The $%*! frustration thread

[ZeaLitY]

Where do people get the idea that religious differences can be reconciled?

Simple. We're not all close minded. According to the Jewish faith, only they will be accepted into heaven. Same with Islam, Buddhism and to a much lesser extent Hinduism.

That's for the next world though. There's no reason I can't have a Jewish friend, despite the fact that he thinks I'm going to Hell.

"You're my bud, except according to my deepest worldviews and beliefs, you belong in hell forever. No offense."

Absurd. You don't seem to have much personal dignity.

Besides, I don't really think they are going to Hell. I think that any person who behaves responsibly and does good in the world should be invited to Heaven. That's what my church preaches, and that's what I believe.

Yes, this is what your lotto ticket for the afterlife states. You'd better hope one of the larger denominations' gods doesn't turn out to be The Real God™, or else you'll be going to hell as they believe. Oops!

We all vaguely have the same ideas. Be good; don't murder; and keep some faith. What difference does it make what we call God? I know some people of some groups of all religions did and still do put an emphasis on that, and they are dumb and a butt(Really love that line, Kid123).

"Vague" is right, because religious ideas and schools of thought are wildly disparate, both concerning the soul and the practical operation of humanity. We eat pigs, but some religious people don't. We're supposed to refrain from working on Sunday, but a slew of others don't have any problem with it. Things like these are codified into law and upheld through tradition all over the world; many cultural differences have their root in religious practicum. But I agree, some vague ideas are the same, like "women are inferior to men" and "non-believers are inferior and are going to hell."

The majority of us, just don't really care. And Zeality, as an atheist, you're not really in a position to judge our reasoning for reconciliation, because without being in our position, you don't understand.

Yes, it's obvious you don't care about several things, such as the plight of women, the state of the world and the environment, or your own "immortal soul", since you have such a blase attitude towards the entire thing. There are much more sincerely religious people than you who at least make an effort to confirm their God is The Real God™ or understand their theology; the LDS church's finest recruiting technique is even asking people to pray to God and confirm that the LDS faith is the real one, and that other Christian sects and religions are apostate. But you can't even muster this effort! "Eh, maybe any of us are right, but we really don't care; if I get tortured in hell for an eternity, pfft. Ditto for my friends; if they get their skin peeled off while being boiled in acid in hell, meh." Aw, charming!

[Truthordeal]

You see? You're spewing the same nonsense and diverting from the point again.

I never talked about any of that stuff. As far as I'm concerned, that happens with religion or not. Look to the Soviet Union or China. Women's rights there are deplorable, especially when compared to America. Environment? Chernobyl. That's all I have to say about that. And my immortal soul is nothing for you to concern yourself with, as you don't believe I have one.

I was talking about religion, pure and simple. More specifically, religious reconciliation. You condemn the hell out of religion for not being open minded, then you mock us when we are. With you, its a never ending game, full of twisted logic and malformed reasoning.

I don't have to live up to your expectations of my faith, because quite frankly, you know nothing about it. You think you do, in fact you've probably read the Bible, if only to pick out which quotes suit your purpose. But apparently you've been around too many Bible-thumpers in your life time, because you know nothing about the people or the practices.

We don't go around pushing women to their knees and blowing up abortion clinics. Fringe nuts do that, but that has nothing to do with me. Nothing.

And until you learn something about it, you have no right to judge-Well, I shouldn't say that. The Constitution says you can express whatever opinion you have, no matter how far up your ass you have to stick your head to get to it. But if that's the case, you'll simply end up sounding like the idiot that mispronounces Dostoevsky's name at a literary summit.  

[ZeaLitY]

You see? You're spewing the same nonsense and diverting from the point again.

I never talked about any of that stuff. As far as I'm concerned, that happens with religion or not. Look to the Soviet Union or China. Women's rights there are deplorable, especially when compared to America. Environment? Chernobyl. That's all I have to say about that. And my immortal soul is nothing for you to concern yourself with, as you don't believe I have one.

Religion facilitates human evil. How much more would people care about the planet if it weren't simply a grand stage for the testing of souls, said in the Bible to be the complete dominion of man anyway?

I was talking about religion, pure and simple. More specifically, religious reconciliation. You condemn the hell out of religion for not being open minded, then you mock us when we are. With you, its a never ending game, full of twisted logic and malformed reasoning.

You missed the point: religious reconciliation is impossible, because religions fault one another to varying degrees. Most condemn non-believers to hell, and the rest hold the others to be wrong about life and how it should be lived. These are sweeping differences in worldview that cannot be seriously reconciled, and your idea that differences of life, death, and the immortal soul can be shrugged off among pals betrays your intellectual insincerity. You don't care to think much about your own theology.

I don't have to live up to your expectations of my faith, because quite frankly, you know nothing about it. You think you do, in fact you've probably read the Bible, if only to pick out which quotes suit your purpose. But apparently you've been around too many Bible-thumpers in your life time, because you know nothing about the people or the practices.

Unlike you, I was a serious religious person; it wasn't simply something to make me popular in high school through Fellowship of Christian Athletes, or something to bide my time with. I read the Bible and the Book of Mormon; I attended six hours of church each week; I strove to abide by the commandments and doctrine of the church; I attended youth conferences and service projects; I prepared to be a missionary; I cried watching my church's religious movies and propaganda; I went tracting as a home teacher and envoy for my youth group; I laid on hands to ordain quorum subordinates; I prayed at the deathbed of a dying woman; and I even defended my beliefs on theological grounds in confrontations with other Christians. Anyone serious about religion knows that there is no reconciliation; almost every church holds itself to be the one true church, and has different rules for living and thinking. But you aren't serious about religion. As it is with most people, religion is a convenient cop-out for finding meaning in life and dealing with fear of death, as well as an avenue for reinforcing the status quo of culture and socialization.

We don't go around pushing women to their knees and blowing up abortion clinics. Fringe nuts do that, but that has nothing to do with me. Nothing.

You have already badly acquitted yourself of your arguments in the Independence Day and Fuck Sexism thread, in which you displayed a shocking ignorance of sexist abuse and other ills. I'm afraid no one will believe you now when you say something like this.

[Truthordeal]

Religion facilitates human evil.

There you go. You refuse to answer any of my charges on secularism by throwing your head in the sand, and shouting a pre-moulded overused reply. Despite the millions that secularism has murdered, the millions of women oppressed, all of the gays killed, and all of the damage to the Earth in the process, religion is the only one that breeds evil.

In fact, I'll do you one better. I won't just say this, I'll prove it.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3398379/Black-Book-of-Communism

That is a link to the Black Book of Communism, a list of the millions killed by secular government. And that was in the last 92 years.

Just as you make the absurd assumption that there is no religious reconciliation, I can make my own assumption that you cannot created a successful democracy based on pure secularism or religion. The American model, where you have a combination of religious and secular interest groups, with zealots on both sides, seems to result in less casualties, less oppression and less destruction of our natural resources. That is the model I support.

[Samopoznanie]

Unlike you, I was a serious religious person; *snippity snip* ...culture and socialization.

[Athiest speaking here] Just curious, was there a particular moment or event that spurred you to our side of the fence?

Converts, I find always tend to be a bit more hardcore and uptight about things, whether we're talking athiesm, judaism, christianity, islam etc.

[Delta Dragon]

Besides, I don't really think they are going to Hell. I think that any person who behaves responsibly and does good in the world should be invited to Heaven. That's what my church preaches, and that's what I believe.

Mind if I ask what kind of church that is?

[Truthordeal]

I'm not sure of the exact name of the denomination. Some form of Methodism. We're probably a bit more conservative(nonpolitical) than Unitarians, but a lot more liberal(again, np) than Baptists.

[Lord J Esq]

We're going to need another topic split at this rate... 

Truthordeal: Unsurprisingly, you seem not to understand Jewish "eschatology" very well, if I might borrow that word for a minute. Jews don't believe in a Heaven in the Christian sense of the word, and they certainly don't believe in the Christian Hell. You would be ill-advised to tell nonreligious people to mind their own business when you yourself don't even know what your business is. I think you would only benefit from the presence of people better-informed than you in these discussions.

ZeaLitY has a point, however indelicately he articulated it: Religious reconciliation is a contradiction in many cases, because their divine premises are mutually exclusive and there are ancient and profound cultural enmities at work. In modern times, part of the decline of monotheistic religion in the West has been a movement toward nondenominational and interfaith religious cooperation. That's great; I'd like to see more of it! But it is deeply hypocritical from a theological point of view. Essentially, these "let's get along together" people are having their cake and eating it too by subscribing to an exclusive religion and then cherrypicking the parts of it they don't want to follow. They don't realize it, but this undermines their credibility when it comes to dictating from a religious standpoint how society should operate, because they allow themselves to change the rulebook that they're working from.

That's progress; that's how monotheism as a dominant cultural force will pass into history...but it's hypocritical. The smarter thing for such people to do would be to toss aside all this religious dressing and focus on the underlying principles and sentiments that people find compelling. Smarter...but not easier, I guess.

[ZeaLitY]

Unlike you, I was a serious religious person; *snippity snip* ...culture and socialization.

[Athiest speaking here] Just curious, was there a particular moment or event that spurred you to our side of the fence?

Converts, I find always tend to be a bit more hardcore and uptight about things, whether we're talking athiesm, judaism, christianity, islam etc.

It was after I had finally been exposed to atheism and arguments here on the Compendium; I had previously regarded atheists as militant asses complaining about nothing. Lord J and others gave me the reason, but I needed time. And that time came when I was sitting in a youth group meeting while one of the most exuberantly religious people at my church gave a talk on what exactly would happen on Judgment Day. The level of detail was so precise that at some point, something inside snapped, and I realized it was all a lot of shit.

religion is the only one that breeds evil.

I'd like to know where I'm quoted as saying religion is the root of all evil. If you notice, I choose my words carefully. I say that religion amplifies evil, is complicit in evil, and facilitates evil, but nowhere do I make a generalization about it as the source. For the record, you've been ignoring almost all of my arguments, so I'm amused at being accused of passing over yours.

[KebreI]

I am so torn, Adam just passed the first stage of auditions on American Idol. Preforming is his dream n' all and I don't want to impede on it, but that bastard can't keep doing things like this!

[ZaichikArky]

^ Uh, what? Is Adam a friend of yours? That reminded me of the Adam last season. He was really fabulous.

I'm really upset about perl... like anything else is new. I feel like I wasted the ENTIRE day doing nothing productive.

Also, maybe I'm going to have to move because the landlords are trying to sell the place, and my dad thinks if they do that, the rent will increase. We've had the same rent since we moved in 3 years ago and we've been through 3 landlords and it hasn't increased, but who knows. I don't particularly want to move...

[Thought]

Zaich, unfortunately it is fairly common for rent to increase every year (even in economic downturns). For example, even though my then-current rent was more than similar apartments in my complex were going for to new renters, my complex wanted to increase my rent by a nominal amount (less than $20 a month). It is unfortunately a nationally owned chain so intelligent thought seldom enters their actions.



Logical Fallacies frustrate me, such as straw man arguments, hasty generalizations, appeals to emotions, and slippery slope arguments.

[Truthordeal]

Housing market here is still developing, so we get smacked with rent increases every year. But, since the housing market is in a slump right now, now would be a good time to invest in buying a home.

You don't get rate increases, you don't have to worry about some damn landlord lording over your shoulder, and once you get your mortgage taken care of, all you have to worry about is property taxes, which aren't too terribly crippling.

Property taxes usually go to fund education, btw.

[Lord J Esq]

Logical Fallacies frustrate me, such as straw man arguments, hasty generalizations, appeals to emotions, and slippery slope arguments.

It'd be interesting to visit a universe where the inhabitants were bound by physics never to state a logical fallacy. It'd sure be a hell of a lot quieter. I think their version of Fox News would be a test pattern.

Say...when's the last time anybody actually saw a live test pattern?

[KebreI]

My old work just sent me my paycheck even though I didn't work at all. Life isn't like Monopoly so I can't keep it, huh.