The interesting and informative links and resources thread.

[FaustWolf]

Cosmic Journeys, huh? I shall have to bookmark this.

[utunnels]

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/6411/designing_better_levels_through_.php

This is an interesting read.

[tushantin]

Okay, I might be the last one to know this (knowing from the Compendium members' massive brains and knowledge), but in case I wasn't here's something... unsettling.

...Snorri's collections also contained elements that seem to be cribbed from the hot new religion, like Odin sacrificing himself by hanging on a tree and getting pierced by a spear. In fact, some buzzkill scholars have even suggested that Ragnarok itself is no more than a retelling of the end of paganism under Christianity, or even a co-opted version of the Biblical book of Revelation.

...So... Baldur was based on Jesus after all...

[Syna]

Not exactly, tush. It's possible, but we just don't know. Baldur does match the profile of a so-called Dying God, affiliated as he is with the sun, and plenty of gods fit that profile; Jesus is but one example. (Of course how closely he resembles those figures and whether that matters are different thoughts entirely.) 

On the "it could be true" side, there is a very different version of Baldur's death in Anglo-Saxon mythology. The Anglo-Saxon myths lack Loki, and that's part of it, no doubt, but it's also completely devoid of the martyrdom aspect of the Edda version. And it is suspect that Ragnarok is apocalyptic when systems similar to the Norse ones tend to be cyclic (Persephone, Dionysos etc. come back again every spring, the death and rebirth of Osiris is ritually re-enacted as the year goes on, etc. etc.). Snorri was definitely a Christian re-telling indigenous stories and one must certainly read the Eddas with that in mind.

[Thought]

Don't worry Tush, Cracked is spouting gibberish. For one, Snorri didn't write both Eddas (this was an old mis-attribution that has been corrected for ages, so it is always surprising to see still see it). While the surviving copy of the older Edda (called the Proetic Edda or Elder Edda) is indeed from the 13th century, that text is a copy of other texts which were in turn written versions of oral traditions. Aspects of both Eddas have been confirmed as predating the 13th century through early sagas, other texts, other histories, and folklore. This isn't to say that there were no influences from Christianity on Norse mythology, but there is no actual evidence of this beyond similarities (but that would be like saying that Norse mythology is just dressed up Roman mythology because again, there are similarities). Odin hanging from Yggdrasil is almost certainly original Norse. In all likelihood, so was Ragnarok (Odin is well attested to be untrustworthy because he often gave victory to the lesser military force so that he could take the better soldiers back to Valhalla so as to prepare for war with the ettins). These probably took on additional layers and meaning, but events were probably not created where there were none already.

[tushantin]

Not exactly, tush. It's possible, but we just don't know. Baldur does match the profile of a so-called Dying God, affiliated as he is with the sun, and plenty of gods fit that profile; Jesus is but one example. (Of course how closely he resembles those figures and whether that matters are different thoughts entirely.) 

XD I'm not just talking about their deaths, but also their second coming! If I'm not mistaken (and I might be wrong, because I forgotten where I've read it) after the apocalypse is through Baldur would rise from his grave, meet up with Thor's children and recreate paradise.

On the "it could be true" side, there is a very different version of Baldur's death in Anglo-Saxon mythology. The Anglo-Saxon myths lack Loki, and that's part of it, no doubt, but it's also completely devoid of the martyrdom aspect of the Edda version. And it is suspect that Ragnarok is apocalyptic when systems similar to the Norse ones tend to be cyclic (Persephone, Dionysos etc. come back again every spring, the death and rebirth of Osiris is ritually re-enacted as the year goes on, etc. etc.). Snorri was definitely a Christian re-telling indigenous stories and one must certainly read the Eddas with that in mind.

With the spread of Christianity it wouldn't be surprising if the Scandinavian myths simply morphed overtime or even wiped out, clouding the actual tales, just as they happened with the Irish/Welsh folktales. I wonder, which are the most ancient texts from Scandinavian history?

Don't worry Tush, Cracked is spouting gibberish. For one, Snorri didn't write both Eddas (this was an old mis-attribution that has been corrected for ages, so it is always surprising to see still see it). While the surviving copy of the older Edda (called the Proetic Edda or Elder Edda) is indeed from the 13th century, that text is a copy of other texts which were in turn written versions of oral traditions. Aspects of both Eddas have been confirmed as predating the 13th century through early sagas, other texts, other histories, and folklore. This isn't to say that there were no influences from Christianity on Norse mythology, but there is no actual evidence of this beyond similarities (but that would be like saying that Norse mythology is just dressed up Roman mythology because again, there are similarities). Odin hanging from Yggdrasil is almost certainly original Norse. In all likelihood, so was Ragnarok (Odin is well attested to be untrustworthy because he often gave victory to the lesser military force so that he could take the better soldiers back to Valhalla so as to prepare for war with the ettins). These probably took on additional layers and meaning, but events were probably not created where there were none already.

Hah, that was exactly the thing I was looking for. Thanks, Thought!

[Syna]

Ohh. Maybe my version of the Poetic Edda overstates how revised the poems potentially are-- it even suggests that Lokasenna may be a Christian invention, which strikes me as really speculative given what you said, Thought.  

And tush, they do have a second coming. Perhaps you're defining that by more rigid terms than I am, but Dionysos and Osiris, for instance, do return in some form (Dionysos through his forms Bromios and Iacchus, and Osiris through Horus). The whole schtick with the Dying Gods is that they come back when the land is fertile again (or to redeem it, or something along those lines).

[Thought]

Really? The Lokasenna? I hadn't heard that one. Nothing about the Lokasenna seems particularly seems particularly Christian, but it is certainly possible that it was late and/or Christian in origin. Again, I am not claiming that there weren't influences: mostly, I am just claiming that such influences don't dominate the work like the Cracked article claims (and that generally we don't know where those influences actually were).

That is more or less what I mean about aspects of it being confirmed. We know that magical use of runes were quite old (from Tacitus's Germania), so the runic section of the Havamal probably at least had a real basis. Likewise, we know that hanging was a legitimate means of sacrifice, and it seems to be that hanging was a means of dedicating a sacrifice to Odin, and it seems that one way to sacrifice was through sympathetic actions (driving a nail through the forehead for Thor because Thor was injured there, ripping off an arm for Tyr because Tyr lost his hand), so Odin hanging himself fits well enough that one doesn't need to invoke Christianity to explain it (particularly considering that this isn't the first time Odin sacrificed part of himself to gain knowledge and no one tries to claim him drinking from Mimir's well is a Christ analogy).

[tushantin]

Want to improve your cognitive capabilities and master your own procrastination? Make like a Buddhist and meditate.

And I do mean 'Meditate like a Buddhist', because meditation itself has various types. Each type has its own benefits.

[Syna]

Nothing about the Lokasenna seems particularly seems particularly Christian, but it is certainly possible that it was late and/or Christian in origin.

The poem's introduction bases this mostly on the fact that it rampantly makes fun of the gods, but hmm, I guess I wouldn't put it past the Norse to think of their deities in humorous terms. Loki making fun of all of them is certainly not any graver than his bearing Odin's horse, or Thor dressing up as a lady. It seems too widespread to be a general Christian insertion.

Again, I am not claiming that there weren't influences: mostly, I am just claiming that such influences don't dominate the work like the Cracked article claims (and that generally we don't know where those influences actually were).

Ahh, this makes sense, and the Cracked article was definitely misleading in this respect. So it is hard to tell; we just know that most of it is "genuinely" Norse.

[tushantin]

http://www.engadget.com/2011/07/23/giant-body-of-water-found-in-space-black-hole-claims-it-was-jus/

XDDD This is truly divine.*

*(What the religious consider divine and what I consider divine are two identical but different things, so don't troll meh)

[tushantin]

http://www.cracked.com/article_18649_5-ridiculous-ancient-beliefs-that-turned-out-to-be-true.html?wa_user1=1&wa_user2=History&wa_user3=article&wa_user4=flashback

[tushantin]

Do you wanna
a) be immortal
b) live in a Ghost in the Shell like universe?

http://www.cracked.com/article_18964_5-ways-science-could-make-us-immortal.html

Here ya go!

[Mr Bekkler]

I love the references in Cracked articles. This one comes from tushantin's link above, when the author claims "no one reliable has ever cloned a human" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C3%ABlism

They almost had me until the swastika.

[Lord J Esq]

At the same time, most of those Cracked articles and some of the other links and resources in this thread are a distraction from the intention of this thread. Consider using the "WTF? Check this link Out!" thread instead.