Could the Apes Evolve without the Frozen Flame?

[Zaperking]

Ayla isn't retarded, Zaper. She doesn't know quantom physics because Quantom physics weren't invented yet. She doesn't speak proper english because grammer rules were not yet defined. The Frozen Flame did it's job and humans got a bigger brain, but bigger brain doesn't mean a dog would become as smart as Einstein. The techonological and architectual acheivments were obvious with the Reptiets- They bulilt a fortress complete with a switch system and traps.  The Human mutation comes in the form of Magic, nothing else.

Lol. That sounded bad..

Quantim Physics had been "invented" since the big band. The moment a particle came into existance, the very moment a sub atomic particle started resonating was the moment that it all started. She doesn't speak good english because grammer rules aren't defined, but because their brain can't put together words, verbs, sentences and pronouns together. She gets her point across, but obviously in a prehistoric kind of way.

And it's not the fact that a dog would become as smart of Einstine, of course. You need a big brain to understand more, and be able to comprehend more. What sets our ancestors apart is our brain to theirs. Theirs was about x3 smaller than ours (this is where Chrono Chross gets it's facts from), whilst Neanderthal skulls were x2 bigger than ours, and this is why scientists believe that the Homo Neanderthal was a part of the classic humen, and cannot simply be portrayed as the normal barbaric, stupid cave men (even though the Neanderthals lived in caves).

Anyway, the Frozen Flamed awakened the humans. Belthasar's obvious quote on love and hate is a metaphor, but a literal one in many situations. Either way, it is also one metaphor saying that everything about the humans is unnatural. Magic was a part of the mutation. There is a reason why the brain had to enlargen aswell. Heck, it seems that the humans became less harier aswell (look at the hair of the males in 65,000,000BC comapred to that of 13,000BC and 600AD). Also, a larger brain is what develops new concepts.

And yes, the Reptites were further advanced, as I had said. I'm pretty sure something in CC hinted to the fact that back in those times, humans were recent and that the reptites had been around for way, way longer.

[Magus068]

Ayla isn't retarded, Zaper. She doesn't know quantom physics because Quantom physics weren't invented yet. She doesn't speak proper english because grammer rules were not yet defined. The Frozen Flame did it's job and humans got a bigger brain, but bigger brain doesn't mean a dog would become as smart as Einstein. The techonological and architectual acheivments were obvious with the Reptiets- They bulilt a fortress complete with a switch system and traps.  The Human mutation comes in the form of Magic, nothing else.

Lol. That sounded bad..

Quantim Physics had been "invented" since the big band. The moment a particle came into existance, the very moment a sub atomic particle started resonating was the moment that it all started. She doesn't speak good english because grammer rules aren't defined, but because their brain can't put together words, verbs, sentences and pronouns together. She gets her point across, but obviously in a prehistoric kind of way.

And it's not the fact that a dog would become as smart of Einstine, of course. You need a big brain to understand more, and be able to comprehend more. What sets our ancestors apart is our brain to theirs. Theirs was about x3 smaller than ours (this is where Chrono Chross gets it's facts from), whilst Neanderthal skulls were x2 bigger than ours, and this is why scientists believe that the Homo Neanderthal was a part of the classic humen, and cannot simply be portrayed as the normal barbaric, stupid cave men (even though the Neanderthals lived in caves).

Anyway, the Frozen Flamed awakened the humans. Belthasar's obvious quote on love and hate is a metaphor, but a literal one in many situations. Either way, it is also one metaphor saying that everything about the humans is unnatural. Magic was a part of the mutation. There is a reason why the brain had to enlargen aswell. Heck, it seems that the humans became less harier aswell (look at the hair of the males in 65,000,000BC comapred to that of 13,000BC and 600AD). Also, a larger brain is what develops new concepts.

And yes, the Reptites were further advanced, as I had said. I'm pretty sure something in CC hinted to the fact that back in those times, humans were recent and that the reptites had been around for way, way longer.

Zappy is right, Primitive men couldn't comprehend something complex as the modern language.

[Legend of the Past]

You so don't get it. You're blaming them like you blame a kid for speaking bad english or not knowing how to put together 3+4. They COULD comprehend quantom physics, they COULD put together words and setneces, they just didn't know how. Even primitive cavemen could do those things, but the thing is, the need didn't arise for them to further advance math. If they could understand each other with three word sentences, why start constructing longer ones? If 'Stone' 'Leaf' and 'Meat' was all they needed at the time, why make up words like 'engine', 'cannon' or 'steam'? Look at the camp scene-Ayla seemed to be on the same lines of thought as Crono and co., but by your logic all she should be able to think is 'Ho, ho, owl poop lick, ho, ho'.

[Magus068]

You so don't get it. You're blaming them like you blame a kid for speaking bad english or not knowing how to put together 3+4. They COULD comprehend quantom physics, they COULD put together words and setneces, they just didn't know how. Even primitive cavemen could do those things, but the thing is, the need didn't arise for them to further advance math. If they could understand each other with three word sentences, why start constructing longer ones? If 'Stone' 'Leaf' and 'Meat' was all they needed at the time, why make up words like 'engine', 'cannon' or 'steam'? Look at the camp scene-Ayla seemed to be on the same lines of thought as Crono and co., but by your logic all she should be able to think is 'Ho, ho, owl poop lick, ho, ho'.

Primitive mind=Primitive logic

They're in the developing stage of human evolution. They COULD construct simple sentences but their primitive mind COULDN'T comprehend Quantum Physics. It's like teaching a monkey how to construct a space shuttle.

[Legend of the Past]

THEY DON'T HAVE A PRIMITIVE MIND! >_>

[AuraTwilight]

Ayla has demonstrated that she can understand ideas just as easily as Crono and the gang. I give her credit for coming to the same conclusion as Lucca about Lavos' Core.

[Zaperking]

THEY DON'T HAVE A PRIMITIVE MIND! >_>

Then why is their brain x3 smaller.

And first you said that Quantim Physics didn't exist back then, now you're saying she could comprehend it >.>

Also, simply saying that Lavos smells of everyone isn't the same as "Lavos has been absorbing all the DNA of the entire human race, waiting to slaughter us all for his own need.. "

[AuraTwilight]

Yes, but to conclude that Lavos is an amagramation of everyone on the Earth (Or hell, somehow determining that Lavos smells like every creature that's ever lived) is pretty damn smart.

[Legend of the Past]

THEY DON'T HAVE A PRIMITIVE MIND! >_>

Then why is their brain x3 smaller.

And first you said that Quantim Physics didn't exist back then, now you're saying she could comprehend it >.>

Also, simply saying that Lavos smells of everyone isn't the same as "Lavos has been absorbing all the DNA of the entire human race, waiting to slaughter us all for his own need.. "

Yes, I've said Quantom Physics didn't exist back then. No one made it up yet, no one made up the formulas or ideas. I never meant physics themselves didn't exist back then- I'm not stupid enough to say that didn't exist in a place where you can TIME TRAVEL to.

Their brain is 3X smaller, but that isn't to say they started using more. That space went completely to magic, which, considering how potent Queen Zeal, Crono and Magus can get, makes total sense why it took SO much room. Our brain is the biggest on Earth, and we still use a tenth, arguably less, of it. Society didn't know a lot back then. It knew about things that existed on the surface, like rocks, wind and the sea. It didn't know anything. Ayla could reach a spiritual understanding about the Entity and realize how Lavos is, eventually, a big gene sucker. A thing which everyone could realize, and they all have bigger brains. Their brains may be primitive, but that doesn't mean they have a lesser cognitive ability.

[GrayLensman]

This is one area where Chrono Cross doesn't make sense.  The game states that human brain size increased three times over 3 million years due to contact with the Frozen Flame.  The Lab in Chronopolis unambiguously showed smaller brains and primitive ape-like skulls.  However, Ayla and all the prehistoric "apes" in Chrono Trigger were obviously anatomically human.  Even Leah, from Chrono Cross, was anatomically human.

[nightmare975]

Hmmm, never quite thought of that, never been to Chronopolis, but I do remember hearing about the 3 times brain size.

Did they ever show the full skeleton though?

[Chrono'99]

Well, let's look at the facts.

*quickly makes some research on the web*

It seems a modern human brain has a volume of 1,600 cm³.

1,600 / 3 = 533,333333 etc...

What we know is that the "original size" mentioned by the Terra Tower stoneface must be of roughly 530 cm³. According to many websites, the brain size of an Australopithecus is about 530 cm³ (!). This is too close to be just a coincidence for me, but I think there's a blurry zone: in French, the term "lignée humaine" refers to all species from the Australopithecus and the Homo families. In other words, calling an Australopithecus human is perfectly possible in French (obviously it's not always the case, sometimes it's just the Homo species, sometimes just the Homo sapiens, but it's still possible and not shocking). I don't know about English customs though.

So, if you don't want to consider the Australopithecus human, there's the Homo habilis who has a brain size of 550 to 650 cm³. It's less close to the 533,33... but it can fit.

Anyway my point is that, when the stoneface says that a modern human brain is 3 times bigger than the original brain, I believe it was comparing the brain size of the "corrupted" modern human with the brain size of either the Australopithecus, OR the Homo habilis, OR some other early human species. It couldn't have been referring to a more evolved species like the Homo erectus, because erectus already has a brain size of 1,000 cm³... too big to be 3 times smaller than the 1,600.

As for Ayla, she's clearly not an Australopithecus, she might be erectus or someone with no equivalent species in the real world. Anyway, her brain size is between the "original size" mentioned by the stoneface and the modern, 3-time bigger size. Her head is clearly too big to contain just a little 530 cm³ brain.

[Radical_Dreamer]

THEY DON'T HAVE A PRIMITIVE MIND! >_>

Then why is their brain x3 smaller.

And first you said that Quantim Physics didn't exist back then, now you're saying she could comprehend it >.>

Also, simply saying that Lavos smells of everyone isn't the same as "Lavos has been absorbing all the DNA of the entire human race, waiting to slaughter us all for his own need.. "

This is a fallacy. Brain size does not equate to greater intelligence. Neanderthals had larger brains than modern humans do, but they were not as skilled at abstraction as we are.

[Magus068]

Maybe Ayla is a Cro-Magnon to fit the description. After all, they're advance enough to make complex tools than their predecessors.

[Lee]

First of all, hi everyone, my first post here.

Anyway my point is that, when the stoneface says that a modern human brain is 3 times bigger than the original brain, I believe it was comparing the brain size of the "corrupted" modern human with the brain size of either the Australopithecus, OR the Homo habilis, OR some other early human species. It couldn't have been referring to a more evolved species like the Homo erectus, because erectus already has a brain size of 1,000 cm³... too big to be 3 times smaller than the 1,600.

While your post is perfectly argued, I don't understand what you mean by "corrupted modern human".