that bad. He's of true heroic temper. You demean him to speak so basely of him. Yes, at points he did act harshly, but so did most heroes of antiquity - take the famous aristeia of Achilles. He butchers his enemies, even they who fall and beg mercy at his knees. He challenges the river Scamander, and taunts Apollo. He is like a brilliant star, arrayed in golden armour, very much like his epithet dios - godlike - suggests. Yet he is also beastlike in that aforementioned brutality. Such is the nature of an ancient hero. And that is precisely what Janus is. However, his strength is such that he is not prey to dark and bestial action - he commands it. He is dark, maybe, but of his own choosing, and can lay it aside at will. He struggled against himself, and won. The guy is a bloody hero, and noble to boot. And, if the translation was right in that interview with Kato, that's how he himself refers to Janus: the noble character of Janus. He is not a mere bloodthirsty anti-hero. Heck, he's not even an anti-hero at all! He's merely a hero our modern sensibilities might be a little uncomfortable with, but the sort of man Odysseus would have been in good company with, one who could also have gone by such epithets as 'far journeyed' and 'sacker of cities.' Those are names given to Odysseus, a man ruthless and powerful and cunning... but one of the truest heroes of antique Greece! If Janus has no company beside our 'heroes', he sure as hell is welcome beside those demigods of the Heroic Age, the speakers of words and the doers of deeds, in an age when the mighty ruled by force of voice and spear.

So let's not demean the poor man. Give him his dues, and place him on the same pedestal as Odysseus. Both are 'polytropos', being driven by fate - and their own wills - on long journeys. Both are the sackers of cities - only read what Odysseus' first action after the fall of Troy... like the pirate he is he destroys another city. Does this diminish his heroic stature? Not at all. Janus... he fought his wars, he destroyed cities, but his age was a harsher one. Let him be a hero for it. So consider it... Janus and Odysseus. They are not much different. One a man upon who the changes of the world balance, the doorway between ancient and modern, magic and strength, mind and spirit; the other, one whose name means 'to be wroth against'. But could that not fit the character of Janus, too, who is hated by no less potent a divinity than adverse Fortune... one, I might add, he beats back time and again?
I have no idea what the fuck you said... but it was brillant!

Chrono'99

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2006, 06:31:07 am »
Well, it's probably not Magus but I don't think you realize what Magus is. If finding Schala meant destroying Guardia, he wouldn't hesitate to decimate it. He doesn't give a damn about Crono, Marle or Lucca. Even tho he was a good little boy back then and that he's searching for someone he loves, he's still a cruel, pale-faced dark wizard.

Nah, he's not that bad. He's of true heroic temper. You demean him to speak so basely of him. Yes, at points he did act harshly, but so did most heroes of antiquity - take the famous aristeia of Achilles. He butchers his enemies, even they who fall and beg mercy at his knees. He challenges the river Scamander, and taunts Apollo. He is like a brilliant star, arrayed in golden armour, very much like his epithet dios - godlike - suggests. Yet he is also beastlike in that aforementioned brutality. Such is the nature of an ancient hero. And that is precisely what Janus is. However, his strength is such that he is not prey to dark and bestial action - he commands it. He is dark, maybe, but of his own choosing, and can lay it aside at will. He struggled against himself, and won. The guy is a bloody hero, and noble to boot. And, if the translation was right in that interview with Kato, that's how he himself refers to Janus: the noble character of Janus. He is not a mere bloodthirsty anti-hero. Heck, he's not even an anti-hero at all! He's merely a hero our modern sensibilities might be a little uncomfortable with, but the sort of man Odysseus would have been in good company with, one who could also have gone by such epithets as 'far journeyed' and 'sacker of cities.' Those are names given to Odysseus, a man ruthless and powerful and cunning... but one of the truest heroes of antique Greece! If Janus has no company beside our 'heroes', he sure as hell is welcome beside those demigods of the Heroic Age, the speakers of words and the doers of deeds, in an age when the mighty ruled by force of voice and spear.

So let's not demean the poor man. Give him his dues, and place him on the same pedestal as Odysseus. Both are 'polytropos', being driven by fate - and their own wills - on long journeys. Both are the sackers of cities - only read what Odysseus' first action after the fall of Troy... like the pirate he is he destroys another city. Does this diminish his heroic stature? Not at all. Janus... he fought his wars, he destroyed cities, but his age was a harsher one. Let him be a hero for it. So consider it... Janus and Odysseus. They are not much different. One a man upon who the changes of the world balance, the doorway between ancient and modern, magic and strength, mind and spirit; the other, one whose name means 'to be wroth against'. But could that not fit the character of Janus, too, who is hated by no less potent a divinity than adverse Fortune... one, I might add, he beats back time and again?

Is there a hero of Antiquity who manipulated and betrayed an entire allied race, who turned a helpless enemy into a frog just for fun, who conducted torture, and who enslaved even the undead people?

Magus068

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Re: Question about the fall of guardia.
« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2006, 08:11:42 am »
who turned a helpless enemy into a frog just for fun, who conducted torture, and who enslaved even the undead people?

That's just a ploy to pleased Ozzie. What else can a hero-villain do?
« Last Edit: November 06, 2006, 08:14:04 am by Magus068 »