Author Topic: Guardia Royal Line Paradox  (Read 15227 times)

SilentMartyr

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2006, 12:27:12 pm »
Isn't the like number one time travel rule of the Chronoverse state that nothing changes until a change is actually made? Sure, Ayla does leave 65,000,000 but that doesn't instantly kill her. Lemme try and give an example of how this works.

Ayla for some reason becomes stranded in another time. Lets say that Ayla was supposed to bear children one year after she got stuck in her current time. Once Ayla stays past that year, then things get screwy, because she is not present at her time and cannot bear the children. That would end up messing the entire family tree.

But thats not what happened. Think about it, if in the unaltered timeline Ayla gave birth in 59,999,998 then why would her leaving that time earlier and returning back before hand affect anything in regards to the tree? It shouldn't, since in the Chronoverse things don't change until something changes it. Unless Ayla dies or is unable to return to her home time then nothing that comes after the time traveling would be affected.

AuraTwilight

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2006, 06:55:31 pm »
But from the way it's understood in Chronoverse, it's never assumed that a person will come back to their original time.


God, I fricken hate Time Travel -_-

Sentenal

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Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2006, 08:40:14 pm »
Quote from: SilentMartyr
Isn't the like number one time travel rule of the Chronoverse state that nothing changes until a change is actually made? Sure, Ayla does leave 65,000,000 but that doesn't instantly kill her. Lemme try and give an example of how this works.

Ayla for some reason becomes stranded in another time. Lets say that Ayla was supposed to bear children one year after she got stuck in her current time. Once Ayla stays past that year, then things get screwy, because she is not present at her time and cannot bear the children. That would end up messing the entire family tree.

But thats not what happened. Think about it, if in the unaltered timeline Ayla gave birth in 59,999,998 then why would her leaving that time earlier and returning back before hand affect anything in regards to the tree? It shouldn't, since in the Chronoverse things don't change until something changes it. Unless Ayla dies or is unable to return to her home time then nothing that comes after the time traveling would be affected.

Well, lets apply that backwards then.  A time traveler never returns to their own time until they actually do it.  If a Time Traveler leaves their own time, its not assumed that they will some time return.  Because as to that point, they had not returned.

Akuma

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #33 on: September 18, 2006, 01:21:39 am »
About how Doan can possibly be related to Marle. I know in real life history when a king or queen does not have any children to succeed them usually a family member, whether distant or close takes over.

Anyway, I don't think Marle and King Guardia XXXIII are the only surviving members of the royal family in 1000 A.D. Just the only ones we're aware of. So it's very possible Marle could be missing for a thousand years and Doan to be existing.

Mystic Frog King

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2007, 06:14:31 am »
Quote from: SilentMartyr
Isn't the like number one time travel rule of the Chronoverse state that nothing changes until a change is actually made? Sure, Ayla does leave 65,000,000 but that doesn't instantly kill her. Lemme try and give an example of how this works.

Ayla for some reason becomes stranded in another time. Lets say that Ayla was supposed to bear children one year after she got stuck in her current time. Once Ayla stays past that year, then things get screwy, because she is not present at her time and cannot bear the children. That would end up messing the entire family tree.

But thats not what happened. Think about it, if in the unaltered timeline Ayla gave birth in 59,999,998 then why would her leaving that time earlier and returning back before hand affect anything in regards to the tree? It shouldn't, since in the Chronoverse things don't change until something changes it. Unless Ayla dies or is unable to return to her home time then nothing that comes after the time traveling would be affected.
Well, lets apply that backwards then.  A time traveler never returns to their own time until they actually do it.  If a Time Traveler leaves their own time, its not assumed that they will some time return.  Because as to that point, they had not returned.

But they do return to their own times.

AuraTwilight

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2007, 06:37:39 pm »
*head hits the wall* READ the thread before you post in it if you're gonna revive it after several months, for the love of god.

Time doesn't assume anything. If someone leaves their normal time period, the entire timeline assumes he never returns until he actually does. If Bob goes 7 years into the future, history says he's been missing for 7 years. If he had children in those seven years, then they wouldn't exist to greet him when he arrived in the future. However, that would be remedied once he went to his own time.

Leebot

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2007, 10:13:55 pm »
*Cracks knuckles* Time to get back to work.

Okay, here's how things look, now that I come back to it:

1) Time travelers can apparently change the present from the past in many ways, even through seemingly insignificant actions (ie. Porre Mayor).

2) If the universe were inherently self-correcting in all manners related to time travel, the whole defeating-Lavos-to-save-the-world thing suddenly becomes pretty futile. The overall theme of the game is changing history; it wouldn't make sense for there to be a self-correcting mechanic like this, unless it were explicitly stated somewhere in the game or its sequel.

3) The Sun Stone can be brought back in time and placed in the Sun Keep in 65,000,000 BC. In the nearly 65,000,000 years until you can check it again, in 12,000 BC, it isn't disturbed. If history did have a self-correcting mechanism, it would surely have been able to act by then, wouldn't it? A convenient earthquake or cave-in could destroy it or knock it out and into the ocean.

Putting 1, 2, and 3 together, it seems obvious that a self-correcting law regarding time-travel can't be our answer here. But, we then have to explain how both Kino and Marle can travel to the future and meet their descendants. Here, I can think of two possibilities:

1. Partial self-correction - The event of a time traveler exiting the timeline to travel to a different point is the only possible time-traveling event that will cause the universe to try to fill in the gap and correct itself (note that if they go to the past, this will be completely unnoticeable). So, if they go to a future, it will be one that underwent the self-correcting process, but correcting only for their absense.

2. Genetic Averaging - Over the timescales we see the paradox taking effect, the other people contributing to the descendant's ancestry comprise almost all of the contributed genes. The change of only a single person in the past would be such a minor change that the descendant would be virtually no different.

So, let's look at our two cases: Kino leaves 65 million BC, and meets his descendant Marle. The universe has had 65 million years to correct itself, so the Guardia line could easily have been created from a slightly different ancestry. However, with all the generations involved, a single different ancestor 65 million years ago would have no noticeble effect whatsoever. It's possible that Kino's (and maybe Ayla's) place in the ancestry was simply replaced by someone else.

In the second case, of Marle going to the future to meet her eventual descendant, Doan, the same situation basically applies. The Guardia line could have simply been continued by a cousin of hers or something, who would already have pretty similar genes. The timescale isn't nearly as long, but it's still around 50 generations. This means that Doan's ancestry would differ by a minimum of only 1/2^50. 2^50 is on the scale of 10^30, which is much greater than the number of genes any person has. This means that chances are, not even a single gene would be different.

3. Preset Future - This is the other theory I hypothesized earlier, regarding traveling to the future. Basically, if you make a time jump to the future, you come to the future that would have occured had you not left the timestream at that point (that is, the future as if time travel had suddenly stopped working). When they return, the other version is Time-Bastarded out.

This last option now seems the least likely, as you'll note that when Crono & co. leave 1000 AD the first time, their absense is very much noticed. Additionally, this type of mechanic seems to lend itself too easily to paradoxes in the case of repeated time travel.

Theory 2 also faces a problem due to Chaos Theory - a small change in the past has a very good chance of causing large changes in the future in many ways, as the changes ripple out. In the end, I think our best bet is to combine theories 1 & 2. We have genetic averaging coupled with the universe trying to correct for the change. This should account for everything we observe in the game.

Mystic Frog King

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2007, 05:22:27 pm »
*head hits the wall* READ the thread before you post in it if you're gonna revive it after several months, for the love of god.

Time doesn't assume anything. If someone leaves their normal time period, the entire timeline assumes he never returns until he actually does. If Bob goes 7 years into the future, history says he's been missing for 7 years. If he had children in those seven years, then they wouldn't exist to greet him when he arrived in the future. However, that would be remedied once he went to his own time.

1. I read the thread, and 2. On most forums it is not considered 'reviving' provided it is on the first page. I see nothing against posting in this this one. o.o

Nope. When you go forward in time, the time you return will have happened and be recorded presuming you do return.

Provided you return before the events have happened, there is no reason the events will be changes, as the world will go along with the normal flow of time as opposed to your personal timeline, in which it may be years that you spend traveling through time.

Trust me, I've had experience in the area of time-travel debating. I've been arguing over Zelda: Ocarina of Time for years (ugh, what a mess that timeline is).

AuraTwilight

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #38 on: February 16, 2007, 06:10:43 pm »
Quote
1. I read the thread, and 2. On most forums it is not considered 'reviving' provided it is on the first page. I see nothing against posting in this this one. o.o

Nope. When you go forward in time, the time you return will have happened and be recorded presuming you do return.

Provided you return before the events have happened, there is no reason the events will be changes, as the world will go along with the normal flow of time as opposed to your personal timeline, in which it may be years that you spend traveling through time.

Trust me, I've had experience in the area of time-travel debating. I've been arguing over Zelda: Ocarina of Time for years (ugh, what a mess that timeline is).

1. This thread has been over 6 months old. It's reviving.
2. No, in CT, it doesn't assume you go back. It's a fact that's been concluded on this forum for atleast a few years.
3. You missed my point anyway
4. The Ocarina of Time can't be compared to Chrono Trigger. They have two entirelly different, contradicting systems of time travel.

Mystic Frog King

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #39 on: February 16, 2007, 06:15:30 pm »
1. But it does not inconvenience you or any other member of these forums, so I see no reason to be angry.
2. It is not assuming anything, because if you are going to be back you will be back before the time that uour child is conceived, so your line will continue.
3. And your point was?
4. Right. In Ocarina of Time time is "immutable". (depending on whether you are a Splitist or a single-timeliner, I suppose) Here it is not. But that does not effect this matter and this is certainly a case where the two systems are similar.

Kyronea

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #40 on: February 16, 2007, 06:24:02 pm »
1. But it does not inconvenience you or any other member of these forums, so I see no reason to be angry.
2. It is not assuming anything, because if you are going to be back you will be back before the time that uour child is conceived, so your line will continue.
3. And your point was?
4. Right. In Ocarina of Time time is "immutable". (depending on whether you are a Splitist or a single-timeliner, I suppose) Here it is not. But that does not effect this matter and this is certainly a case where the two systems are similar.
For point number one, I have to agree with the Mystic Frog King. Given what I've observed of this forum, not too many topics around here are all that active at once. As such, it's not really reviving so much as continuing. Believe me, I hate forum necromancy as much as anyone, but in this case, it's not really necromancy.

For point number two, AuraTwilight is correct. The entire premise of the series is that you can change literally anything. When you leave a specific point in the timeline, the timeline continues as if you are no longer there. That's how things work in the Chronoverse and why we have so much trouble resolving this paradox(though I believe Leebot has an excellent explanation.)

I have no idea what AuraTwilight's point was, and no, this is not similiar to the Ocarina of Time.

Seriously, you two have been at each other's throats since MFK registered here. What's going on, if I may attempt to mediate so as to avoid other intervention?

Mystic Frog King

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2007, 08:45:20 am »
1. But it does not inconvenience you or any other member of these forums, so I see no reason to be angry.
2. It is not assuming anything, because if you are going to be back you will be back before the time that uour child is conceived, so your line will continue.
3. And your point was?
4. Right. In Ocarina of Time time is "immutable". (depending on whether you are a Splitist or a single-timeliner, I suppose) Here it is not. But that does not effect this matter and this is certainly a case where the two systems are similar.
For point number two, AuraTwilight is correct. The entire premise of the series is that you can change literally anything. When you leave a specific point in the timeline, the timeline continues as if you are no longer there. That's how things work in the Chronoverse and why we have so much trouble resolving this paradox(though I believe Leebot has an excellent explanation.)

Seriously, you two have been at each other's throats since MFK registered here. What's going on, if I may attempt to mediate so as to avoid other intervention?

But if you do return, you have already. x.x It's confusing. But this element is shared by OoT, I'm pretty sure.

I dunno o.o

Chrono'99

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Kyronea

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2007, 01:40:36 pm »


But if you do return, you have already. x.x It's confusing. But this element is shared by OoT, I'm pretty sure.

I dunno o.o
Time Error. Time Error is the answer to this problem. The gates do not take you to specific days or a time of day. They take you to a specific era year, that's all. Time flows on both sides of the gate, the flow of which can be altered due to gravitational effects, the rotation of the planet--hence why 65,000,000 B.C. would differ greatly in its flow of time from all the other eras--ect ect. So, basically, if you leave on January 2nd, 1000 A.D, headed for 600 A.D., you would arrive a few seconds later, same time, January 2nd, 600 A.D. Presumably the same applies to the Epoch, as there has been nothing shown otherwise. The only gate and time era accessible that shows a difference is the Day of Lavos gate, which apparently links to the specific day and time Lavos appeared in 1999. As such, it would presumeably be a red gate were we to see it as a gate rather than a light pillar.

Mystic Frog King

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Re: Guardia Royal Line Paradox
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2007, 02:56:19 pm »
And? Is there anything to suggest that the quest takes so long that it is impossible for Ayla to come back and get pregnant? (Forget the inns)